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Reactionless device using the principle of Pascal for fluids by esposcar on 11 Mar, 2019 01:40
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I have a pending patent of the invention of a reactionless device version that uses the principle of Pascal, to move moving mass to stationary mass. As you can view in this device example, the 3 pics that I uploaded, you can view in 3 steps, how does this device works. I would like to know, if it violates any Newtons or Pascal law, and if not, would it be considered a working reactionless device?
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#1 by meberbs on 11 Mar, 2019 05:37
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I would like to know, if it violates any Newtons or Pascal law, and if not, would it be considered a working reactionless device?
The second half of your question can be reworded and has the exact same meaning as the following:
"if this device obeys the law of equal and opposite reactions, then is it a device that violates the law of equal and opposite reactions?"
Hopefully that rewording makes the answer clear, and independent of any details of your device.
Too many new posters who present ideas like yours react poorly to being told "no" for me to want to spend much time on a device specific answer, at least before having some evidence that you are interested in listening. It would do you more good to work it out yourself. (Hint: at some point to get from A to B, the fluid must have momentum that is at least partially pointed to the right.)
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#2 by dustinthewind on 12 Mar, 2019 03:31
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Another way of looking at it might be the conservation of the center of mass of the system - before and after the net momentum returns to zero - after the shifting of the fluid.Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass
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emphasis on new big mass and little mass.
The Law of Conservation of Momentum predicts that for any system not subjected to external forces the momentum of the system will remain constant, which means the center of mass will move with constant velocity. This applies for all systems with classical internal forces, including magnetic fields, electric fields, chemical reactions, and so on. More formally, this is true for any internal forces that cancel in accordance with Newton's Third Law.[11]
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Edit: in your case linear motion not circular motion. -
#3 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 12:56
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Another way of looking at it might be the conservation of the center of mass of the system - before and after the net momentum returns to zero - after the shifting of the fluid.
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass...
emphasis on new big mass and little mass.
The Law of Conservation of Momentum predicts that for any system not subjected to external forces the momentum of the system will remain constant, which means the center of mass will move with constant velocity. This applies for all systems with classical internal forces, including magnetic fields, electric fields, chemical reactions, and so on. More formally, this is true for any internal forces that cancel in accordance with Newton's Third Law.[11]
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The device is linear and if the shifting of the fluid happens in an acceleration, like a rotational device, it would not work, because the lose of fluid would increase the acceleration. Just responding to the moon and the earth pic Lol.
In my next post I have done two animations (excuse me for the amateur flow of the animation) to show how it would work in my humble opinion, and I will give details to show, that the only forces present inside a confined and isolated fluid, the only force that exist is pression. About momentum, if you think about it, its the velocity of an object what gives sense to the momentum, not the mass or the object itself, so during the tranfer, velocity wont be transmited, and only mass will be transmited, because pression avoid the enter of more forces inside the fluid (exception of gravity), I mean that you can do a force to push a piston, but the piston will transmit this force as pression. Pression in a fluid is distributed every where, its vector force, goes everywhere, and that is the secret. Mainly, momentum will affect the pipe structure itself, the two containers structure (Walls that confine the fluid, pistons etc), but not the fluid itself. The pipe will be always full of fluid and no flow will happen, it will just translate the fluid mass, because fluids behave different than solids. Anyway I will add some examples to show it also. In 2 hours I will expose it. Thank you for the critics. -
#4 by RotoSequence on 12 Mar, 2019 13:12
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PBS Spacetime did an episode about a week ago on perpetual motion machines. This proposal seems to fit into this category.
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#5 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 13:37
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PBS Spacetime did an episode about a week ago on perpetual motion machines. This proposal seems to fit into this category.
Can you tell me in which second appears something similar to this device? Which category? moving fluids responds like solids, that means obeys Newton laws, but I am talking about moving confined and totally pressed fluid with income and output pistons, that means using the principle of Pascal, and I did not see nothing similar. Just moving fluids in a rotational way which is not the way this device behaves if you take a better look to the description in the three pics. It has absolutly nothing to do with this. But I will settle in the next post some examples, more clear, because I have the sensation, that I have not explained good the device, despite of the visual. Its three pics, that show the beginning of the function of the device, the middle function and the end. And if you see the working way, its very simple so it dont let doubts. -
#6 by meberbs on 12 Mar, 2019 13:40
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The device is linear and if the shifting of the fluid happens in an acceleration, like a rotational device, it would not work, because the lose of fluid would increase the acceleration. Just responding to the moon and the earth pic Lol.
