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#60 by SeeShells on 22 Oct, 2019 03:37
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Thanks for the report.kenny008,
Sorry.
I'm quiet but that doesn't mean I've quit this quest to do work on a hybrid EMStyle drive. It's taken a while to save/borrow enough to get this project going. Just this last weekend we started to put up the frame after laying down the foundation for my new lab 12ft x 30ft. Getting it ready adding in insulation, wiring, security and then my equipment is going to take a couple more months.
As they say "the fat lady hasn't sung yet".
My Very Best,
Shell
Hi SeaShells,
Glad to learn you have not retired.
You have reviewed Roger's detailed Flight Thruster engineering report?
http://www.emdrive.com/flighthrusterreportissue2.pdf
It is all there. I'm building several of these thrusters, RF systems & test rigs plus have 4 verifiers willing to give it a go on the supplied test rig & then on their own test rig.
If you are willing to be involved, the door is open.
Right now I have my hands full but I'll review the attached report and let you know in the future. As you are somewhat aware what I'm doing isn't like Rodgers design.
Shell -
#61 by TheTraveller on 22 Oct, 2019 03:50
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Thanks for the report.kenny008,
Sorry.
I'm quiet but that doesn't mean I've quit this quest to do work on a hybrid EMStyle drive. It's taken a while to save/borrow enough to get this project going. Just this last weekend we started to put up the frame after laying down the foundation for my new lab 12ft x 30ft. Getting it ready adding in insulation, wiring, security and then my equipment is going to take a couple more months.
As they say "the fat lady hasn't sung yet".
My Very Best,
Shell
Hi SeaShells,
Glad to learn you have not retired.
You have reviewed Roger's detailed Flight Thruster engineering report?
http://www.emdrive.com/flighthrusterreportissue2.pdf
It is all there. I'm building several of these thrusters, RF systems & test rigs plus have 4 verifiers willing to give it a go on the supplied test rig & then on their own test rig.
If you are willing to be involved, the door is open.
Right now I have my hands full but I'll review the attached report and let you know in the future. As you are somewhat aware what I'm doing isn't like Rodgers design.
Shell
Hi SeeShells,
Understood.
However this is the 1st time Roger has placed into the public domain exacting details to build, excite & test a 325mN//kWrf Flight Thruster.
Before all builds were based on guess.
Now we have detailed engineering specs.
He even reveals the coupler design, a loop, location and how it is tuned.
Interesting the small end is flat while the big end has a curve, but not what any of us thought.
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#62 by rfmwguy on 23 Oct, 2019 20:40
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Quote
In other words, you have no data, and no specific suggestions, or anything of value to add to the thread. You point to non-existent unspecified papers as your only evidence that further research on the emDrive has any chance of producing a useful device.
Instead of simply asking if rfmwguy has anything that would be useful for the discussions you offer your thoughts in a biased negative confrontational way.
It should be asked if rfmwguy has some links to revelant papers that would help us all understand what he is trying to convey. You're a very sharp person and it shows that you have a good background in physics but we all can learn and none of us knows everything.
Shell
Glad you asked the right question. The emdrive and its variants use a momentum imbalance to achieve minimal propulsion. The momentum imbalance is created by directional mass at near light speed being slowed and returned into the directional "accelerator" stream, thus. Using photons, the principle of photonic momentum is discussed here: https://orbit.dtu.dk/files/134279937/1603.07224.pdf Sorry to break anyone's bubble that claims to know all about photons.
Now this is only the beginning. Higher mass ions are now being considered: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20190029657.pdf
For others, let them cling to their dusty equations and pretend to be arbiters of this forum.
When you reactivate your testing, remember...directional speed and mass variations are the secret. Its alot easier for us to work with photons than ions...but you're resourceful
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#63 by meberbs on 23 Oct, 2019 21:16
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Glad you asked the right question. The emdrive and its variants use a momentum imbalance to achieve minimal propulsion. The momentum imbalance is created by directional mass at near light speed being slowed and returned into the directional "accelerator" stream, thus. Using photons, the principle of photonic momentum is discussed here: https://orbit.dtu.dk/files/134279937/1603.07224.pdf Sorry to break anyone's bubble that claims to know all about photons.
