Author Topic: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2  (Read 1046343 times)

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1820 on: 09/02/2020 01:14 am »
Rural Digital Opportunity Fund Phase I Auction
Auction ID: 904
Incomplete Applications

0017434911 Hughes Network Systems, LLC [@OneWeb?]
0026043968 Space Exploration Technologies Corp [@SpaceX]
source: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-20-960A3.pdf
No application from @amazon Kuiper or @Telesat.

https://twitter.com/Megaconstellati/status/1300875705933324289

FCC page for these notices: https://www.fcc.gov/document/auction-904-application-status
explanatory document found therein: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-20-960A1.pdf
About 3/4 of the ~500 applications are still in the "incomplete" list.  They could be missing information on the application, missing supporting documentation, need to request a waiver for various reasons, etc.  Resubmissions are due September 23.

FCC main page for the auction: https://www.fcc.gov/auction/904
the "Application Search" tab provides some public information on the submissions (not much)

Online TheRadicalModerate

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1821 on: 09/03/2020 05:37 am »
If I remember correctly the requirement from the FCC license is 1/2 by March 2024. 6 years from date of license. Then 100% 9 years from date of license.
https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-authorizes-spacex-provide-broadband-satellite-services

I do not think there will be a problem in meeting the requirement. The number of sats (2200) is "operational on orbit sats on the date" not launched sats by the date. They should be able to reach the 2200 milestone in 2022.

I'm not that concerned about filling up the first license, but the license for the next 8000ish is only about 9 months behind the first license, isn't it?  I think they're fine if they have Starship in service and at decent cadence by early 2023, but a big hiccup there could make things interesting.

There's a third license out there as well, isn't there?  Has that been approved by the FCC yet?
« Last Edit: 09/03/2020 05:38 am by TheRadicalModerate »

Offline ClayJar

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1822 on: 09/03/2020 12:43 pm »
They just said in the Starlink 12 launch webcast that they have been testing two Starlink satellites with the space lasers.

Offline envy887

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1823 on: 09/03/2020 12:43 pm »
Kate Tice noted on the L11 webcast that SpaceX has successfully completed an in-space test of intersatellite laser links, transferring "hundreds of gigabytes" of data between two satellites.

At T-4:45 in

« Last Edit: 09/03/2020 12:45 pm by envy887 »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1824 on: 09/03/2020 12:44 pm »
Kate Tice noted on the L11 webcast that SpaceX has successfully completed an in-space test of intersatellite laser links, transferring "hundreds of gigabytes" of data between two satellites.

twitter.com/spacex/status/1301500710656159745

Quote
In initial tests of Starlink, the team has been collecting latency data and performing standard speed tests of the system

https://twitter.com/spacex/status/1301500711633444865

Quote
Results from these tests have shown super low latency and download speeds greater than 100 megabytes per second – fast enough to stream multiple HD movies at once and still have bandwidth to spare

Edit to add: SpaceX have deleted the previous tweet and posted a corrected version

https://twitter.com/spacex/status/1301512142055600128

Quote
Results from these tests have shown super low latency and download speeds greater than 100 mbps – fast enough to stream multiple HD movies at once and still have bandwidth to spare
« Last Edit: 09/03/2020 01:40 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Online wannamoonbase

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1825 on: 09/03/2020 12:45 pm »
They just said in the Starlink 12 launch webcast that they have been testing two Starlink satellites with the space lasers.

Excellent news, exciting to see this development.  Deployment can’t be too far away.

My gosh Starlink is going to make SpaceX worth hundreds of billions. 
Starship 2022, can't wait!!

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1826 on: 09/03/2020 02:11 pm »
Man, SpaceX sure gives Starlink concern-trolls a workout having to constantly move the goalposts...

1) Starlink is vaporware.
2) Starlink I sn’t vaporware, but OneWeb will beat them to deployment. SpaceX won’t be able to ramp up production fast enough because they have no satellite experience.
3) OneWeb won’t beat them to deployment and SpaceX can ramp production, but the user terminals don’t exist.
4) The user terminals exist, but SpaceX won’t ever be able to do laser satellite links.

5) Sure the laser links have been tested on-orbit, but...

We’re right here.

And probably should add:
1) Starlink will pose too much of a risk due to falling debris.
2) Sure, SpaceX made starlink fully demisable, but Starlink’s high altitude LEO shell will cause an unacceptable risk to future generations due to LEO debris.
3) Sure, Starlink’s altitude is now lowered to a largely self-cleaning low LEO altitude, but the numerous satellites will ruin the sky for starwatchers for all time.

4) Sure, Starlink now has visors that make them invisible to the naked eye once reaching operational attitude/altitude, but...
« Last Edit: 09/03/2020 02:12 pm by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline envy887

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1827 on: 09/03/2020 02:38 pm »
Man, SpaceX sure gives Starlink concern-trolls a workout having to constantly move the goalposts...