The device being linear is nothing to do with it.
In my next post I have done two animations (excuse me for the amateur flow of the animation) to show how it would work in my humble opinion, and I will give details to show, that the only forces present inside a confined and isolated fluid, the only force that exist is pression. About momentum, if you think about it, its the velocity of an object what gives sense to the momentum, not the mass or the object itself, so during the tranfer, velocity wont be transmited, and only mass will be transmited, because pression avoid the enter of more forces inside the fluid (exception of gravity), I mean that you can do a force to push a piston, but the piston will transmit this force as pression. Pression in a fluid is distributed every where, its vector force, goes everywhere, and that is the secret. Mainly, momentum will affect the pipe structure itself, the two containers structure (Walls that confine the fluid, pistons etc), but not the fluid itself. The pipe will be always full of fluid and no flow will happen, it will just translate the fluid mass, because fluids behave different than solids. Anyway I will add some examples to show it also. In 2 hours I will expose it. Thank you for the critics.
Newton's law is universal and applies to anything with mass including fluids. Pascal's only applies to a non-moving fluid. (Note the phrase "at rest" in the definition on Wikipedia ) Fluid flowing through a bent pipe has a force applied to it by the pipe to cause the flow to change direction. You can easily feel this force if you are spraying water from a garden hose. The way you describe pipes is as if they are magical teleportation devices, where the fluid is not actually in motion, but that is simply wrong. -
#7 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 13:49
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The device is linear and if the shifting of the fluid happens in an acceleration, like a rotational device, it would not work, because the lose of fluid would increase the acceleration. Just responding to the moon and the earth pic Lol.
The device being linear is nothing to do with it.
In my next post I have done two animations (excuse me for the amateur flow of the animation) to show how it would work in my humble opinion, and I will give details to show, that the only forces present inside a confined and isolated fluid, the only force that exist is pression. About momentum, if you think about it, its the velocity of an object what gives sense to the momentum, not the mass or the object itself, so during the tranfer, velocity wont be transmited, and only mass will be transmited, because pression avoid the enter of more forces inside the fluid (exception of gravity), I mean that you can do a force to push a piston, but the piston will transmit this force as pression. Pression in a fluid is distributed every where, its vector force, goes everywhere, and that is the secret. Mainly, momentum will affect the pipe structure itself, the two containers structure (Walls that confine the fluid, pistons etc), but not the fluid itself. The pipe will be always full of fluid and no flow will happen, it will just translate the fluid mass, because fluids behave different than solids. Anyway I will add some examples to show it also. In 2 hours I will expose it. Thank you for the critics.
Newton's law is universal and applies to anything with mass including fluids. Pascal's only applies to a non-moving fluid. (Note the phrase "at rest" in the definition on Wikipedia ) Fluid flowing through a bent pipe has a force applied to it by the pipe to cause the flow to change direction. You can easily feel this force if you are spraying water from a garden hose. The way you describe pipes is as if they are magical teleportation devices, where the fluid is not actually in motion, but that is simply wrong.
Soory to contradict you but that is not true. A fluid engineer can tell you that, the fluid is transmited as a block. At a constant velocity there is no force applied to the moving container. And in the transfer during a constant velocity, there is NO FLOW inside the fluid, 0. A force by the way that is applied by the piston perpendicular to the motion of the container by the way. And about the garden pipe, of course you notice Newton force, because the fluid is not confined, and it behaves like Newton says. But please let me finish the animation and settle some examples, and you can answer.
You can move in a platform at constant velocity in the same way as if you are in a stationary platform. So the moving of the fluid will be done in that mode, not in acceleration. Your example is not good about the garden, because le fluid is not confined, there are no pistons that retain the water, and the water will spread with Newton laws, as a missile throws it mass, but in this case, the fluid dont go out anywhere. If you put a moving piston and another piston in the opposite side of a pipe full of fluid, and you push one of the pistons, you wont notice anything if you put your hand in the middle of the pipe. No flow -
#8 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 14:07
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Here is a link that answers how the pipe would behave during the transfer of fluids.
https://www.explainthatstuff.com/hydraulics.html -
#9 by meberbs on 12 Mar, 2019 14:55
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Soory to contradict you but that is not true. A fluid engineer can tell you that, the fluid is transmited as a block.
