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#480 by leovinus on 09 Apr, 2021 20:04
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The problem with all this is 1. "I have come up with my own theory of physics to explain my device" is a big pill to swallow. Years down the line, no progress has been made to prove the theory, let alone prove a working device.
2. The device itself is a copper cone. This does not require a multi-million dollar research lab with superconducting magnets to prove it works. A small machine shop should have been able to come up with a test article that can prove it works by now.
Roger telling people that those who couldn't reproduce his results "Got the design wrong" is a huge red flag and echoes similar issues with the 'Dean Drive'.
JSC's Warp Drive Gizmo Fails More TestsQuote[snip ]they reported, thrust could be produced without propellant. Such a contraption would refute core principles of physics as we know them and eliminate a huge barrier to deep space travel by nullifying the need to carry fuel. ... If that sounds too good to be true, well, other scientists had the same thought.
http://nasawatch.com/archives/2021/04/jscs-warp-drive-1.html -
#481 by Star One on 13 Apr, 2021 19:21
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Well he would say that wouldn’t he.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a36098824/emdrive-inventor-defends-failed-tests/ -
#482 by flux_capacitor on 13 Apr, 2021 23:22
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So Shawyer's critics are not about Tajmar's test bed, but the Tajmar (NASA) cavity. Therefore if Shawyer is right, all he has to do is provide Tajmar with his decade-old Flight Thruster and MW equipment, to be tested on the Dresden rig.
But he won't.
So you already know the answer: as the absence of experimental evidence muddled with pitiful handwaving through lowres webcam interviews or recycled powerpoint presentations does not fool anyone anymore, THIS will definitely close the case. -
#483 by TheTraveller on 15 Apr, 2021 15:50
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A few updates on www.emdrive.com
Tajmar test comments:
http://emdrive.com/DresdenTU2021notes.pdf
AltPropulsion video:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=fUadvQGFrng
AltPropulsion Q&A:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FjFVrgnfSXo
Enjoy. -
#484 by gaballard on 20 Apr, 2021 18:07
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For someone purportedly sitting on one of the most important inventions in human history, Shawyer sure spends a lot of time swinging wildly at his detractors instead of proving them wrong.
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#485 by Iggyz on 20 Apr, 2021 21:49
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For someone purportedly sitting on one of the most important inventions in human history, Shawyer sure spends a lot of time swinging wildly at his detractors instead of proving them wrong.
Inventor comes up with a car and wheels. Peer reviewer takes the wheels off and concludes the car can't drive. -
#486 by RotoSequence on 20 Apr, 2021 21:51
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For someone purportedly sitting on one of the most important inventions in human history, Shawyer sure spends a lot of time swinging wildly at his detractors instead of proving them wrong.
Inventor comes up with a car and wheels. Peer reviewer takes the wheels off and concludes the car can't drive.
You can't claim to detail an invention, offer replication methods, and then claim forever that something is missing when they all fail and expect to be taken as anything but a fraud. -
#487 by Iggyz on 20 Apr, 2021 22:02
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Just let Shawyer set up the test and if there is thrust it is up to Tajmar to find out and explain where it comes from. If there is no thrust; end of EmDrive.For someone purportedly sitting on one of the most important inventions in human history, Shawyer sure spends a lot of time swinging wildly at his detractors instead of proving them wrong.
Inventor comes up with a car and wheels. Peer reviewer takes the wheels off and concludes the car can't drive.
You can't claim to detail an invention, offer replication methods, and then claim forever that something is missing when they all fail and expect to be taken as anything but a fraud. -
#488 by edzieba on 21 Apr, 2021 08:35
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Inventor comes up with a ground vehicle that consumes no fuel. Inventor declares it can drive, but will not show it to anyone outside their own private roadway that nobody is allowed to bring inclinometers onto, will not let anyone else drive it, and will not ship it to anyone else to test on their measured-to-be-flat-and-level roads. When others ask how to make their own ground vehicle, no instructions are provided, though said vehicle is supposedly extremely mechanically and electrically simple. When others attempt to use the fragments of description to make one anyway, inventor declares they have made it wrong (often contradicting past claims about the vehicle design), but continues to not provide any instructions.For someone purportedly sitting on one of the most important inventions in human history, Shawyer sure spends a lot of time swinging wildly at his detractors instead of proving them wrong.
Inventor comes up with a car and wheels. Peer reviewer takes the wheels off and concludes the car can't drive.