1) Starlink is vaporware.
2) Starlink I sn’t vaporware, but OneWeb will beat them to deployment. SpaceX won’t be able to ramp up production fast enough because they have no satellite experience.
3) OneWeb won’t beat them to deployment and SpaceX can ramp production, but the user terminals don’t exist.
4) The user terminals exist, but SpaceX won’t ever be able to do laser satellite links.

5) Sure the laser links have been tested on-orbit, but...

We’re right here.

And probably should add:
1) Starlink will pose too much of a risk due to falling debris.
2) Sure, SpaceX made starlink fully demisable, but Starlink’s high altitude LEO shell will cause an unacceptable risk to future generations due to LEO debris.
3) Sure, Starlink’s altitude is now lowered to a largely self-cleaning low LEO altitude, but the numerous satellites will ruin the sky for starwatchers for all time.

4) Sure, Starlink now has visors that make them invisible to the naked eye once reaching operational attitude/altitude, but...

The satellite and telecom people obviously were't paying attention when SpaceX played the same trick on the launch vehicle industry experts about 5 years ago.

Offline capoman

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1828 on: 09/03/2020 02:39 pm »
Man, SpaceX sure gives Starlink concern-trolls a workout having to constantly move the goalposts...

1) Starlink is vaporware.
2) Starlink I sn’t vaporware, but OneWeb will beat them to deployment. SpaceX won’t be able to ramp up production fast enough because they have no satellite experience.
3) OneWeb won’t beat them to deployment and SpaceX can ramp production, but the user terminals don’t exist.
4) The user terminals exist, but SpaceX won’t ever be able to do laser satellite links.

5) Sure the laser links have been tested on-orbit, but...

We’re right here.

And probably should add:
1) Starlink will pose too much of a risk due to falling debris.
2) Sure, SpaceX made starlink fully demisable, but Starlink’s high altitude LEO shell will cause an unacceptable risk to future generations due to LEO debris.
3) Sure, Starlink’s altitude is now lowered to a largely self-cleaning low LEO altitude, but the numerous satellites will ruin the sky for starwatchers for all time.

4) Sure, Starlink now has visors that make them invisible to the naked eye once reaching operational attitude/altitude, but...

The concern trolls are using old space thinking that what you see is what you get. SpaceX is knocking off the challenges off one by one, same as they always have. Also, if anyone thinks that the initial speed tests and latency test are any indication of what it will be like down they road, they are mistaken. This network, in spite of additional users joining in will see improvement over time, and I think SpaceX will continue to stay ahead of demand, unlike incumbent ISP's who put their six month upgrade orders in when a network is already over saturated. Things that will improve performance from the beta tests:

More satellites - many more satellites
Improved hardware and software - both satellite and end user
More ground stations, more bandwidth on each
Satellite to Satellite laser links.

SpaceX will not stand still. They are just getting started, an the promised speeds and latencies look like they possible considering this is only a beta test with new hardware and limited satellites. Looks pretty promising.

Offline Callezetter

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1829 on: 09/03/2020 03:45 pm »
The same persons who also can't fathom that there is likely a big cross-pollination between the SpaceX and Tesla teams because "that's not how business is done". There must be A LOT of areas where it's a pure win-win to share research and experience between the companies when it comes to metal alloys, scaling of manufacturing, or life support systems just to name a few.

Online wannamoonbase

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1830 on: 09/03/2020 04:08 pm »
Man, SpaceX sure gives Starlink concern-trolls a workout having to constantly move the goalposts...

1) Starlink is vaporware.
2) Starlink I sn’t vaporware, but OneWeb will beat them to deployment. SpaceX won’t be able to ramp up production fast enough because they have no satellite experience.
3) OneWeb won’t beat them to deployment and SpaceX can ramp production, but the user terminals don’t exist.
4) The user terminals exist, but SpaceX won’t ever be able to do laser satellite links.

5) Sure the laser links have been tested on-orbit, but...

We’re right here.

And probably should add:
1) Starlink will pose too much of a risk due to falling debris.
2) Sure, SpaceX made starlink fully demisable, but Starlink’s high altitude LEO shell will cause an unacceptable risk to future generations due to LEO debris.
3) Sure, Starlink’s altitude is now lowered to a largely self-cleaning low LEO altitude, but the numerous satellites will ruin the sky for starwatchers for all time.

4) Sure, Starlink now has visors that make them invisible to the naked eye once reaching operational attitude/altitude, but...

The satellite and telecom people obviously were't paying attention when SpaceX played the same trick on the launch vehicle industry experts about 5 years ago.

SpaceX successfully landed it's first booster almost 5 years ago.  However, they started working on it years before that.

That's what people miss with Elon Musk led ventures.  He sets the ethos and works on things for years, then one day people notice and think it's an over night success.  Raptor has been almost 10 years, Starlink is about 5 years I think.

What SpaceX, Starlink (and Tesla) do better than anyone else is relentlessly iterate.  Get something out there, learn from it and continue revising and improving.  The Falcon 9 is the best example of this, but they do this on everything they do.

