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#340 by meberbs on 08 Jun, 2020 00:06
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I am not blindly praising him. I am consciously and willingly and enthusiastically praising him! He is a great man. One of my hero's in fact. He is an inventor.
He is not an inventor, he can't even get simple physics straight. There is nothing great abort stubbornness when it is tied to willful ignorance. He is a champion for ignorance, unscientific handwaving, and denial. That is not the description of a hero.Many governments listen to him.
Outright lie. No, convincing some bureaucrat to organize a meeting with him once is not a government listening to him.And I did not say you were quibbling but I said 'and if that's true, you can quibble till your blue in the face' as in you could quibble not you did quibble... There is a premise there and it's a fairly common expression.
So this statement then implies that you admit that I was not quibbling but bringing very valid problems with Shawyer's claims that you have no response to.
Saying that I "could quibble" when I did not, and instead I had brought up significant points is a direct ignoring of what I said. Deliberately changing the subject like that to ignore what I said is possibly even more inappropriate and rude than a deliberate mischaracterization what I said. Now how about instead of your making up strawmen to argue against you try reading my posts and responding to the actual content. -
#341 by Bob012345 on 08 Jun, 2020 15:11
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He is not an inventor, he can't even get simple physics straight. There is nothing great abort stubbornness when it is tied to willful ignorance. He is a champion for ignorance, unscientific handwaving, and denial. That is not the description of a hero.
The United States Patent and Trademark Office disagrees with you. He indeed is an inventor.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/df/5d/cb/132f9ed1da72af/US5543801.pdf -
#342 by Andy USA on 08 Jun, 2020 20:39
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We will not allow uncivil posts on here.
This is mostly aimed at you, meberbs. -
#343 by zubenelgenubi on 09 Jun, 2020 14:44
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The United States Patent and Trademark Office disagrees with you. He indeed is an inventor.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/df/5d/cb/132f9ed1da72af/US5543801.pdf
Member: All a successful patent claim proves is that the applicant successfully applied for a patent through USPO.
Patent investigators are searching for infringement on previous patents--the legality of a patent. They don't screen for merit. They don't investigate whether a claim obeys the laws of physics.
(I have this from a USPO patent investigator.)
The term inventor has the connotation that the inventor's device actually works as claimed.
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Moderator: Which brings us to the purpose of this thread.
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ADD: Chris B deleted the off-topic squabble initiated by Bob.... and responded to by meberbs that immediately followed this post.
Posts about definitions of inventor, etc. are off-topic. Posts about the patent process are off-topic. Off-topic posts risk oblivion. Thus, the off-topic posts are deleted. -
#344 by kenny008 on 09 Jun, 2020 20:58
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Actually, I found the discussions of the experiments and setups to be extremely interesting. Once Shells, Dr. Rodal, and others left, we kind of devolved into discussions of theories that have not been as interesting. Maybe we could concentrate only on actual experimental set-ups and results, and give some considered thought and critiques of these experiments.
These debates are like religion and politics. You aren't going to change peoples' minds, no matter how the math proves it one way or another. Just "show me the money!" -
#345 by D_Dom on 10 Jun, 2020 00:08
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Off topic posts, once deleted, should not be re-appearing here. This topic is not about inventions or patents. This topic is about EM drive developments related to spaceflight applications.
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#346 by Asteroza on 11 Jun, 2020 00:12
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So, um , at the risk of getting nuked here...
for a propellantless drive that has low thrust, what kind of physical installation would be used on a spacecraft? There's no nozzle, so potentially could be internal. There's probably a cooling requirement. There may be an (external to the drive itself) RF source, so you need waveguides. Depending on installation style, there may be a gimbaling requirement.
So, something like a canfield joint, where cooling and waveguides could be fitted to the points of rotation?
Considering the "caterpillar" aspect, is there merit in distributing the propulsion to multiple drives along a spine/strongback, versus one or two big drives? If going with big drive(s), use a center of mass installation, a tractor setup, or pusher setup? -
#347 by Mark7777777 on 11 Jun, 2020 02:11
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So, um , at the risk of getting nuked here...
for a propellantless drive that has low thrust, what kind of physical installation would be used on a spacecraft? There's no nozzle, so potentially could be internal. There's probably a cooling requirement. There may be an (external to the drive itself) RF source, so you need waveguides. Depending on installation style, there may be a gimbaling requirement.
So, something like a canfield joint, where cooling and waveguides could be fitted to the points of rotation?
Considering the "caterpillar" aspect, is there merit in distributing the propulsion to multiple drives along a spine/strongback, versus one or two big drives? If going with big drive(s), use a center of mass installation, a tractor setup, or pusher setup?
This was put on their website a few years ago now I think:
http://cannae.com/space-freighter/
I don’t know what the status is. -
#348 by Bob Woods on 12 Jun, 2020 07:29
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So, um , at the risk of getting nuked here...
