Author Topic: Speculation: Korelev City  (Read 1393 times)

Offline rakaydos

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Speculation: Korelev City
« on: 02/08/2019 05:55 pm »
So, lets assume Starship is ready to send it's planned 2 cargo ships in 2024, with a ready followup in 2026. Lets say both will target a site with 100% known water availability, each bringing 120 tons of cargo, to begin ISRU testing before committing humans, and if all goes will, 2 crewed Starships with about 28 people will join them, along with an appropriate number of cargo sharships of base building equipment.

Lets assume that Korelev Crater is chosen.


What is the priority for the initial cargo ships? What kind of base building should the crewed ships do? What can we expect from the base after 10 years, or 20 years of growth?
« Last Edit: 02/08/2019 05:56 pm by rakaydos »

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #1 on: 02/08/2019 06:51 pm »
I came here from this thread.... Re: Super Heavy/Starship (BFR) timeline: development to Mars settlement
... snip ... other ppls comments ... snip ...
The surface ice is appealing but the big problem with this site is:
1. 73deg n lat - zero solar energy during the winter 73+25=97!
2. things like hellas planitae look lower in elevation, valles marinas is at 0deg lat and low
It's a HUGE question full of contrary requirements where SpaceX will land.

#1. Need on site readily accessible ice or hydrated soil for propellant ISRU.
#2. Strongly prefer -2Km below datum landing sites for aerobraking
#3. Need a site where solar power is available most hours per day without weeks of darkness or near darkness (Korolev)

rsdavies9's comment "1. 73deg n lat - zero solar energy during the winter 73+25=97" above STM makes a first colony at Koroiev effectively impossible.

The requirement for year-round power would require either:
1) significant Nuclear - which is not on the horizon for 2024. A couple of early Kilopower's are not enough, and are not ready... etc....
2) in-orbit mirrors or power beamed by laser etc from orbit. Currently well in the future and then experimental, and needing lots of untried/uninvented tec.
3) Superconducting or? transmission lines from lower latitude PV solar.... 1000's of miles!
4) Massive solar panels to electrolise H and O2 (in addition to ISRU fuel), as energy store for winter! Discussed elsewhere - what a lot of work! and therefore cost! 
5) Discover recoverable Martian methane, and combine it with 4)
6) Batteries to store enough power for months...  seriously!!! even the SS has limits!

Maybe in 50 or 20 years one of these solutions will be in place, and the water or produced gasses will be piped etc (train.. automatic giant rovers...) back to the main centre's of population at moderate latitudes. For now Korelev is too expensive, has too many additional risks, and is effectively impossible. QED
« Last Edit: 02/08/2019 06:52 pm by DistantTemple »
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline rakaydos

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #2 on: 02/08/2019 07:07 pm »
Curses... I made the topic after an earlier post in that thread, and with the thought that "korelev city" was a good name and worth discussion.

How much nuclear would we be talking, to justify a hypothetical? How viable would surplus naval reactors be as replacements, given easy access to water coolant?

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #3 on: 02/13/2019 09:21 am »
You could use wind power. But that'll only give you kilowatts. You'll still have all the other joys of Martian winter to contend with, including CO2 ice buildup.
SKYLON... The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's preferred surface-to-orbit conveyance.

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #4 on: 02/13/2019 09:53 am »
Quote
2) in-orbit mirrors or power beamed by laser etc from orbit. Currently well in the future and then experimental, and needing lots of untried/uninvented tec.

Aside from the technical elements, Musk really doesn't like the idea of space based solar. I believe the phrase he used was "burn it with fire".  That's on Earth though and it's not as if he hasn't changed his mind before.

Offline daedalus1

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #5 on: 02/13/2019 10:14 am »
You could use wind power. But that'll only give you kilowatts. You'll still have all the other joys of Martian winter to contend with, including CO2 ice buildup.

You've been watching too many films. Wind power is impossible, the force from 0.7% of earth's atmosphere would hardly move a feather.

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #6 on: 02/13/2019 03:21 pm »
Quote
2) in-orbit mirrors or power beamed by laser etc from orbit. Currently well in the future and then experimental, and needing lots of untried/uninvented tec.

Aside from the technical elements, Musk really doesn't like the idea of space based solar. I believe the phrase he used was "burn it with fire".  That's on Earth though and it's not as if he hasn't changed his mind before.
But in this situation where solar is not available for part of the year Musk's objection is moot. Despite the losses he derides you would still get "electrons on the ground", all the year round, and critically in the dark months. So listing it as a possible future option for this type of location is valid.
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #7 on: 02/13/2019 03:37 pm »
You could use wind power. But that'll only give you kilowatts. You'll still have all the other joys of Martian winter to contend with, including CO2 ice buildup.

You've been watching too many films. Wind power is impossible, the force from 0.7% of earth's atmosphere would hardly move a feather.
This is an over hasty response. (And my opinion some time back before I was reading NSF!) Apparently during dust storms the much higher speed of the Martian air, than earth's means wind turbines on Mars are not impossible. Even NASA did a study on it http://mragheb.com/NPRE%20475%20Wind%20Power%20Systems/Wind%20Power%20for%20a%20Mars%20Mission.pdf
However I agree not relevant to a early start at K crator/city. However such a large ice plateau may have adiabatic etc winds that are reliable and be of future interest.
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #8 on: 02/13/2019 03:40 pm »
You could use wind power. But that'll only give you kilowatts. You'll still have all the other joys of Martian winter to contend with, including CO2 ice buildup.
Yes instead of extracting CO2 from the thin air -- just bulldoze it off the ground! There is a bright side to most clouds!
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline Welsh Dragon

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #9 on: 02/16/2019 03:56 pm »
You could use wind power. But that'll only give you kilowatts. You'll still have all the other joys of Martian winter to contend with, including CO2 ice buildup.

You've been watching too many films. Wind power is impossible, the force from 0.7% of earth's atmosphere would hardly move a feather.
Might want to do some more reading before you mock others. Scott Manley has a good primer here:

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Speculation: Korelev City
« Reply #10 on: 03/29/2019 03:18 am »
rsdavies9's comment "1. 73deg n lat - zero solar energy during the winter 73+25=97" above STM makes a first colony at Koroiev effectively impossible.
Ah rats.. I got that wrong in an earlier post somewhere.. I thought it was just possible to get year round power.. by the subtle error of assuming 100 from equator to pole :)

Two possible saves.
(1) Wind power was mentioned. In particular I heard somewhere that there is a seasonal wind to and from the poles due to the freezing and subliming of CO2. The ridge that is ideal for solar power might also be ideal to catch such a wind, and it might come at exactly the right time to fill in our gap in solar power. Does anyone have any more information about that seasonal wind?

(2) One of the reasons that I like the idea of industry running under the ice is that the waste heat can form a body of liquid water at earth pressures. There are many uses of this and few downsides. Could this also act as a sort of geothermal energy storage mechanism? Could we exploit the heat differential between this body of liquid water and the martian surface during winter to create electricity?

Tags: BFR Starship ISRU water SpaceX