Author Topic: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3  (Read 345257 times)

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #380 on: 06/13/2020 08:48 pm »
Getting out of bed isn't "safe". Staying in bed isn't "safe". Citing a failure to "prove something safe" is meaningless because there is no such thing. There are only odds and standards. If you have a system with a 1 in 90 chance of failure, and an escape scheme that works 80% of the time, you've met your 1 in 270 odds.
 
 If there are 100,000 people living in space or on other planets in 40 years, any actions you take safety wise will save lives that would have been lost, and will likely cost lives that wouldn't have been lost. If you can't find it within yourself to accept the responsibility, you shouldn't be in the game. That's why we use data and not cliches to make the decisions.
Certainly. I was just suggesting that just because you have a system that technically can eject during all phases of flight does not make that escape system survivable in all stages of flight, and does not on its own make a launch system “safe”.

But better than nothing? Almost certainly. (Unless compromises made for the escape system reduces safety in other ways)

Agreed that there is always risk. Walking across the road is a risk. Even staying in bed is a risk.

Offline mgeagon

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #381 on: 06/17/2020 04:58 am »
This is a great discussion. Really. It probably needs its own thread.

With the ISS preparing for commercial visitors, what is the maximum capacity? From the present docking nodes, there are two IDAs and two Soyuz ports, correct? So, can 8 + 6 comfortably exist on board? Could 14 + 6 in a strict private effort? Can the Dragon 2 and/or Starliner be used as dwellings while docked or does hibernation somehow proclude extensive use? I do not presume anyone would squeeze into Soyuz just to chill out.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #382 on: 06/17/2020 10:00 am »
With the ISS preparing for commercial visitors, what is the maximum capacity?

I don't know, but I would imagine a limiting factor would be CO2 scrubbing capability.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #383 on: 06/17/2020 06:47 pm »
With the ISS preparing for commercial visitors, what is the maximum capacity?

I don't know, but I would imagine a limiting factor would be CO2 scrubbing capability.

Yes. And the visiting vehicles do not help out with that, they are hibernation mode when docked. (Shuttle did, but the current vehicles do not have the capability)
« Last Edit: 06/17/2020 06:48 pm by Lars-J »

Offline octavo

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #384 on: 06/18/2020 07:10 am »
With the ISS preparing for commercial visitors, what is the maximum capacity?

I don't know, but I would imagine a limiting factor would be CO2 scrubbing capability.

Reading Endurance, I was a bit shocked at how bad the CO2 situation can get sometimes.

Offline ChrML

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #385 on: 07/08/2020 11:40 pm »
If you have a system with a 1 in 90 chance of failure, and an escape scheme that works 80% of the time, you've met your 1 in 270 odds.
Actually at some occasion, can't remember where, Elon Musk mentioned that the requirement is 1/270 without the launch escape system, so the real safety should be somewhere around 1/900 or so.

Also the crew certification document from NASA specifies that a launch escape system is last resort (it's unsafe by itself). So you need full safety as if you didn't have it.

Offline kdhilliard

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #386 on: 07/09/2020 01:46 am »
Actually at some occasion, can't remember where, Elon Musk mentioned that the requirement is 1/270 without the launch escape system, so the real safety should be somewhere around 1/900 or so.
Perhaps you are thinking of Hans Königsmann's 2 June 2020 interview (in German) by Der Speigel, discussed here.  Silmfeanor translated one excerpt as:
Quote
SpaceX has a 1 in 276 chance of loss of crew by NASA's calculations. This is without taking into account the LAS system. Therefore the real number is way lower. SpaceX has never calculated that real number precisely; Hans estimates the number to be certainly at least 1:several thousand.
Our subsequent discussion pointed out that the math didn't make much sense, as the LAS only helps during ascent anomalies, and that a lot of the risk comes from on-orbit MMD impacts and from reentry and landing concerns.

Offline ChrML

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #387 on: 07/13/2020 05:29 pm »
Actually at some occasion, can't remember where, Elon Musk mentioned that the requirement is 1/270 without the launch escape system, so the real safety should be somewhere around 1/900 or so.
Perhaps you are thinking of Hans Königsmann's 2 June 2020 interview (in German) by Der Speigel, discussed here.  Silmfeanor translated one excerpt as:
Quote
SpaceX has a 1 in 276 chance of loss of crew by NASA's calculations. This is without taking into account the LAS system. Therefore the real number is way lower. SpaceX has never calculated that real number precisely; Hans estimates the number to be certainly at least 1:several thousand.
Our subsequent discussion pointed out that the math didn't make much sense, as the LAS only helps during ascent anomalies, and that a lot of the risk comes from on-orbit MMD impacts and from reentry and landing concerns.
Yes, that's the one! Good find.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #388 on: 07/29/2020 06:29 pm »
https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1288516823244320769

Quote
How @SpaceX & @elonmusk beat Boeing in the race to launch NASA astronauts:

A short CNBC history on the Commercial Crew program, featuring NASA administrator @JimBridenstine and former NASA deputy administrator @Lori_Garver:


Offline Proponent

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #389 on: 10/05/2020 05:12 pm »
Jeff Foust at SpaceNews: NASA safety panel raises doubts about Starliner test flight schedule.

