Author Topic: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission  (Read 64069 times)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #420 on: 04/12/2019 02:21 pm »
twitter.com/teamspaceil/status/1116707055333720066

Quote
Preliminary technical information collected by the teams shows that the first technical issue occurred at 14 km above the Moon. At 150 meters when the connection with #Beresheet was lost, it was moving at 500 km/h, making a collision inevitable. #IsraelToTheMoon #SpaceIL

https://twitter.com/teamspaceil/status/1116707056797589504

Quote
Our engineers think that a technical glitch in one of the components caused the main engine to shut down - making it impossible to slow the spacecraft’s descent. By the time the engine was restarted its velocity was too high to land properly. #Beresheet #SpaceIL #IsraelToTheMoon
« Last Edit: 04/12/2019 02:22 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Kansan52

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #421 on: 04/12/2019 02:47 pm »
Listened in to the landing attempt. That is a great team. It was sad to here the loss com, regain com, and reset system calls. Experience reported 'bad day' when hearing "lost communication".

Offline koraldon

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #422 on: 04/12/2019 04:10 pm »
Not sure who wrote the article on the main page, but it is incorrect in noting that the engine failed - it should be corrected.
Here is the press release from spaceil -

Israel to the moon! Preliminary data supplied by the engineering team of SpaceIL and IAI suggests a technical glitch in one of the components triggered the chain of events that caused the main engine of the spacecraft to stop. Without the main engine running it was impossible to stop Beresheet's velocity. Beresheet overcame the issue by restarting the engine. However, by that time, its velocity was too high to slow and the landing could not be completed as planned.
Prelimanry technical information collected by the teams shows that the first technical issue occurred at 14 km above the moon. At 150 meters from the ground, when the connection with the spacecraft was lost completely, the spacecraft was moving vertically at 500 km/h to the inevitable collision with the lunar surface.
Comprehensive tests will be held next week to gain better understanding of the events.

Also remarks from opher doron
Opher Doron, the general manager of the Space Division at Israel Aerospace Industries, said engineers were still studying the problem that led to the crash. Currently, they believed there had been a failure with one of the telemetry (altitude) measurement units, which caused a chain of events that ended up cutting the main engine about 10 kilometers (6 miles) above the moon’s surface. Without the main engine, the spacecraft could not properly brake in time to make a gentle landing, instead crashing onto the surface.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-beresheet-spacecraft-crashes-during-moon-landing-attempt/

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #423 on: 04/13/2019 02:17 am »
"the little lander was only included in some of the earlier missions (Rangers 3-5), none of which actually impacted the moon"

Ranger 4 did impact the Moon, on the far side.

Offline Rondaz

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #424 on: 04/13/2019 05:45 am »
Statement on Israel’s Beresheet Lunar Lander

Jim Bridenstine Posted on April 11, 2019

While NASA regrets the end of the SpaceIL mission without a successful lunar landing of the Beresheet lander, we congratulate SpaceIL, the Israel Aerospace Industries and the state of Israel on the incredible accomplishment of sending the first privately funded mission into lunar orbit. Every attempt to reach new milestones holds opportunities for us to learn, adjust and progress. I have no doubt that Israel and SpaceIL will continue to explore and I look forward to celebrating their future achievements.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/bridenstine/2019/04/11/statement-on-israels-beresheet-lunar-lander/

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #425 on: 04/13/2019 06:01 am »
Here's the list of first impact on the Lunar surface. I got these dates from Wikipedia, so buyer beware!

Launch       Impact
12 Sep 1959  13 Sep 1959  Luna 2 (USSR)
23 Apr 1962  26 Apr 1962  Ranger 4 (USA)
24 Jan 1990  10 Apr 1993  Hiten (Japan)
27 Sep 2003   3 Sep 2006  SMART 1 (ESA)
22 Oct 2008  14 Nov 2008  Moon Impact Probe (India)
24 Oct 2007   1 Mar 2009  Chang'e 1 (China)
22 Feb 2019  11 Apr 2019  Beresheet (Israel)
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Spaceil Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #426 on: 04/13/2019 07:03 am »
The truth is that they forget that Rangers 3, 4 and 5 were also intended to survive landings on the Moon and all three failed.
That's not how I remember it.  The Ranger spacecraft didn't have landing gear, landing motors, or anything required to actually make a soft landing.  They were crashed deliberately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_program

Those which were crashed deliberately were Rangers 6-9, after the programme was redirected towards sending back photos of the lunar surface during approach.   The original lander had a retrorocket and the spherical capsule was designed to survive the Moon landing - like Luna 9 et al.
« Last Edit: 04/13/2019 10:47 pm by Phillip Clark »
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Offline PM3

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #427 on: 04/13/2019 06:39 pm »
Sequel Beresheet 2.0 has been announced!

https://twitter.com/TeamSpaceIL/status/1117108316554125312

Quote from: Team SpaceIL
The dream goes on! Morris Kahn just announced the launching of Beresheet 2.0 #Beresheet2.0 #IsraeltotheMoon

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #428 on: 04/13/2019 06:42 pm »
Quick gleaning of news today - Leonard David reports LRO's LOLA laser will attempt to get a reflection from the ball-shaped reflector, if it survived the crash.

http://www.leonarddavid.com/did-nasa-experiment-survive-on-failed-israel-moon-lander/

No word yet on if any magnetometer results were transmitted.