You aren't breaking any bubbles. Light passing through a medium travels slower than the speed of light due to interactions with the medium which involves moving charges in the medium around. There are multiple ways to simplify this problem to avoid having to model every single atom directly with QED. You have to be careful to not get confused by these models as to how they effect momentum conservation, because there are simplifications in these models, and at the end of the day, everything still obeys conservation of momentum. That is part of the conclusions of the paper, as they show that some of the matter of the medium must move along with the light pulse for momentum conservation to hold. The paper shows that when you go through the full details of the interactions and forces in the charges in the medium you recover momentum conservation correctly as you would expect from the fact that Maxwell's equations conserve momentum. The results of this paper should be intuitive (especially in retrospect) for someone who knows what they are talking about, but it is still nice to see it worked out with this detail.Now this is only the beginning. Higher mass ions are now being considered: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20190029657.pdf
See the helical engine thread in this section. The problems with that concept are explained there multiple times over.For others, let them cling to their dusty equations and pretend to be arbiters of this forum.
So do you have any suggestions for methods to magically vary the mass of things? Because the first link you provided concludes that momentum conservation works, and mass doesn't just come and go from nowhere, and the second ends with an admission that the author is not an expert, and there may be math errors. These errors have since been pointed out.
When you reactivate your testing, remember...directional speed and mass variations are the secret. Its alot easier for us to work with photons than ions...but you're resourceful
You continue to claim that there are problems with Maxwell's equations, but you have not pointed any out yet. -
#64 by kenny008 on 23 Oct, 2019 23:58
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Regurgitating accepted theories of the past are part of the reason there has been stagnation. Use maxwell for what its intended for, a series of balancing equations in a massless universe of pure energy.
Hard data? Perhaps you need to dig deeper. The secret of the emdrive is not contained in a maxwell equation. In their time, it was beyond their understanding. I could point you to some recent papers that are getting close...very close. But that would be cheating.
I suppose I could spend a few weeks sifting out the "sporty" theories that are out there (there are over 55,000 entries for "emdrive theory"). I'm not too proud to admit I'm too "lazy" to run through that list. If you can point me toward the good papers, I won't consider it cheating.
I have followed this thread for years, and I've yet to see a theory that is compatible with those stagnant, accepted theories AND explains the many grams of force that TT is proposing. Yes, there are some that seem close, but they don't seem to be able to match experimental data. Again, if you don't mind pointing me in the right direction, I'm happy to read up.
Honestly, I'd much rather see experiments that show an effect that is above the noise floor and has eliminated error sources. I'd be ecstatic to see hard, unequivocal evidence that the emdrive works! We can then spend our efforts on updating those old, outdated Maxwell and GR equations. Just like the theories, the experiments always seem to be "very close." TT says he has a device that will be unequivocal (10's of grams of force). I can't understand why he isn't doing this on his own, recording data, and broadcasting it to the world.
What experiments do you think are the closest to showing the effect? I'd value your input.
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#65 by JohnFornaro on 24 Oct, 2019 12:48
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Higher mass ions are now being considered...
Thank you very much for that very helpful link. It really clears up the matter:
"Basic concept is unproven"
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20190029657.pdf
From:
https://orbit.dtu.dk/files/134279937/1603.07224.pdf
"The possibility that the optical force eld of the light pulse would drive forward an atomic mass density wave (MDW) and the related kinetic and elastic energies is neglected."
Took a g on MDW, and there's scant info other than what these quys are working on. Here's a visualization of what they are saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkQ7yEkN5i0&feature=youtu.be
The "medium block" mentioned in the article and shown in the video does not move. I believe this effect will have more utility in explaining the spiral arms of galaxies.
