Author Topic: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3  (Read 345269 times)

Offline gongora

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #20 on: 10/03/2019 02:15 pm »
What has not yet been publicly confirmed:
- What component was the source of the NTO leakthrough

I thought that was confirmed to be the check valve

Offline edzieba

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #21 on: 10/03/2019 02:44 pm »
No. The press release was very carefully worded to separate the component that leaked (unnamed) and the component that fractured and ignited (the check valve).

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #22 on: 10/03/2019 03:29 pm »
No. The press release was very carefully worded to separate the component that leaked (unnamed) and the component that fractured and ignited (the check valve).

I agree, it is carefully worded.  However I think the idea was planted by Hans Koenigsmann in a follow up question during the July 15th press briefing:
Quote
“If you have a propellant tank, and you fill that tank, and you do have a check valve, it’s conceivable that the check valve leaks backwards … and you push propellant into the pressurization system,” Koenigsmann said. “The amount might be a cup or something like that, or more than a cup, it depends on how the system is being built up. And then it’s there for a while after loading, and when you pressurize you basically open the valves really, really fast.”
.
https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/07/15/spacex-points-to-leaky-valve-as-culprit-in-crew-dragon-test-accident/

Since he is speaking hypothetically it isn't conclusively the check valve.  Perhaps this points to them never really being certain which component leaked.

Offline ajmarco

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #23 on: 10/03/2019 04:26 pm »
If you listen to the NASA Podcast with Benji Reed, he gives an explanation of what happened during the test and what they are doing to fix it.

Basically if I remember correctly it was that certain conditions occurred they allowed a small amount of liquid behind the valve where is shouldn't be. That liquid turned into a slug, that when the system was being pressurized prior to ignition that caused the slug to break through the valve and then rupture another component causing the explosion.

Offline gongora

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #24 on: 10/04/2019 07:06 pm »
In response to a question during a press conference for upcoming EVA series, Kirk Shireman mentioned that one reason the Boeing CFT mission had its duration extended but the SpaceX DM-2 mission didn't is that the vehicle SpaceX was going to fly for DM-2 had technical limitations.  He didn't go into detail but the DM-1 vehicle had limitations relating to thermal conditions, maybe the original DM-2 capsule did too.  Now that the capsule originally planned to fly DM-2 is going to be used for IFA instead, with a different capsule (originally planned for the first post certification mission) flying on DM-2, it could be possible to extend the duration of DM-2 if needed, but they don't currently have an agreement with SpaceX to do so.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2019 07:07 pm by gongora »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #25 on: 10/08/2019 02:37 pm »
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1181572161917607948

Quote
Source says "full panic has ensued" as NASA realizes commercial crew may not be ready in first half of 2020; and Gerstenmeier is no longer around to help the companies along, or negotiate with Russians for more Soyuz seats. Focus on Artemis may put ISS program in real danger.

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #26 on: 10/08/2019 02:53 pm »
Musk's reply to Mr Berger:


https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1181579173388673025


Quote
For what it’s worth, the SpaceX schedule, which I’ve just reviewed in depth, shows Falcon & Dragon at the Cape & all testing done in ~10 weeks Elon Musk (@elonmusk)

Offline jadebenn

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #27 on: 10/08/2019 04:54 pm »
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1181572161917607948

Quote
Source says "full panic has ensued" as NASA realizes commercial crew may not be ready in first half of 2020; and Gerstenmeier is no longer around to help the companies along, or negotiate with Russians for more Soyuz seats. Focus on Artemis may put ISS program in real danger.
I like how he implies Artemis is somehow related to SpaceX's CCrew delays. That seems like blatant scapegoating to me.
« Last Edit: 10/08/2019 04:54 pm by jadebenn »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #28 on: 10/08/2019 05:01 pm »
I think the point Eric is trying to make is that Gerstenmeier‘s departure was related to wanting to hasten progress on Artemis, but that it may be having a negative impact on getting CC over the line. Especially as at this stage of the CC program NASA has a lot of work on analysis, reviews, making judgements about acceptable risk etc.

Offline jadebenn

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #29 on: 10/08/2019 05:06 pm »
I think the point Eric is trying to make is that Gerstenmeier‘s departure was related to wanting to hasten progress on Artemis, but that it may be having a negative impact on getting CC over the line. Especially as at this stage of the CC program NASA has a lot of work on analysis, reviews, making judgements about acceptable risk etc.
That's a more reasonable interpretation than what I thought he was saying.

Still, is there actually any evidence that Gerst's unfilled position is actually the problem here? Especially since Bridenstine claims the issues holding SpaceX up are the abort and parachute systems.

Offline envy887

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #30 on: 10/08/2019 07:17 pm »
I think the point Eric is trying to make is that Gerstenmeier‘s departure was related to wanting to hasten progress on Artemis, but that it may be having a negative impact on getting CC over the line. Especially as at this stage of the CC program NASA has a lot of work on analysis, reviews, making judgements about acceptable risk etc.
That's a more reasonable interpretation than what I thought he was saying.

Still, is there actually any evidence that Gerst's unfilled position is actually the problem here? Especially since Bridenstine claims the issues holding SpaceX up are the abort and parachute systems.

Gerst would have had to sign off on those issues, no?