You aren't contradicting me, you are contradicting every scientist and engineer on this planet. Any fluid engineer, or even a good plumber could tell you that you are wrong.At a constant velocity there is no force applied to the moving container. And in the transfer during a constant velocity, there is NO FLOW inside the fluid, 0.
based on some Fench words you have slipped in, I am guessing that your native language is French, so run the next paragraph though a translator if you need to:
By definition, a fluid moving through a pipe from one container to another is flowing. There is nothing "constant velocity" about the fluid moving through the pipe, because velocity includes direction, and there are bends in the pipe which change the direction of the flow.And about the garden pipe, of course you notice Newton force, because the fluid is not confined, and it behaves like Newton says. But please let me finish the animation and settle some examples, and you can answer.
Newton's laws are universal, that means that whether the fluid is confined or not is irrelevant to them. Pascal's law does not cover the case when fluid is moving from one container to another, it only covers the static case, when the fluid is moving from one container to another through a pipe, there are additional forces due to the motion of the fluid.Here is a link that answers how the pipe would behave during the transfer of fluids.
No, that link simply does not discuss the the forces on the pipe through the bends. It assumes the pipe is held by something very heavy (you in the case of the water pistol, the main body of construction equipment in the other case.) Actually, it contradicts you by showing that there is nothing wrong with using something open on one end like a water pistol or garden hose for explaining these things.
https://www.explainthatstuff.com/hydraulics.html
Your animation will not help anything, it is already clear that your mistake is that you want to assume that pipes just teleport liquid from one place to another. No animation will change the fact that in real life, fluids are moving through pipes, and that those pipes have additional forces on them (and by Newton's laws, equal and opposite forces on the fluid) than solely what is described by Pascal's law. -
#10 by Almurray1958 on 12 Mar, 2019 14:56
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If, as you state, you have a patent pending, be prepared to build and submit a "working model". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Patents
. If you manage to make a working model, you've proven your invention and theory. If not, you've proven hundreds of years of physics correct.
Good luck. -
#11 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 15:05
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If, as you state, you have a patent pending, be prepared to build and submit a "working model". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Patents
. If you manage to make a working model, you've proven your invention and theory. If not, you've proven hundreds of years of physics correct.
Good luck.
I agree, btw I am working in two new concepts that came from this idea. The only problem with this version that I showed, is that with gravity and friction, it wont work good or nothing. Consider that if you take mass from moving, it will weight less, and friction will be less, also there is no constant velocity, because you need always acelleration in earth, and that makes this difficult to execute in earth sadly. But I am with another 2 version as I said, and I think I can have a working model. -
#12 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 15:11
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If, as you state, you have a patent pending, be prepared to build and submit a "working model". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Patents
. If you manage to make a working model, you've proven your invention and theory. If not, you've proven hundreds of years of physics correct.
Good luck.
Tell me something, if in my next post, i show that momentum is not transfered in anyway from the moving container to the stationary container through the pipe, it could begin to be considered, this deviced more interesant
?
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#13 by meberbs on 12 Mar, 2019 15:25
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Tell me something, if in my next post, i show that momentum is not transfered in anyway from the moving container to the stationary container through the pipe, it could begin to be considered, this deviced more interesant
It is trivial to make an animation that ignores Newton's laws and conservation of momentum.?
You have already stated that you built a version of this and it didn't work, for which you blamed "gravity and friction" with no detailed explanation. If you try enough times, it seems likely you could tune it to take advantage of the difference between static and dynamic friction, and get it to appear to move, but really it would just be pushing off of the surface it is sitting on. Or if you do get friction low enough it will move slightly to the side to keep its center of mass in place, and then move back as it resets to its original configuration, assuming it has a built in reset mechanism. -
#14 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 15:31
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Tell me something, if in my next post, i show that momentum is not transfered in anyway from the moving container to the stationary container through the pipe, it could begin to be considered, this deviced more interesant
It is trivial to make an animation that ignores Newton's laws and conservation of momentum.?
You have already stated that you built a version of this and it didn't work, for which you blamed "gravity and friction" with no detailed explanation. If you try enough times, it seems likely you could tune it to take advantage of the difference between static and dynamic friction, and get it to appear to move, but really it would just be pushing off of the surface it is sitting on. Or if you do get friction low enough it will move slightly to the side to keep its center of mass in place, and then move back as it resets to its original configuration, assuming it has a built in reset mechanism.