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#66 by rfmwguy on 24 Oct, 2019 13:23
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Since the science world revolves around balancing formulae, it's best to explain it this way...(inertial) mass increases the closer you get to C. That increase must be provided from somewhere. That somewhere is the spacetime surrounding it. It looses inertial mass which many refer to as folded space...tho that's not a clear description, a bubble suffices. The emdrive "falls" into this bubble. Now, the frustum acts like a venturi which accelerates energy within, thus an inertial mass imbalance. The problem has been the limited amount of acceleration and mass, thus keeping results barely above the noise. Ions are the next step I think. So ends my personal theory...the Marshall Flight group are on the right track imho.Higher mass ions are now being considered...
Thank you very much for that very helpful link. It really clears up the matter:
"Basic concept is unproven"
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20190029657.pdf
From:
https://orbit.dtu.dk/files/134279937/1603.07224.pdf
"The possibility that the optical force eld of the light pulse would drive forward an atomic mass density wave (MDW) and the related kinetic and elastic energies is neglected."
Took a g on MDW, and there's scant info other than what these quys are working on. Here's a visualization of what they are saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkQ7yEkN5i0&feature=youtu.be
The "medium block" mentioned in the article and shown in the video does not move. I believe this effect will have more utility in explaining the spiral arms of galaxies. -
#67 by edzieba on 24 Oct, 2019 15:04
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Maybe it can be propelled by an oscillating component (such as a cutting blade), acting against an external field...
Propellentless tractor? Completely doable. Remember sitting in your wagon as a child shifting back and forth to scoot it forward a few inches? Same thing. I have this vision of you sitting on your lawn tractor doing the same thing while mowing your lawn.Sorry.
I'm quiet but that doesn't mean I've quit this quest...
Sheesh. What are you sorry about now? Anyhow, I've just gotten my, ahem, propellantless drive tractor running. It pushes against the inertia of the local planetary body.
Shell -
#68 by rfmwguy on 24 Oct, 2019 15:05
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The New Physics as titled for this forum is appropriate. A new way of using conservation of mass/energy... New formulas are needed to define inertial mass aquisition are yet to be accepted in the mainstream. So, set aside maxwell and expand on einstein...define the equations related to inertial mass variability...be sure to avoid the pitfalls of a closed system. The emdrive is not a closed system, it is part of the surrounding spacetime medium. Ad Proxima Centauri...within our lifetimes. If this is not enough to point the way, I cannot help any further. Let's go builders...
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#69 by meberbs on 24 Oct, 2019 16:13
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Since the science world revolves around balancing formulae, it's best to explain it this way...(inertial) mass increases the closer you get to C. That increase must be provided from somewhere. That somewhere is the spacetime surrounding it.
No, it is from the energy used to accelerate it and mass-energy equivalence.It looses inertial mass which many refer to as folded space...tho that's not a clear description, a bubble suffices. The emdrive "falls" into this bubble. Now, the frustum acts like a venturi which accelerates energy within, thus an inertial mass imbalance.
No, this description simply does not make sense. For one thing the relativistic mass depends on reference frame, and all reference frames are equivalent (which we know from experiments such as Michelson-Morley.) Speeding up a particle in one frame slows it in another, so even if your "energy from the vacuum" was true, different frames would predict different results, so your claims are already contradicted by experiment.The problem has been the limited amount of acceleration and mass, thus keeping results barely above the noise. Ions are the next step I think. So ends my personal theory...the Marshall Flight group are on the right track imho.
Again, go read the other thread explaining the problems with those claims. And don't pin it on the entire group, it is a single manager who decided to present his ideas without first getting input from some who knew the subject matter.The New Physics as titled for this forum is appropriate. A new way of using conservation of mass/energy... New formulas are needed to define inertial mass aquisition are yet to be accepted in the mainstream.
Do you have any suggestions for such formulas? Keep in mind they would have to be consistent with existing experiments, which have tested the existing formulas everywhere from velocities of 0 to around 0.99999999 c. (and they work for masssless particles such as photons which travel at c.)So, set aside maxwell and expand on einstein...define the equations related to inertial mass variability..
Maxwell's equations literally have special relativity built into them, so your suggestion here does not make sense..be sure to avoid the pitfalls of a closed system. The emdrive is not a closed system, it is part of the surrounding spacetime medium.