Offline harrystranger

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #31 on: 10/12/2019 01:01 am »
I haven't seen this posted anywhere yet, so I hope this is the right place  :D


Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #32 on: 10/24/2019 03:55 pm »
twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/1187389343138226176

Quote
In an interview a few minutes ago, NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine says they are “definitely” buying more Soyuz seats from Russia as a hedge against more commercial crew delays. Negotiations underway.

https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/1187395277902303234

Quote
In a press conference at IAC, Bridenstine now says it’s “highly likely” NASA will need to buy more Soyuz seats from Roscosmos.

I’ve previously seen it claimed that the lead time on building additional Soyuz is too great, but maybe there are spare seats available?

Offline GWR64

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #33 on: 10/31/2019 09:01 am »
https://ria.ru/20191031/1560432296.html

Google translate:
Quote
NASA requested Roscosmos space on Soyuz spacecraft in 2020 and 2021
12:41 10.31.2019 (updated: 12:50 10/31/2019)

MOSCOW, October 31 - RIA News. The US National Aeronautics and Space Administration requested Roscosmos extra seats on Russian Soyuz spaceships for American astronauts, state corporation CEO Dmitry Rogozin told reporters.

"I received a warm-looking and informative letter from Brydenstein (NASA head. - Ed.), In which he refers to a certain situation related to the delay of the spacecraft for the delivery of American crews to the ISS. The American side may require additional places in 2020-2021. We proceed from the principles of partnership and will decide how to satisfy these requests, "Rogozin said.
Following NASA’s request, Roscosmos decided to allocate money for the construction of two additional Soyuz spacecraft, the department head added.

The last place acquired by the Americans is on the Soyuz MS-16 ship, which will start in the spring of 2020. It will ensure that at least one astronaut stays at the station until next fall.
In the future, the United States planned to deliver the ISS crew on new Dragon and Starliner ships, the launches of which were repeatedly postponed.

Offline cebri

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #34 on: 10/31/2019 04:23 pm »
After watching the CEO of Boeing testifying in front of both houses. I kind of feel glad NASA has such tight control over both Dragon and Starliner, even tho I've criticized it in the past. I'm sure Boeing engineers are great, but the company's internal culture seems to be totally broken. A lot of what I'm hearing and reading, IMO resembles a lot to the problems NASA had during the Challenger days.
"It's kind of amazing that a window of opportunity is open for life to beyond Earth, and we don't know how long this window is gonna be open" Elon Musk
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Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #35 on: 11/01/2019 03:39 pm »
After watching the CEO of Boeing testifying in front of both houses. I kind of feel glad NASA has such tight control over both Dragon and Starliner, even tho I've criticized it in the past. I'm sure Boeing engineers are great, but the company's internal culture seems to be totally broken. A lot of what I'm hearing and reading, IMO resembles a lot to the problems NASA had during the Challenger days.

There's a pretty big wall in many ways between commercial airplanes and defense/space.  It would be a mistake to assume the culture is uniform across a 180,000 person company.

Offline cebri

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #36 on: 11/01/2019 08:06 pm »
After watching the CEO of Boeing testifying in front of both houses. I kind of feel glad NASA has such tight control over both Dragon and Starliner, even tho I've criticized it in the past. I'm sure Boeing engineers are great, but the company's internal culture seems to be totally broken. A lot of what I'm hearing and reading, IMO resembles a lot to the problems NASA had during the Challenger days.

There's a pretty big wall in many ways between commercial airplanes and defense/space.  It would be a mistake to assume the culture is uniform across a 180,000 person company.

But the CEO and upper management are the same for both divisions. If they decided it was OK to make a plane full of compromises just to start producing maxs as soon as possible to compete with Airbus, one can only wonder if they made similar decisions in other programs.
"It's kind of amazing that a window of opportunity is open for life to beyond Earth, and we don't know how long this window is gonna be open" Elon Musk
"If you want to see an endangered species, get up and look in the mirror." John Young

Offline thirtyone

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #37 on: 11/03/2019 11:00 am »
After watching the CEO of Boeing testifying in front of both houses. I kind of feel glad NASA has such tight control over both Dragon and Starliner, even tho I've criticized it in the past. I'm sure Boeing engineers are great, but the company's internal culture seems to be totally broken. A lot of what I'm hearing and reading, IMO resembles a lot to the problems NASA had during the Challenger days.

There's a pretty big wall in many ways between commercial airplanes and defense/space.  It would be a mistake to assume the culture is uniform across a 180,000 person company.

Not always true. In many companies culture across divisions often reflects top management. I've heard quite a few things across several defense/space projects which I probably can't say, but just looking at a few recent public examples outside of commercial aircraft - like FOD on new military tanker aircraft, I personally really feel there are some company-wide cultural problems.

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #38 on: 11/04/2019 09:48 am »
MCAS, outsourcing to India and 737 MAX are all very much OFF TOPIC for this thread.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #39 on: 11/14/2019 06:21 pm »
From OIG CC report:

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1195056537280143360

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Whoah. Boeing got paid an additional $287.2 million above its fixed price contract to address its schedule slippage.

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1195057843533205506

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Damn. "Given that NASA’s objective was to address a potential crew transportation gap, we found that SpaceX was not provided an opportunity to propose a solution even though the company previously offered shorter production lead times than Boeing."

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