Read again my message because you have not understood anything. This is from my last post...."The only problem with this version that I showed, is that with gravity and friction, it wont work good or nothing." Where did I said that I already tested a model and did not work? I never done a physical model. -
#15 by meberbs on 12 Mar, 2019 15:47
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Read again my message because you have not understood anything. This is from my last post...."The only problem with this version that I showed, is that with gravity and friction, it wont work good or nothing." Where did I said that I already tested a model and did not work? I never done a physical model.
You said that you were working on a version 2, in response to a question about building a working model. That implies that there was a version 1. "But I am with another 2 version as I said, and I think I can have a working model." There is a bit of a grammar problem with that sentence, and since I assume there is a language barrier here, I can see where the miscommunication may have come from, but your previous post sounds like you built a model and it didn't work.
My point about not explaining why gravity and friction are a problem stands. Actually, all of my points stand, since you have simply ignored them and repeated assertions that pipes are magic devices that teleport liquids and violate conservation of momentum. You are the one who has some serious misunderstandings, and you should review my posts again, ask me if there are any parts that aren't clear enough and I can try to reword them. -
#16 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 15:57
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Read again my message because you have not understood anything. This is from my last post...."The only problem with this version that I showed, is that with gravity and friction, it wont work good or nothing." Where did I said that I already tested a model and did not work? I never done a physical model.
You said that you were working on a version 2, in response to a question about building a working model. That implies that there was a version 1. "But I am with another 2 version as I said, and I think I can have a working model." There is a bit of a grammar problem with that sentence, and since I assume there is a language barrier here, I can see where the miscommunication may have come from, but your previous post sounds like you built a model and it didn't work.
Well, possibly a bad communication. But I am from Spain, so its not the same. This 3 pics in the entry of the topic, is my version 1, but I have 2 other versions of the same invention.
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#17 by whitelancer64 on 12 Mar, 2019 16:07
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The device is linear and if the shifting of the fluid happens in an acceleration, like a rotational device, it would not work, because the lose of fluid would increase the acceleration. Just responding to the moon and the earth pic Lol.
The device being linear is nothing to do with it.
In my next post I have done two animations (excuse me for the amateur flow of the animation) to show how it would work in my humble opinion, and I will give details to show, that the only forces present inside a confined and isolated fluid, the only force that exist is pression. About momentum, if you think about it, its the velocity of an object what gives sense to the momentum, not the mass or the object itself, so during the tranfer, velocity wont be transmited, and only mass will be transmited, because pression avoid the enter of more forces inside the fluid (exception of gravity), I mean that you can do a force to push a piston, but the piston will transmit this force as pression. Pression in a fluid is distributed every where, its vector force, goes everywhere, and that is the secret. Mainly, momentum will affect the pipe structure itself, the two containers structure (Walls that confine the fluid, pistons etc), but not the fluid itself. The pipe will be always full of fluid and no flow will happen, it will just translate the fluid mass, because fluids behave different than solids. Anyway I will add some examples to show it also. In 2 hours I will expose it. Thank you for the critics.
Newton's law is universal and applies to anything with mass including fluids. Pascal's only applies to a non-moving fluid. (Note the phrase "at rest" in the definition on Wikipedia ) Fluid flowing through a bent pipe has a force applied to it by the pipe to cause the flow to change direction. You can easily feel this force if you are spraying water from a garden hose. The way you describe pipes is as if they are magical teleportation devices, where the fluid is not actually in motion, but that is simply wrong.
1 Soory to contradict you but that is not true. A fluid engineer can tell you that, the fluid is transmited as a block. At a constant velocity there is no force applied to the moving container. And in the transfer during a constant velocity, there is NO FLOW inside the fluid, 0.
*snip*
2 If you put a moving piston and another piston in the opposite side of a pipe full of fluid, and you push one of the pistons, you wont notice anything if you put your hand in the middle of the pipe. No flow
Fluid in, and moving in, a pipe always exerts pressure on the pipe. The only time there is zero pressure in a pipe is if the pipe is empty.
A pipe with two pistons DOES move the hydraulic fluid, yes, there is flow - so the second part is also wrong.
Are you familiar with Bernoulli's principle and the related equations? -
#18 by esposcar on 12 Mar, 2019 16:16
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The device is linear and if the shifting of the fluid happens in an acceleration, like a rotational device, it would not work, because the lose of fluid would increase the acceleration. Just responding to the moon and the earth pic Lol.
The device being linear is nothing to do with it.
