For All Mankind

[Nibb31]

Well, they might as well have warp drives and light sabers at this point. We've moved into magical plot device territory.

This show has jumped the C-5 Galaxy.

[Robotbeat]

Well, they might as well have warp drives and light sabers at this point. We've moved into magical plot device territory.

This show has jumped the C-5 Galaxy.

Um, the post above you was talking about a real thing that happened in real life.

[Robotbeat]

Haven’t watched today’s episode, but want to make a comment about the situation from last week’s episode:

In a situation like this, it’d be better to be TOO careful with rules of engagement and risk getting shot first than to accidentally shoot the adversary due to a miscommunication. Self-preservation is not why you go into space or become a marine. I’d hope that in real life we train better so that people understand the consequences that accidentally shooting a geopolitical rival would have, how it would damage the peace and potentially lead to a war where a lot more people would die. Also, the Americans outnumbered their opponents.

But humans are flawed. Real life shows that our training is NOT so perfect as we’d like.

[ncb1397]

Haven’t watched today’s episode, but want to make a comment about the situation from last week’s episode:

In a situation like this, it’d be better to be TOO careful with rules of engagement and risk getting shot first than to accidentally shoot the adversary due to a miscommunication. Self-preservation is not why you go into space or become a marine. I’d hope that in real life we train better so that people understand the consequences that accidentally shooting a geopolitical rival would have, how it would damage the peace and potentially lead to a war where a lot more people would die. Also, the Americans outnumbered their opponents.

But humans are flawed. Real life shows that our training is NOT so perfect as we’d like.

I'm not going to spoil it, but the poster referring to lightsabers/whatever might be talking about some Pathfinder stuff that happens.

[soyuzu]

Haven’t watched today’s episode, but want to make a comment about the situation from last week’s episode:

In a situation like this, it’d be better to be TOO careful with rules of engagement and risk getting shot first than to accidentally shoot the adversary due to a miscommunication. Self-preservation is not why you go into space or become a marine. I’d hope that in real life we train better so that people understand the consequences that accidentally shooting a geopolitical rival would have, how it would damage the peace and potentially lead to a war where a lot more people would die. Also, the Americans outnumbered their opponents.

But humans are flawed. Real life shows that our training is NOT so perfect as we’d like.

I'm not going to spoil it, but the poster referring to lightsabers/whatever might be talking about some Pathfinder stuff that happens.

Is it possible to have NTR other than solid-fueled fielded in 1980s? Like Nuclear lightbulb, liquid core, etc.

[libra]

Ted Taylor creates and hybrid of NERVA and TRIGA - pulsed NTR. And boom, 7000 seconds specific impulse NTR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Taylor_(physicist)
+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIGA
+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Rover
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NERVA
=
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_nuclear_thermal_rocket

Basically - Ted Taylor worked at Los Alamos (ROVER, NERVA) until 1956 when he moved to General Atomics, where he created TRIGA and Orion with Freeman Dyson.

Maybe ITTL he got the pulsed NTR idea in the 60's. And later it was declassified and applied to Pathfinder...

[Nibb31]

How would NTR work on a reusable vehicle? I wouldn't want to go anywhere near that engine after it has fired.

[ncb1397]

How would NTR work on a reusable vehicle? I wouldn't want to go anywhere near that engine after it has fired.

Same way that NERVA technicians worked on the equipment after grounds tests?

[LM13]

As a historical note, per Heppenheimer's "Developing the Space Shuttle," the C-5 was actually proposed as a shuttle carrier aircraft in real history.  The reason the 747 was chosen instead was flight dynamics--see, when an Orbiter separates from the back of a 747, aerodynamic forces push the two vehicles apart even without pilot input.  But the C-5, in wind-tunnel tests, showed the opposite phenomenon--air currents would drive it up into the Shuttle's belly.

I guess Pathfinder has some very different aerodynamics that somehow solve this problem. 

[sanman]

[SPOILERS]
So regarding the scene with Pathfinder - I'm just wondering if it was NTR or some kind of plasma thruster? It seemed to  have the whitish look of plasma, but seemed to be accelerating faster than that, like it was NTR. See, this is why it's trickier to do hard sci-fi, because we're trying to skirt the boundaries of reality in appealing ways.

I found the scenario of Soviet cosmonaut trying to defect to likewise be cliché and implausible. Whoever risks their neck to go all the way to the Moon isn't going to be weak-kneed about their own country, and wouldn't be sent there in the first place.

The final scene of the Soviet assault on the Jamestown base was interesting and dramatic (they've got a lot of air in that moonbase). I'm assuming that their attack was actually to recover the defecting cosmonaut, and not to carry out mere reciprocal retaliation.


So it looks like Molly has stayed away from the surgeon's knife for the time being?

I don't think Karen should have disclosed her affair to Ed like that (that would be the worst way to hurt and distract him for his upcoming mission). She should've just kept her mouth shut until later.