Again, see my other responses to your statements, your suggestion of interactions with "spacetime" doesn't actually make sense and is simply an inconsistent starting point.Ad Proxima Centauri...within our lifetimes. If this is not enough to point the way, I cannot help any further. Let's go builders...
This is not even close to enough, it is a couple of suggestions that are inconsistent with themselves and with experimental data and with no actual formula provided. -
#70 by D_Dom on 25 Oct, 2019 21:23
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Please note all posts need to be useful and worthwhile or they will be removed via moderation.
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#71 by Monomorphic on 26 Oct, 2019 20:05
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Link to Tajmar's IAC paper presented this week:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336824506_The_SpaceDrive_Project_Overview_of_Revolutionary_Propulsion_Efforts_at_TU_Dresden
and this is what he writes about the Emdrive:
The measurement process proceeded by switching the EMDrive into operational mode at two distinct position of the rotating structure (Figure 10). The first measurement was conducted at the starting position at an angular position defined as 0°. With 5
W of power commanded to the EMDrive and a measured power within the cavity of 2 W at a frequency of 1984 MHz at the second resonance frequency, the angular sensor detected a motion of around 1 millidegree. A corresponding thrust cannot
be calculated because the moment of inertia of the system was not calibrated for these preliminary function tests. Raising the commanded power to 10 W lead to a corresponding increase in the angular signal. It is important to mention, that these
measurements have yet to be confirmed in future measurements. Firstly, the rotation balance was not levitating and therefore was not able to rotate at all with μN forces. And secondly, our tilt sensor showed a clear signal change when the EMDrive was on such that the observed rotation is most probably due to a thermal effect that resulted in a small tilt which moved the rotation arm. Details can be found in Ref. [7]. Tests with the frictionless bearing will follow soon. -
#72 by Vlad Kri on 27 Oct, 2019 13:40
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Link to Tajmar's IAC paper presented this week:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336824506_The_SpaceDrive_Project_Overview_of_Revolutionary_Propulsion_Efforts_at_TU_Dresden
Using 5 or 10 watts of power in the experiments is sabotage. I was of a higher opinion of Mr.Tajmar. -
#73 by TheTraveller on 27 Oct, 2019 16:04
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Link to Tajmar's IAC paper presented this week:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336824506_The_SpaceDrive_Project_Overview_of_Revolutionary_Propulsion_Efforts_at_TU_Dresden
Hi Monomorphic,
Couple of early comments as attached:
1) Rotation looks thermal.
2) Tilt is time synced to the RF power on and off.
Which suggests the thermal looking Rotation was not caused by the Tilt.
3) Shows same cavity input power as the reflected power in the circulator.
4) In the 10W figure, with 2.5W into the cavity & 2.5W reflected in the circulator, what happened to the other 5 Watts?
5) The cavity Rf input port seems to be way too close to the big end plate.
6) If the coupler position is accurate and determined by impedance along the inside wall, a 3 pot coupler should not be needed.
Best way to tune the cavity coupler to optimal / lowest reflected power is by inserting a tuning element inside the cavity and using it to adjust what the Rf amp sees.
7) Cavity appears to have flat end plates.
Needs curved end plate/s or operational Q will be very low.
8) With an estimated Qu of 5K, Df 0.65 & 2.5WRf, the predicted thrust would be approx 50uN.
Additional information from [7] as attached.
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#74 by rfmwguy on 29 Oct, 2019 19:33
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Questionable Q and low power of Tajmar's apparently were enough for him to test an extreme sensitivity test bed.
Its in the noise, apparently by design... -
#75 by mwvp on 30 Oct, 2019 01:42
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The paper you cited, at a glance, appears to cover much in the papers by Bradshaw I'm always referring to, although without discussing dispersion. The EM drive cavity is all about dispersion.
Rather than drag mass an Einstein into electromagnetic context, lets just stick with momentum. And mass as angular electromagnetic momentum (although we won't speak of Kg). And maybe if we think in terms of quaternions, we might see mass flow as a 4-flow of momentum in 3-space. A divergence of said flow, radiation pressure.