In the experiments that were done and discussed here by Shawyer, RFMWGuy and Monomorphic the frustums were designed for a specific microwave frequency in order to generate resonance. That frequency defined the physical size of the frustums. which was not that big. Rough guess is small end diameter of 3 or 4 inches and a large end diameter of 14 inches or so. You can find the exact dimensions in old threads.
for a propellantless drive that has low thrust, what kind of physical installation would be used on a spacecraft? There's no nozzle, so potentially could be internal. There's probably a cooling requirement. There may be an (external to the drive itself) RF source, so you need waveguides. Depending on installation style, there may be a gimbaling requirement.
So, something like a canfield joint, where cooling and waveguides could be fitted to the points of rotation?
Considering the "caterpillar" aspect, is there merit in distributing the propulsion to multiple drives along a spine/strongback, versus one or two big drives? If going with big drive(s), use a center of mass installation, a tractor setup, or pusher setup?
If they had proved out, which they did not, there then was a simple choice: An array of thrusters with the additive thrust of each individual unit, or finding if there was increased thrust at different frequencies, larger or smaller. for a different sized frustum/frequency.
In the end it was moot. -
#349 by VAXHeadroom on 15 Jun, 2020 15:49
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On The Space Show this week:
2. SPECIAL TIME: Tuesday, May June 16, 2020, 5 PM PDT (7 PM CDT; 8 PM EDT) We welcome back for the first segment, Dr. Harold "Sonny" White regarding advanced propulsion and physics. The balance of this program will fold over to Open Lines on any topic. Dr. white is with us for a limited amount of time so if you have a question or want to talk to him, be prompt in calling.
More information can be found at: www.thespaceshow.com -
#350 by Alex_O on 16 Jun, 2020 19:53
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On The Space Show this week:
2. SPECIAL TIME: Tuesday, May June 16, 2020, 5 PM PDT (7 PM CDT; 8 PM EDT) We welcome back for the first segment, Dr. Harold "Sonny" White regarding advanced propulsion and physics. The balance of this program will fold over to Open Lines on any topic. Dr. white is with us for a limited amount of time so if you have a question or want to talk to him, be prompt in calling.
More information can be found at: www.thespaceshow.com
Question to Dr. Harold "Sonny" White (trial, please evaluate, can this be a good question?)
Vacuum. There are virtual particles in a vacuum. A high-energy photon can create (from vacuum?) a pair of electron-positron particles, (for example). But you need a photon with a lot of energy, and this is somehow bad.
What if you try to use low-energy photons (as in Emdrive) to create (I use my own, special term) certain pseudoparticles, quasiparticles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasiparticle). These are (figuratively) not electrons and not positrons. This is something else. This is something that can be completely virtual, with a short life span. Perhaps the term phonon, soliton - is somehow suitable for describing this idea.
In short, here is a vacuum, and we in his virtual world want to create something like that, a little bit less virtual. I will call it a vacuum chip. This chip is something that should be useful for space flights - since this chip will have useful physical properties.
For example, this chip may have electrical, magnetic properties. And this chip can somehow be pushed. Using, for example, electromagnetic forces.
Or there is no pushing, maybe this vacuum chip will be able to push (push, push) a special antenna, an adapter (which must first be built in a stellar engine) - and it will be like flying a cork from a bottle of champagne. The clap, bang, and rocket made a non-reactive flight in outer space ..
It is possible that this antenna (adapter) should be pre-prepared (using special technology, physics) to interact with this vacuum chip. Maybe this antenna-adapter should be somehow “charged, magnetized, polarized” .. Maybe this antenna (adapter) should have its own energy source, a generator of some RF frequency.
Here is another example of a description of the question in other words. If vacuum is a useful resource and a star ship can use this resource for space flights, then it is possible that this vacuum must first be processed a little. Prepare a serving of vacuum using some technology. Activate a portion of vacuum in a special zone, the space engine chamber. Something like this.
This is a good question for Dr. Harold "Sonny" White?
Just the thought that to synthesize an electron-positron pair on board a rocket to use this pair as a propellant, you need to spend a portion of energy, equivalent to the mass of this pair of particles, and it will be a bad rocket.
But how much energy (what work needs to be done) may be required for "synthesis" in a “vacuum” of a certain “electrically charged region”, where there is no mass, but there is a certain “electric field”? What would the pressure force begin to act on the electric charges on the surface of the antenna adapter from this field? What will create the source (cause) of motion for the spacecraft without ejecting the propellant. If it possible, it was extremely useful for space flights?.
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#351 by MrFrankenverse on 17 Jun, 2020 02:41
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Some experimental proof of radiation pressure recoil has recently been accepted at APS:
https://phys.org/news/2020-06-pressure-recoil-experimental-proof-year-old.html
The paper is member/pay walled at:
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.124.233201 -
#352 by Redclaws on 17 Jun, 2020 03:14
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Radiation pressure has no connection to EM Drive, does it...? For one thing, it’s a normal part of accepted physics, with no significant unexplained aspects.
