Author Topic: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)  (Read 4712 times)

Online Lars-J

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Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« on: 02/23/2019 02:25 am »
Looks like the follow-on project to Callisto (the VTVL demostration project) has been announced - or proposed. Themis.

This looks like a large-ish reusable first stage with clustered Prometheus Methalox engines.

https://twitter.com/ArianeGroup/status/1098552839562031104

If the concept in the video is right, it looks like a possible Ariane 6 replacement. (or the first stage of a Ariane 6 replacement)

An article:
https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/air-defense/0600743132085-le-cnes-et-arianegroup-sallient-pour-etudier-un-lanceur-reutilisable-2246691.php
Here is a google translated section:
Quote
"The test on Prometheus bench will take place in 2020, the first flight of Callisto should intervene in Guyana in 2021, and therefore the Themis demonstrator could be developed by 2023," said Jean-Yves Le Gall. "The Ariane rocket is one of the greatest technological, industrial and commercial successes in Europe and we must continue facing strong international competition , " adds André-Hubert Roussel. Hopefully, Europe could even catch up, secretly hope the two leaders.
« Last Edit: 02/23/2019 02:30 am by Lars-J »

Online topo334

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #1 on: 02/23/2019 02:35 am »
Well, the digital drumming was impressive

Online Coastal Ron

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #2 on: 02/23/2019 02:56 am »
I've been saying for a while that the race is on to build the LAST expendable launcher, and that only way that happens is if more and more previously expendable launch providers start developing reusable launchers.

So I'm quite happy about this development effort, assuming it progresses to an operational system. Not sure what it means to Ariane 6, but it was destined to have a short operational life regardless.

Who will be next to start development of a reusable launcher? I'm hoping it will be ULA, but I think it's a stretch...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline redliox

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #3 on: 02/23/2019 03:06 am »
I hoped Europe (obviously in this case Ariane) would get on the wagon.   8)
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
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Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #4 on: 02/23/2019 03:56 am »
It's good to see Europe pick up a racket and get in the game.

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #5 on: 02/23/2019 04:29 am »
It's good to see Europe pick up a racket and get in the game.
It's amazing what a little competition gets you to do.

Offline mupp

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #6 on: 02/23/2019 10:41 am »
It's good to see Europe pick up a racket and get in the game.
We're not the fastest kids in the game...but we can generally get going when we want to...

Offline gosnold

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #7 on: 02/23/2019 11:18 am »
Themis has been announced for some time now, the real news is that it will happen two years earlier than planned (2023 instead of 2025).

Here's a new video from Arianegroup on Themis:
https://www.ariane.group/fr/photo-video/arianegroup-and-cnes-launch-arianeworks-acceleration-platform/

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #8 on: 02/23/2019 12:18 pm »
AFAIK the news is the creation of ArianeWorks. They are preparing a Space2019+ program proposal.
Arianegroup: ArianeWorks acceleration platform
Edit to add: note that this is French only; CNES + Arianegroup (French).

Wasn't it Calapine who posted first about Themis, about a year back?
The footage shows three engines on Themis. Can propulsive landing work with that engine config. ?

Late edit: The engines are orientated in line, thus that can work. They use less engines on the demonstrator then on the real reusable first stage. But I still prefer a different means to prove stage reuse.
« Last Edit: 02/24/2019 09:42 am by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline Bynaus

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #9 on: 02/23/2019 12:41 pm »
Its about time! Better late than never.
More of my thoughts: www.final-frontier.ch (in German)

Offline Hauerg

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #10 on: 02/23/2019 01:04 pm »
Do not get it. 3 100t engines?
A Reusable methalox Falcon 3????

Offline Jarnis

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #11 on: 02/23/2019 04:22 pm »
So they will be tinkering with a small scale booster demonstrator around the time SpaceX flies by with a massive fully re-usable rocket?

Dinosaurs. Watching them go extinct will be interesting and sad.

 :'(

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #12 on: 02/25/2019 04:09 am »
Will Themis be pure ESA? JAXA's current work on RVT is supposedly informing the design of Callisto, which would feed into Themis. Is there an expectation that Themis will be pure ESA, or a joint desing with JAXA including splitting of work, or a joint dev but independent build (ESA+Arianespace, JAXA+MHI)?

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #13 on: 02/25/2019 04:31 am »
Do not get it. 3 100t engines?
A Reusable methalox Falcon 3????

I think you answered your own question.

Falcon 9 / 3....

16,000 kg / 3 ....

~ 5300 kg.

It is a Arianespace Soyuz replacement. Potentially Vega as well.
« Last Edit: 02/25/2019 04:32 am by ncb1397 »

Offline alexterrell

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #14 on: 02/25/2019 10:56 am »
So they will be tinkering with a small scale booster demonstrator around the time SpaceX flies by with a massive fully re-usable rocket?

Dinosaurs. Watching them go extinct will be interesting and sad.

 :'(
Talking of dinosaurs, it should be ready before SLS launches for the second time.

Offline Tywin

Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #15 on: 02/25/2019 03:31 pm »
Will Themis be pure ESA? JAXA's current work on RVT is supposedly informing the design of Callisto, which would feed into Themis. Is there an expectation that Themis will be pure ESA, or a joint desing with JAXA including splitting of work, or a joint dev but independent build (ESA+Arianespace, JAXA+MHI)?

That is a good question...I think we will see some kind of collaboration for a possible H4 JAXA and Ariane 7 ESA...
The knowledge is power...
Everything is connected...

Offline ZachF

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #16 on: 02/25/2019 05:24 pm »
Do not get it. 3 100t engines?
A Reusable methalox Falcon 3????

I think you answered your own question.

Falcon 9 / 3....

16,000 kg / 3 ....

~ 5300 kg.

It is a Arianespace Soyuz replacement. Potentially Vega as well.

The Arianespace soyuz replacement is the 6.2, however this could be the replacement of the replacement... The A6.2 is already uncompetitive.
artist, so take opinions expressed above with a well-rendered grain of salt...
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Offline ZachF

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #17 on: 02/25/2019 05:27 pm »
This is good, however, if I were Arianespace I'd go for a 7-9 engined version with 2 variants:

1. One with a solid upper stage to replace the Vega/Soyuz
2. One with a hydrolox vinci upper stage for GTO work.

I'd also pull it forward even sooner.
« Last Edit: 02/25/2019 05:28 pm by ZachF »
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #18 on: 02/25/2019 05:33 pm »
They need larger more capable US with higher DV due to lower staging velocity.

Online Lars-J

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Re: Themis - new reusable launcher (2023?)
« Reply #19 on: 02/26/2019 12:22 am »
This is good, however, if I were Arianespace I'd go for a 7-9 engined version with 2 variants:

1. One with a solid upper stage to replace the Vega/Soyuz
2. One with a hydrolox vinci upper stage for GTO work.

I'd also pull it forward even sooner.

Fortunately the concept seems flexible. If they can fit 3 engines in line, they can stretch the core and have room for 7 engines in there for a heavier lifter. (They have already shown concepts with 7 Prometheus engines clustered together)
« Last Edit: 02/26/2019 12:23 am by Lars-J »

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