Now (speaking microwave engineering) if we dissipate a reflected/reverse wave from a circulator, directional coupler or non-reciprocal network as heat, leaving the forward to circulate, well, we'd all be O.K. with that, I guess.
(Ill-disposed trolls notwithstanding!)
Perhaps, we'd even admit, we could leave forward momentum intact while dissipating (exhausting) reverse(negative) electromagnetic momentum.
Now additionally consider Doppler shift in a linear, anisotropic red sideband-cooled cavity is displaced, and we find the red-shifted reverse momentum is dissipated/exhausted as heat, leaving blue-shifted anisotropic-radiation-pressure producing momentum trapped.
I don't see the need to drag mass into it, as long as you can discuss both standing and travelling wave momentum (mass/energy) in 4 dimensions.
I was reluctant to bring this up because I'll be accused of being an advocate of Laithwaite's gyroscopic propulsion. In essence, since mass in 4 dimensional electromagnetic angular momentum, and a rocket then is a diverging 4 dimensional angular momentum flow, the difference is the means of producing the diverging angular momentum current, mass or energy. E=mc^2.
Considering mass/energy as momentum helps illuminate the Abraham and Minkowski momenta issues. Rather than thinking of photons/bosons as particles that mix their energy with fermions, we can consider systems/ensembles of standing and propagating waves.
Glad you asked the right question. The emdrive and its variants use a momentum imbalance to achieve minimal propulsion. The momentum imbalance is created by directional mass at near light speed being slowed and returned into the directional "accelerator" stream, thus. Using photons, the principle of photonic momentum is discussed here: https://orbit.dtu.dk/files/134279937/1603.07224.pdf Sorry to break anyone's bubble that claims to know all about photons.
Now this is only the beginning. Higher mass ions are now being considered: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20190029657.pdf
For others, let them cling to their dusty equations and pretend to be arbiters of this forum.
When you reactivate your testing, remember...directional speed and mass variations are the secret. Its alot easier for us to work with photons than ions...but you're resourceful -
#76 by meberbs on 30 Oct, 2019 02:49
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Questionable Q and low power of Tajmar's apparently were enough for him to test an extreme sensitivity test bed.
Baseless accusations of intellectual dishonesty: not helpful.
Its in the noise, apparently by design...
I did not notice any mention of Q values when skimming through the paper. So what are you basing that "questionable Q" comment on? TT's post has some mentions of Q values, but that is stuff like assertions that end plates need to be curved, which is nonsense, since it has been demonstrated many times over the years that good Q values can exist with flat end plates. Any vestige of logic behind these claims has been killed by the recent cavity design TT hyped up which showed that the end plates were mostly flat, the one just had a bit of a curve near the edges, certainly not what TT has been asserting is necessary for years.
The power is apparently plenty to cause a significant thermal signal, so "more power" would also just be "more errors" until the thermal issue is addressed. -
#77 by TheTraveller on 30 Oct, 2019 08:20
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A discussion on tested EmDrive cavity designs & end plate parallelism requirements.
Please note well the comments on end plate parallelism, which if not achieved, can easily kill Q & thrust.
It is not a linear relationship, as can be seen with the 55k Q new Flight Thruster & the same cavity but 10 years later Q of 33K.
As far as I know Roger never built a dual flat end plate cavity.
Claims of high Q with flat end plates are probably due to self resonance of the coupler with the side walls. Ie Rf energy goes into the side walls around the coupler but not into the cavity. This is why the Flight Thruster uses a separate E field monitoring port, so to ensure the resonance actually transfers Rf energy into the cavity.
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#78 by TheTraveller on 30 Oct, 2019 08:32
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Roger Shawyer's 2019 IAC paper:
"EmDrive Thrust/Load Characteristics. Theory, Experimental Results and a Moon Mission"
is available on
http://www.emdrive.com/IAC2019Paper.pdf
Plus attached.
Enjoy.
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#79 by RERT on 30 Oct, 2019 13:48
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The Kinetic Energy of the PSV at supposed peak velocity is approximately 10^11 Joules, roughly 29 mega Watt-hours. Can you tell us where that energy comes from, given the system conserves energy?