Seeing Dr Sally Ride handling a pistol was quite the fun fanservice moment. 
Maybe we'll get to see if Ride can ride shotgun 

[/SPOILERS]

[Joris]

How would NTR work on a reusable vehicle? I wouldn't want to go anywhere near that engine after it has fired.

Reactors generate a lot more radiation when on, and an NTR is on for a really short amount of time compared to a regular reactor so radiactive products don't build up as much. (Uranium itself isn't that radioactive because of its long halflife.) Wouldn't be surprised if CMBR causes a bigger dose with a bunch of spaceship between the reactor and crew.

I guess Pathfinder has some very different aerodynamics that somehow solve this problem. 

I think it is to show the militarization of NASA and the new shuttle. Next season is supposed to become more sci-fi so we're bound to see some intermediate steps between the NASA flights and the space opera battles of next season.

I wonder if the season finale is going to show the Mars stuff that was hinted at, or if we are going to have to wait for that as we get to see the two spaceplanse shooting eachother on their maiden flights.

[su27k]

Regarding Pathfinder: Nuclear powered SSTO is not completely crazy, here's some past discussions on this forum:

Nuclear single stage to orbit

LH2 Fueled Turbo/Ram/Scram/NTR/MPD SSTO Space-Plane

Here's a NTRS paper quoted in one of the threads: Analysis of a Nuclear Enhanced Airbreathing Rocket for Earth to Orbit Applications

And then there's Soviet M-19 "Gurkolyot" concept: M-19 “Gurkolyot”: Grab the Problem by the Throat, Not the Tail

I mean in real life it's probably a boondoggle and money pit, but I don't think there's anything wrong with using it as plot device. I would be more upset about how they can refuel Shuttle without its external tank...

[Nibb31]

I'm more amazed by restarting the (cryo fueled) SSMEs in lunar orbit for the TEI burn without an ET. They must have some sort of magical reusable RS-24 that runs on storable propellant that fits in the cargo bay.

But then why they would bother with having OMS pods? And why would they use a shuttle in the first place if the cargo bay is full of tanks?

And if they had such a magical propulsion system, there would be no need for nuclear propulsion at all.

[sanman]

Posted on youtube under Fair Use:



I liked how they used the camera angle to mislead us into thinking it was a standard STS-style vertical launch, and then changed over at the last minute.

Shouldn't the C-5 carrier aircraft have to be in some kind of negative dive in order to achieve a safe separation?

The Pathfinder spacecraft has the large upper nacelles like the Space Shuttle - would these likely be for hydrazine OMS? It also has what looks to be a small token vertical stabilizer between those nacelles - or could that just be an antenna?

They do mention NERVA, so that makes it NTR. I wonder whether they have to refuel for more propellant at Skylab, just like their regular shuttles do before going on to the Moon?

The nuclear-powered Pathfinder is being sent as an armed escort for Sea Dragon, in order to deter lunar blockade by the armed Soviet Buran shuttle. It seems like adding nuclear propulsive reactors to the situation would only add the danger of nuclear contamination.

[Nibb31]

It would have made sense to make it a C-5 SCA with redesigned vertical stabilizers. There is a huge risk of contact there, and more importantly, aerodynamic turbulence.

[sanman]

The An-225 did have an unconventional tail, though I'm not exactly sure why

[sanman]

The Enterprise test vehicle seemed to be able to lift off the top of its 747 carrier aircraft pretty easily, without the need for the aircraft to be in a dive. Also, the tail section didn't seem to get in the way either:

[hektor]

So in this Universe the final Apollo flight is Apollo 45.

And the Sea Dragon escorted by Pathfinder is #17...

I realized also  that Lee Atwater is a real historical character.

I wonder now who will succeed Reagan in 1984. I also wonder if and when Elon Musk will appear. What would he be up to in such a Universe ?

[sanman]

So in this Universe the final Apollo flight is Apollo 45.

And the Sea Dragon escorted by Pathfinder is #17...

I realized also  that Lee Atwater is a real historical character.

I wonder now who will succeed Reagan in 1984. I also wonder if and when Elon Musk will appear. What would he be up to in such a Universe ?

I think when they were announcing the launch of Danielle Poole & co for the Apollo-Soyuz mission, they called it out as Apollo 75
The Saturn production line must have been quite busy.

Speaking of which - there was a scene of a Saturn rocket launching off some very tall pedestal. What was that all about?

[libra]

So in this Universe the final Apollo flight is Apollo 45.

And the Sea Dragon escorted by Pathfinder is #17...

I realized also  that Lee Atwater is a real historical character.

I wonder now who will succeed Reagan in 1984. I also wonder if and when Elon Musk will appear. What would he be up to in such a Universe ?

Like hell, he was real. Unfortunately, I would say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogie_Man:_The_Lee_Atwater_Story

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater

And a good friend of Karl Rove, Roger Stone, and Paul Manafort. Which says... a lot. I'll stop RIGHT HERE not to get political.