In my next post I have done two animations (excuse me for the amateur flow of the animation) to show how it would work in my humble opinion, and I will give details to show, that the only forces present inside a confined and isolated fluid, the only force that exist is pression. About momentum, if you think about it, its the velocity of an object what gives sense to the momentum, not the mass or the object itself, so during the tranfer, velocity wont be transmited, and only mass will be transmited, because pression avoid the enter of more forces inside the fluid (exception of gravity), I mean that you can do a force to push a piston, but the piston will transmit this force as pression. Pression in a fluid is distributed every where, its vector force, goes everywhere, and that is the secret. Mainly, momentum will affect the pipe structure itself, the two containers structure (Walls that confine the fluid, pistons etc), but not the fluid itself. The pipe will be always full of fluid and no flow will happen, it will just translate the fluid mass, because fluids behave different than solids. Anyway I will add some examples to show it also. In 2 hours I will expose it. Thank you for the critics.
Newton's law is universal and applies to anything with mass including fluids. Pascal's only applies to a non-moving fluid. (Note the phrase "at rest" in the definition on Wikipedia ) Fluid flowing through a bent pipe has a force applied to it by the pipe to cause the flow to change direction. You can easily feel this force if you are spraying water from a garden hose. The way you describe pipes is as if they are magical teleportation devices, where the fluid is not actually in motion, but that is simply wrong.
1 Soory to contradict you but that is not true. A fluid engineer can tell you that, the fluid is transmited as a block. At a constant velocity there is no force applied to the moving container. And in the transfer during a constant velocity, there is NO FLOW inside the fluid, 0.
*snip*
2 If you put a moving piston and another piston in the opposite side of a pipe full of fluid, and you push one of the pistons, you wont notice anything if you put your hand in the middle of the pipe. No flow
Fluid in, and moving in, a pipe always exerts pressure on the pipe. The only time there is zero pressure in a pipe is if the pipe is empty.
A pipe with two pistons DOES move the hydraulic fluid, yes, there is flow - so the second part is also wrong.
Are you familiar with Bernoulli's principle and the related equations?
1. Pascals Law
This states that the fluid transmits equal pressure in all directions. This law is also responsible for the derivation of the hydrostatic law
Dell P = rho*g*h.
2. Bernoulli's principle
This is an application of conservation of energy. This is normally used to find conditions at a particular point when we know the conditions at some other point. But be careful. This is applicable only for non-viscous, incompressible and steady flows. Put mercury in the as the fluid, if you want to be sure that dont applies Bernoulli principle in this case.
Bernoulli's equation is about energy conservation within a fluid in motion and is not applicable in hydrostatic situations where pressure differences dominate. Lets begin to give proper arguments.
By the way, pressure is in all the fluid equal. All the infinite directions, its not a vector force. Very important point.
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#19 by meberbs on 12 Mar, 2019 16:31
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Well, possibly a bad communication. But I am from Spain, so its not the same. This 3 pics in the entry of the topic, is my version 1, but I have 2 other versions of the same invention.
Your profile says Canada, and you mixed in a couple French words, so French was my assumption. While your English seems better than my out of practice Spanish, if anything I said is particularly confusing to you, I can attempt a Spanish translation to clarify.1. Pascals Law
You left off the fact that this is only true when the fluid is stationary, not while it is transferring from one container to another. When flowing through a bent pipe, there are additional forces present beyond what is stated in that equation.
This states that the fluid transmits equal pressure in all directions. This law is also responsible for the derivation of the hydrostatic law
Dell P = rho*g*h.2. Bernoulli's principle
Mercury is a strawman and irrelevant. The issue in that case is friction with the side of the pipes, which is again an additional force, it doesn't make forces due to other things go away, and to some extent is present with any fluid.
This is an application of conservation of energy. This is normally used to find conditions at a particular point when we know the conditions at some other point. But be careful. This is applicable only for non-viscous, incompressible and steady flows. Put mercury in the as the fluid, if you want to be sure that dont applies Bernoulli principle in this case.Bernoulli's equation is about energy conservation within a fluid in motion and is not applicable in hydrostatic situations where pressure differences dominate. Lets begin to give proper arguments.
Yes, it would be nice if you could begin to give proper arguments. You have not described a hydrostatic situation, you have described a situation where fluid is moving from one container to another, and there are forces involved due to the fluid motion that you are ignoring.By the way, pressure is in all the fluid equal. All the infinite directions, its not a vector force. Very important point.
Pressure is not equal at all points in a moving fluid (Also, gravity, but it is easy to make that irrelevant by placing your device on its side). Also, while pressure is not a vector quantity, when it acts on a surface, it creates a force in a direction normal (perpendicular) to that surface, which does have direction.
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