Inventor has been at this for over a decade, with as of yet no independent replications or independent testing. Some still are not convinced inventors road may just be sloping downhill. -
#489 by goran d on 21 Apr, 2021 12:49
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According to a certain model of gravity, a "free energy" device on orbit will cause runaway auto-rotation of the earth. If on the surface it seems to be safe although not by a large margin. If such devices are used, they should be pulsed and moved against the rotation of the earth during the "operational" pulse to avoid the auto rotation. And cannot be used on spacecrafts in orbit.
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#490 by Frogstar_Robot on 21 Apr, 2021 13:43
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I'm willing to be patient and take the long-term view that it's possible we're not at all understanding the mechanism at work.
I think it is the other way round, Shawyer didn't stumble on a working mechanism which he subsequently sought to explain. He came up with a theory and then attempted to create a device to exploit. It seems though there is actually no working mechanism, so there's really nothing that needs explaining.
Roger observed an unexpected propulsion effect in a military satellite he was working on.
Developed a theory & a 1st swipe design.
Approached the company he was working with it.
Was told there was no budget to develop new propulsion systems for 10 years.
Resigned, took it home and built the "Experimental EmDrive" in his garage.
UK MOD came on board & funded the "Demonstrator EmDrive" plus a team to develop a theory.
Ah thanks, wasn't aware of the exact history.
It actually sounds a lot like Steorn and Orbo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn.
They observed an unexpected effect while building wind turbines
Then they claim it is some new effect, but at the same time claim it is not new physics
Everyone else who examines the design says it won't work
Everyone else who tests experimentally says it doesn't work
After a lot of time and money is spent, nothing is ever demonstrated to work.
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#491 by Iggyz on 22 Apr, 2021 18:03
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Shawyer not letting Tajmar test his own EmDrive is new to me. A link to the source would be nice.
Inventor comes up with a ground vehicle that consumes no fuel. Inventor declares it can drive, but will not show it to anyone outside their own private roadway that nobody is allowed to bring inclinometers onto, will not let anyone else drive it, and will not ship it to anyone else to test on their measured-to-be-flat-and-level roads. When others ask how to make their own ground vehicle, no instructions are provided, though said vehicle is supposedly extremely mechanically and electrically simple. When others attempt to use the fragments of description to make one anyway, inventor declares they have made it wrong (often contradicting past claims about the vehicle design), but continues to not provide any instructions.For someone purportedly sitting on one of the most important inventions in human history, Shawyer sure spends a lot of time swinging wildly at his detractors instead of proving them wrong.
Inventor comes up with a car and wheels. Peer reviewer takes the wheels off and concludes the car can't drive.
Inventor has been at this for over a decade, with as of yet no independent replications or independent testing. Some still are not convinced inventors road may just be sloping downhill. -
#492 by goran d on 26 Apr, 2021 17:11
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The reason Shawyer won't let Tajmar use his device is because it will be split in "half" in the test room, it would be "half" an EMdrive (as in not present in the "mirrorverse").
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#493 by TheTraveller on 26 Apr, 2021 18:53
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The reason Shawyer won't let Tajmar use his device is because it will be split in "half" in the test room, it would be "half" an EMdrive (as in not present in the "mirrorverse").
Hi Goran,
It is my understanding that Roger offered to loan Tajmar an old Flight Thruster to test.
But Tajmar had to build the Rf system & balance beam test rig that Roger uses.
And had to test it as per Roger's instructions.
As far as I understand the situation, that offer was not taken up.
It is my understanding that Roger has done this with other entities. -
#494 by Bob Woods on 27 Apr, 2021 01:51
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...And NO ONE has replicated the claims.The reason Shawyer won't let Tajmar use his device is because it will be split in "half" in the test room, it would be "half" an EMdrive (as in not present in the "mirrorverse").
Hi Goran,
It is my understanding that Roger offered to loan Tajmar an old Flight Thruster to test.
But Tajmar had to build the Rf system & balance beam test rig that Roger uses.
And had to test it as per Roger's instructions.
As far as I understand the situation, that offer was not taken up.
It is my understanding that Roger has done this with other entities. -
#495 by dustinthewind on 01 May, 2021 21:15
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As a lay person/observer I've always felt there must be a connection between the few observed EM Drive "successes" and either dark matter or dark energy. Is it possible that this recent paper out of the University of Copenhagen might be a clue to such a connection? It describes a model that has dark matter exerting a force that could explain the expansion rate of the universe previously accounted for by models relying on dark energy:
"Specifically, this model has no cosmological constant, instead the dark matter particles have an extra force proportional to velocity squared, somewhat reminiscent of the magnetic force in electrodynamics."