Starlink 5 years from now, who knows what they'll be doing.  You can be certain they'll be years ahead of anyone else.
Starship 2022, can't wait!!

Offline Kansan52

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1831 on: 09/03/2020 04:20 pm »
Not only do they iterate, they pivot. I have followed since before F1-1 and then an F5 was envisioned. That F5 never occurred and the F1 was dropped when they pivoted to the F9.

Offline capoman

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1832 on: 09/03/2020 07:17 pm »
Not only do they iterate, they pivot. I have followed since before F1-1 and then an F5 was envisioned. That F5 never occurred and the F1 was dropped when they pivoted to the F9.

And Stainless Steel for Starship was their biggest pivot so far. Hard to anticipate what pivots they could do with Starlink. Maybe they'll buyout a fiber company and build a hybrid system within Starlink.

Offline thirtyone

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1833 on: 09/04/2020 01:59 am »
There's also some less tangible advantages SpaceX has that most business types in these industries probably have trouble quantifying. You have to realize the Elon's speaks the language of engineers and knows what gets them excited. The best engineers work on a project because they genuinely love the idea, and couldn't care less how much they get paid or how much work they have to put into it. That's IMO one of the biggest reasons SpaceX/Tesla can pull off all sorts of things that big aerospace / communications companies just can't. I think Elon's tweeted about this before - that maybe it was a little unfair, because his companies really kind of have a monopoly on the 'best' (frankly, most engineering output per dollar) engineers available. I honestly believe the difference, if quantified, could easily be an order of magnitude in engineering value per dollar/time/etc.

In some ways, it's a bit of a positive feedback loop - by having such extreme but still nearly realistic goals, SpaceX can attract that talent that actually makes such goals possible. And then when those engineers get tired and overworked, they can take a break and work for, erm, a more traditional aerospace company while they're not at full output...

I mention this because one of the most brilliant engineers I know just told announced (when the webcast came out) that he had been busy working on ISLs for the past year, and that it all finally worked. They have been indeed very quiet about progress related to Starlink compared to other SpaceX projects.
« Last Edit: 09/04/2020 02:06 am by thirtyone »

Online freddo411

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1834 on: 09/04/2020 02:13 am »
Not only do they iterate, they pivot. I have followed since before F1-1 and then an F5 was envisioned. That F5 never occurred and the F1 was dropped when they pivoted to the F9.

And Stainless Steel for Starship was their biggest pivot so far. Hard to anticipate what pivots they could do with Starlink. Maybe they'll buyout a fiber company and build a hybrid system within Starlink.

I think some kind of ground based infrastructure will be needed to make a compelling, coherent telecommunication offering.   There are many customers in the western US that are currently underserved served, but densely packed enough that one or two towers on local high spots would work.    This would be a good way to add customers without saturating the orbital assets

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1835 on: 09/04/2020 03:18 am »
From an FCC filing today (not really anything new besides this page)

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1836 on: 09/04/2020 03:21 am »
From an FCC filing today (not really anything new besides this page)
Any word about lasers in the FCC filing? (not that they need FCC approval for optical)
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline lonestriker

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1837 on: 09/04/2020 04:58 am »
SpaceX successfully landed it's first booster almost 5 years ago.  However, they started working on it years before that.

That's what people miss with Elon Musk led ventures.  He sets the ethos and works on things for years, then one day people notice and think it's an over night success.  Raptor has been almost 10 years, Starlink is about 5 years I think.

What SpaceX, Starlink (and Tesla) do better than anyone else is relentlessly iterate.  Get something out there, learn from it and continue revising and improving.  The Falcon 9 is the best example of this, but they do this on everything they do.

Starlink 5 years from now, who knows what they'll be doing.  You can be certain they'll be years ahead of anyone else.

People also forget that there was doom and gloom when Elon fired Starlink leadership in 2018 for being too slow.  They have a strategy that seems to have worked for them in most other endeavors and follow the Silicon Valley software startup ethos: get the minimally viable product up and running quickly and then iterate quickly and deploy often.  The pace at which they've been innovating has seemingly been increasing; particularly if you throw in the concerns from astronomers regarding both optical and radio interference that SpaceX had to address along with their tech improvements.

To go from Tintin A and B two years ago, to ~11 launches of ~60 satellites is an insane pace.


Offline bodhiandphysics

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1838 on: 09/04/2020 08:24 am »
Hmm... just noticed this... what do you think is hanging out on Starlink?

MODELING AND SIMULATION ENGINEER (TOP SECRET CLEARANCE)
Hawthorne, CA, United States


MODELING AND SIMULATION ENGINEER

The Modeling and Simulation Engineer will be instrumental to the design, optimization and execution of SpaceX developed satellite constellations and payload missions. You will gather requirements around customer payload requests, develop simulations and models of the constellation request and work cross-functionally to integrate models of payload criteria. You will identify key performance parameters and constraints to enable mission success and future payload capabilities.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1839 on: 09/04/2020 01:55 pm »
This would be required of any natsec related payloads on Starlink.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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