Recall that some months ago, Boeing killed DARPA's XS-1 by dropping out after having become the program's sole prime contractor.  Could Boeing give up on Starliner too?

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #390 on: 10/06/2020 07:34 am »
Boeing killed DARPA's XS-1[/url] by dropping out after having become the program's sole prime contractor.  Could Boeing give up on Starliner too?

Yes it could. If the bean counters say that Boeing is going to lose money by continuing the program, that may very well happen. However, this could have severe consequences for Boeing in trying to get future contracts from NASA since the category for "past performance" would get a low value.
« Last Edit: 10/06/2020 07:38 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #391 on: 10/06/2020 09:09 am »
Boeing killed DARPA's XS-1[/url] by dropping out after having become the program's sole prime contractor.  Could Boeing give up on Starliner too?

Yes it could. If the bean counters say that Boeing is going to lose money by continuing the program, that may very well happen. However, this could have severe consequences for Boeing in trying to get future contracts from NASA since the category for "past performance" would get a low value.

This scenario has also been discussed in the Boeing Starliner thread:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=51346.msg2129411#msg2129411

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=51346.msg2129490#msg2129490

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #392 on: 11/13/2020 05:41 pm »
It flew under the radar a little with all the media attention surrounding the impending Crew 1 launch.

But during the Flight Readiness Review on November 10th, 2020, a major milestone was reached in the Commercial Crew Program: the first provider received full Human Rating Certification when Kathy Lueders signed the Human Rating Certification Plan (with a rather ordinary pen).

See attached image.
« Last Edit: 11/14/2020 07:39 am by woods170 »

Offline snotis

Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #393 on: 11/13/2020 05:53 pm »
It flew under the radar a little with all the media attention surrounding the impending Crew 1 launch.

But during the Flight Readiness Review on October 10th, 2020, a major milestone was reached in the Commercial Crew Program: the first provider received full Human Rating Certification when Kathy Lueders signed the Human Rating Certification Plan (with a rather ordinary pen).

See attached image.

Typo: FRR was on November 10th, 2020.  :)

Offline MarkW

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #394 on: 11/13/2020 06:46 pm »
But during the Flight Readiness Review on October 10th, 2020, a major milestone was reached in the Commercial Crew Program: the first provider received full Human Rating Certification when Kathy Lueders signed the Human Rating Certification Plan (with a rather ordinary pen).

It’s probably a really stupid/pointless question, but who is the final signatory on that page, the one listed under certification? All the others can be read but I couldn’t make that one out?

It’s hardly important, but I often find the boring stuff interesting  ;D
« Last Edit: 11/13/2020 06:47 pm by MarkW »

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #395 on: 11/13/2020 06:51 pm »
But during the Flight Readiness Review on October 10th, 2020, a major milestone was reached in the Commercial Crew Program: the first provider received full Human Rating Certification when Kathy Lueders signed the Human Rating Certification Plan (with a rather ordinary pen).

It’s probably a really stupid/pointless question, but who is the final signatory on that page, the one listed under certification? All the others can be read but I couldn’t make that one out?

It’s hardly important, but I often find the boring stuff interesting  ;D

It is blurred but I think  it is Steve Jurczyk.

Offline MarkW

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #396 on: 11/13/2020 06:55 pm »
It is blurred but I think  it is Steve Jurczyk.

Yep that looks about right (and explains why it looked like random letters though the blur), he’d also probably be the right person to be signing off on something that big, thanks!

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #397 on: 11/14/2020 07:40 am »
It flew under the radar a little with all the media attention surrounding the impending Crew 1 launch.

But during the Flight Readiness Review on October 10th, 2020, a major milestone was reached in the Commercial Crew Program: the first provider received full Human Rating Certification when Kathy Lueders signed the Human Rating Certification Plan (with a rather ordinary pen).

See attached image.

Typo: FRR was on November 10th, 2020.  :)

Yes, thank you for noticing. Fixed!

Offline su27k

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #398 on: 11/24/2020 04:11 am »
NASA officials hope to fly Russian cosmonaut on Crew Dragon next year

Quote
NASA has submitted a draft agreement for government approval that would allow Russian cosmonauts to begin flying to the International Space Station on U.S. crew capsules next year in a no-funds exchanged arrangement with Russia’s space agency.

In return, Russia will continue launching U.S. and international astronauts on Soyuz missions.

Offline John_Marshall

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #399 on: 11/24/2020 03:43 pm »
Does anyone who follows these things more than I do know how this would work out with the Russian movie in space and MS-19? The article specifically mentions putting an astronaut on that flight if the deal goes through.

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