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#353 by Unentitled on 17 Jun, 2020 05:15
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On The Space Show this week:
2. SPECIAL TIME: Tuesday, May June 16, 2020, 5 PM PDT (7 PM CDT; 8 PM EDT) We welcome back for the first segment, Dr. Harold "Sonny" White regarding advanced propulsion and physics. The balance of this program will fold over to Open Lines on any topic. Dr. white is with us for a limited amount of time so if you have a question or want to talk to him, be prompt in calling.
More information can be found at: www.thespaceshow.com
Thanks for sharing this! I was recently wondering about updates from Sonny's endeavors.
It isn't archived on their website to listen yet, but did anyone happen to hear it live and can share their thoughts? -
#354 by Bob Woods on 17 Jun, 2020 14:45
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Heard the first 30 minutes or so before I had to do something else. White talked about his new non-profit operation that is funding some research on projects towards breakthrough propulsion, on a 2 year cycle, but has been slowed by coronavirus like everything else. There was some discussion on various modalities: solar electric, nuclear electric, potential fusion generators, direct nuclear reaction drives, etc. including Mach Effect and EM drives, but is seemed mostly a recap of things that most have heard about.On The Space Show this week:
2. SPECIAL TIME: Tuesday, May June 16, 2020, 5 PM PDT (7 PM CDT; 8 PM EDT) We welcome back for the first segment, Dr. Harold "Sonny" White regarding advanced propulsion and physics. The balance of this program will fold over to Open Lines on any topic. Dr. white is with us for a limited amount of time so if you have a question or want to talk to him, be prompt in calling.
More information can be found at: www.thespaceshow.com
Thanks for sharing this! I was recently wondering about updates from Sonny's endeavors.
It isn't archived on their website to listen yet, but did anyone happen to hear it live and can share their thoughts? -
#355 by Mark7777777 on 17 Jun, 2020 23:06
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On The Space Show this week:
2. SPECIAL TIME: Tuesday, May June 16, 2020, 5 PM PDT (7 PM CDT; 8 PM EDT) We welcome back for the first segment, Dr. Harold "Sonny" White regarding advanced propulsion and physics. The balance of this program will fold over to Open Lines on any topic. Dr. white is with us for a limited amount of time so if you have a question or want to talk to him, be prompt in calling.
More information can be found at: www.thespaceshow.com
Thanks for sharing this! I was recently wondering about updates from Sonny's endeavors.
It isn't archived on their website to listen yet, but did anyone happen to hear it live and can share their thoughts?
Available:
https://www.thespaceshow.com/show/16-jun-2020/broadcast-3528-dr.-harold-sonny-white-open-lines
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#356 by Unentitled on 20 Jun, 2020 05:03
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Overview from a wired article of the non profit for reference: https://www.wired.com/story/nasas-emdrive-leader-has-a-new-interstellar-project/
Around 35min in goes into an overview/mentioning of EMDrive, Mach Effect Drive, covering false positives (unable to eliminate some false positives), current focus of physics & science implentation (some paper(s)) and dynamic vacuum model, pursuits during a DARPA contract(?). This is during a broad Q&A portion.
Mention of some unexpected yet smart considerations and diverting of funds (small for internship) due to COVID precautions.
Overall it seems a pretty high level discussion and mostly off topic to this topic, but considering the source it's nice to hear the discussion. And trying to support/promote student projects and maintain inspiration through the non profit objectives. Sonny sounds engaged and grounded throughout - and open to new physics without blowing yourselves up.
Just my takeaways.
Hope developments in regards to grants and student or other work remains public to some extent. The forum collaboration here was incredible during member experimentation & development of said experiments, so I hope this project with Sonny fosters something similar. -
#357 by TheTraveller on 26 Aug, 2020 12:36
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Roger Shawyer is presenting a new CubeSat EmDrive paper at IAC 2020.
0.5N/kW specific thrust.
Have been told it includes details of the spreadsheet used to calc the various physical dimensions plus other new data & insights.
Here is the abstract
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#358 by Bob Woods on 27 Aug, 2020 04:46
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Roger Shawyer is presenting a new CubeSat EmDrive paper at IAC 2020.
Phil, you've been posting this stuff for what, 6 years now? Nothing proved. No replication. Always promises of "more details" AND NOTHING USEFUL COMES.
0.5N/kW specific thrust.
Have been told it includes details of the spreadsheet used to calc the various physical dimensions plus other new data & insights.
Here is the abstract
Past time to give it up. -
#359 by TheTraveller on 27 Aug, 2020 13:01
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Checkout the Clyde Space Epic 12U Plus CubeSat offering.
https://www.aac-clyde.space/epic-spacecraft/epic-12
Then install a 140mm long, 20mN, EmDrive thruster, 40W RF amp & control electronics.
Full DIY details in the paper.