Summary: https://www.science.ku.dk/english/press/news/2021/new-study-sews-doubt-about-the-composition-of-70-percent-of-our-universe/
Paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2102.07792.pdf
I apologize if this has already been discussed, since I'm only a periodic visitor to this topic's forum.
It seems like if this model or its derivatives might provide some clues how to "tune" an EM drive experiment some day.
Just my 2 cents...
You might be more right than you think. I'll get at why. Just reciently there was a paper that predicts why galaxies rotate at their rotation rate with out the need for dark matter using general relativity's frame dragging or gravitomagnetic effect. Basically if the entire universe was rotating and all the matter makes up space time everywhere then that space time would rotate too, and we would never know. It is connected to Mach's_principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach%27s_principle You can think of the gravitomagnetic effect as, the local space time that exists because of the local matter is rotating with the local matter. Problem is the local space time made up of local matter is usually very small (hence the small effect of gravitomagnetism). While the gravitational potential drops off with distance the volume of the universe increases per distance cubed so that the potential locally from all the distant matter is not negligible or actually quite large. When gravitomagnetism rotates the local space time the speed of light one way around is faster than the other which suggests the local space time is the reference frame for the speed of light.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitoelectromagnetism also see frame dragging,Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging, "Under the Lense–Thirring effect, the frame of reference in which a clock ticks the fastest is one which is revolving around the object as viewed by a distant observer. This also means that light traveling in the direction of rotation of the object will move past the massive object faster than light moving against the rotation".
For gallaxies most of the matter is distant and for a massive galaxy rotating it seems too have a non-negligible effect on its local space time. The entire gallaxy has to rotate faster than its local space time to feel force away from the galactic center. The gallaxy appears to rotate faster than it should according to classical gravity but to general relativity it appears this may be predicted. Einstein was excited by the gravitomagnetic effect I read somewhere because he knew what it meant to Mach's principle.
Anyways there is a lot of energy stored up in that rotating space time and here is an important point. There might be a parallel or equivalence principle to the classical gravity, dark matter halo and general relativistic gravitomagnetism because that dark halo appears right where all that stored energy should be according to general relativity but it is a gr magnetic effect not classical. This dark matter/energy is probably energy that has been lost to space time and why would this energy not be conserved? Likewise dark energy may be lost energy to gravity waves. Just reciently in analogue gravity they found a back reaction on black holes when they emmit gravity waves (see my link below about analogue gravity). I was saying this should be before but wasn't taken seriously. It is a parallel to charges experiencing a back reaction when they emit radiation. However if those waves are in a medium of space time, and it has a dielectric property, and the wave is extremely energetic then they can be less dense and actually float away from gravity. A parallel is extremely energetic sound waves in which the air is super heated and hot air is less dense. While the waves might have some regions that are more dense the less dense regions will be a lot less dense so the over all density is less. This would appear as a negative density of space time and a negative density would have negative gravitational properties hence dark energy.
So here is my point. When we discovered the magnetic field we developed compasses to observe it and later other mechanisms. Then we learned later to manipulate it to generate electricity, ect. Now we are learning to observe space time via ligo virgo ect and eventually it is our destiny to learn how to manipulate space time. Here is something key, if you want to understand propellantless propulsion then you have to learn to manipulate space time and Ill say to do that you have to learn to do it efficiently and not waste your energy doing it or you won't go anywhere.
I'll say probably the most likely example I can think of of possible experimental evidence of our first real manipulation of space time is Podkletnov's "gravity impulse generator" in which he claims to have made a wave that seems repulsive and even deflects laser beams and using multiple beams he claims to have clocked it traveing at 64 times the speed of light or 64c. If this is true I would say what he measured was the coordinate speed of light of that wave which is different than a locally measured speed of light if you are located in your local space time. This would be for the inflated space time in which time ticks faster, the coordinate speed of light is faster and is repulsive for the reasons I mentioned above for dark energy. It would also be a mechanism for the back reaction on black holes upon wave emission which was found in analogue gravity I mentioned but those waves quickly disipate in energy density with out being in the form of a soliton wave which Podkletnov has seemed to achieved with his experiment .Quote from: https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.03045Backreaction in an analogue black hole experiment
Black holes can also possibly propell themselves out of their host galaxy if they emit gravity waves in one direction while merging.
Sam Patrick, Harry Goodhew, Cisco Gooding, Silke Weinfurtner
I am not entirely sure the EM drive can do it or is the way to go. I speculated there might be some emission of gravitational radiation via asymmetric emission via asymmetric excitation of electrons in the cavity via the asymmetric shape and asymmetric fields inside. imagine the electrons being more jerked in one direction via frequency mixing but I'm not entirely convinced it would be the way to go. Seems to messy to me. There are also phase matching problems and people find it difficult to match the phase properly (to create the needed asymmetries requires phase locked frequency edit:mixing of harmonics). There are mechanical ways to lock in your phase for the proper asymmetry to be locked in and maybe the emdrive does that but I don't really know for sure.
The mach effect is supposed to work assymetrically too, via asymmetric jerk and acceleration and I have something for mechanically locking in the phase for that, possibly eliminating vibration and center of mass deflection. Problem is proving they work, having the time/resources and if they are both connected means proving both work (em drive, mach effect other methods). I am interested but am wrapped up in my own problems.
p.s. One of the NIAC videos mentioned Podkletnov's gravity impulse generator. I heard some where he is now able to do it with out superconductors so it may be the charge separation, massive charge acceleration asymmetrically, and maybe his magnetic field that is key. Mach effect requires charge separation from what I heard and there is charge separation in the EM drive during capacitive Transverse Magnetic modes, so maybe there is something to that. -
#496 by darkenfast on 02 May, 2021 04:21
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The reason people don't know who Podletnikov is, is because he made claims of anti-gravity effects in 1997, had to withdraw a paper about it and got fired from his research position.
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#497 by dustinthewind on 04 May, 2021 23:18
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The reason people don't know who Podletnikov is, is because he made claims of anti-gravity effects in 1997, had to withdraw a paper about it and got fired from his research position.
Ok my p.s is not NIAC. Sorry it was SSI APW 2020 George Hathaway at about 19 minutes
they mention Podklenov. Physicist do still have an interest regardless of a publisher not believing in new physics but belief isn't what physics is about, it is experimentation, observation, repeatability, and publishing. He claims it is repeatable and others have seen some interesting stuff. Let's remember that this forum is about new physics and in particular this thread is about a form of propellantless propulsion and in my opinion if you want to achieve propellantless propulsion you are going to learn to manipulate space time and it is speculation the EM drive might do that. That was one of the reasons I suggested some time ago to look for redshifting of light in the em drive cavity (they are calling it ring down now -pulsed mode) as there should be blueshifting of space time and redshifting of the light, if there was anything, because of energy conversion and doppler shift as there is with a recycled photon thruster which has better that photon thruster efficiency. Difference it would push against space time asymmetrically some how. I just think its a messy way to do it. Probably by photons interacting with electrons, electrons interact with space time and lose energy, re-emission of photons show energy loss over many cycles. Problem is the cavity wouldn't be able to resonate at just any frequency.
Edit: If there is truth to Podletknovs claims they may have something to say about the mach effect (charge separation and sudden acceleration) or mybe something missing in it like the magnetic field. It has an uncanny resemblance to the negative mass (wormhole term- wave exhibits negative mass effects) and the ftl negative mass wave for the gravity impulse generator. -
#498 by gaballard on 07 May, 2021 19:46
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For someone purportedly sitting on one of the most important inventions in human history, Shawyer sure spends a lot of time swinging wildly at his detractors instead of proving them wrong.
Inventor comes up with a car and wheels. Peer reviewer takes the wheels off and concludes the car can't drive.
Why hasn't Shawyer commercialized his product yet, in some fashion? Where are the CubeSat demonstrations? He could team with a university to help pay for it. And if money is an issue, why hasn't he attracted investors? If he's sitting on the one of the most radical inventions ever, with hard proof, working prototypes, etc., then he just has to show them and he should be drowning in VC money. Why hasn't that happened?
I fully expect a laundry list of excuses and reasons for the above questions, but at the end of the day, there's not a good reason for him not to have done something, anything real with it.
Well... there is. It doesn't work, and he's staked so much of his life on it that he doesn't want to admit he was wrong. Which I feel applies to a lot of the believers in this thread
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#499 by Mezzenile on 12 May, 2021 17:28
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The apparent negative results of the Tajmar Group experiment on the EM-Drive phenomenon associated with an asymmetric cavity were analysed by Mike McCulloch and refuted.
Tajmar put the cavity in a metal enclosure, making it act as a horizon for Unrhu radiation, thus totally disrupting its influence on the inertias expected for the EM-Drive phenomenon to occur.
All this is explained in more detail and rigour on Mike McCulloch's Blog.
Tajmar needs to redo his test by removing the damn metal enclosure that disrupted everything.
The EM-Drive is still alive!
https://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.com/2021/04/response-to-tajmars-new-cavity-results.htmlhttps://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.com/2021/04/response-to-tajmars-new-cavity-results.html