Kahn will begin a Beresheet 2 mission right away.  Flight in 2 or 3 years.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/spaceil-chief-beresheet-2-starts-tomorrow-well-put-our-flag-on-the-moon/

 

Online meekGee

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Re: Spaceil Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #429 on: 04/13/2019 10:59 pm »
A consolation: They were the first private, and first Israeli, impactor to reach the moon and actually make an impact. Not the mission plan but it's an achievement nonetheless.

I'm just amazed at how much they accomplished for the budget they had.

Disclaimer:  I'm originally from there...

The main contractor was IAI, Israeli Aircraft Industries, that has built orbital rockets, spy satellites, fighter jets and complete missile systems, is a first-tier arms contractor and so honestly - I have no idea what they're even looking for in a place like X-Prize where they're competing against much much less experienced university-based groups.

http://www.iai.co.il/2013/22031-en/homepage.aspx

The net says they had $95M as a budget, but they also had informal access to IAI's arsenal of tools.  (And by arsenal, I do mean arsenal)

That it still glitched and crashed is honestly embarrassing, and the whole "we're a tiny country" drama is overplayed. Not that it's an easy task by any means, but this was no hobbyist shoestring effort.

Peace.
« Last Edit: 04/13/2019 11:03 pm by meekGee »
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Offline hop

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #430 on: 04/14/2019 01:05 am »
That it still glitched and crashed is honestly embarrassing, and the whole "we're a tiny country" drama is overplayed. Not that it's an easy task by any means, but this was no hobbyist shoestring effort.
I disagree about it being embarrassing. A ~$100M Lunar soft lander would be a very aggressive target from any established space agency or aerospace organization. It's hard to imagine any "western" / "1st world" organization doing it on that budget outside of a high risk mission with some corner cutting. The fact that they got so close on the first try is an impressive achievement. Yes, IAI is an established aerospace developer, but it's still a unique system well outsider their usual repertoire.

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #431 on: 04/14/2019 01:37 am »
That it still glitched and crashed is honestly embarrassing, and the whole "we're a tiny country" drama is overplayed. Not that it's an easy task by any means, but this was no hobbyist shoestring effort.
I disagree about it being embarrassing. A ~$100M Lunar soft lander would be a very aggressive target from any established space agency or aerospace organization. It's hard to imagine any "western" / "1st world" organization doing it on that budget outside of a high risk mission with some corner cutting. The fact that they got so close on the first try is an impressive achievement. Yes, IAI is an established aerospace developer, but it's still a unique system well outsider their usual repertoire.
I wonder how much of the following was "off the internal shelf":

Radhard electronics and system bus
IMU
Star/sun trackers
Comm
Propulsion

+A direct line to the PM to get any expertise they need.

Just saying.

IAI makes missiles that hit other missiles...  This was a malfunction, but nothing to do with budget or being a small country.

Kudos etc, but if I were some university-based X-prise team, I'd be feeling outplayed.

Also - shouldn't x-prize stuff be in commercial space?  This was not a science probe, it carried mostly national symbols and artifacts.

When India or China send a probe, they don't enter the X-prize. Keep the amateur league to amateurs.  (In the positive sense of the word)
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Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #432 on: 04/14/2019 01:53 am »
That it still glitched and crashed is honestly embarrassing, and the whole "we're a tiny country" drama is overplayed. Not that it's an easy task by any means, but this was no hobbyist shoestring effort.
I disagree about it being embarrassing. A ~$100M Lunar soft lander would be a very aggressive target from any established space agency or aerospace organization. It's hard to imagine any "western" / "1st world" organization doing it on that budget outside of a high risk mission with some corner cutting. The fact that they got so close on the first try is an impressive achievement. Yes, IAI is an established aerospace developer, but it's still a unique system well outsider their usual repertoire.
.. I actually think that's about on par with the Chinese lander/rover, and more expensive than the Indian Mars mission.
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Offline deruch

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #433 on: 04/14/2019 03:52 am »
None of IAI's experience is beyond Earth orbit, only up to GEO altitude.  If the mission had been DOA on release from the launcher or failed while still trying to raise apogee out of the region they had experience in and get to lunar orbit, I'd be more inclined to say that was an embarrassment for IAI.  Achieving lunar orbit and continuing to maneuver in orbit around the moon isn't embarrassing.
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Offline plutogno

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #434 on: 04/14/2019 06:34 am »
A ~$100M Lunar soft lander would be a very aggressive target from any established space agency or aerospace organization.

I am not completely sure. That budget after all was for a "naked" lander, with few if any instruments to talk about and no provision for surface thermal control.
Add a few meaningful instruments, a more thorough testing program, add some budget for data analysis, add a serious thermal control system and I guess you would get a total budget not unlike that of a space agency

Offline otter

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #435 on: 04/14/2019 06:49 am »
Kahn will begin a Beresheet 2 mission right away.  Flight in 2 or 3 years.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/spaceil-chief-beresheet-2-starts-tomorrow-well-put-our-flag-on-the-moon/

Godspeed.
The sooner they start a crowdfunding campaign, the more money they will collect on the wave of current Beresheet news.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #436 on: 04/14/2019 12:43 pm »
A ~$100M Lunar soft lander would be a very aggressive target from any established space agency or aerospace organization.

I am not completely sure. That budget after all was for a "naked" lander, with few if any instruments to talk about and no provision for surface thermal control.
Add a few meaningful instruments, a more thorough testing program, add some budget for data analysis, add a serious thermal control system and I guess you would get a total budget not unlike that of a space agency

Yeah. Chang'e 3/4 are clearly much more sophisticated landers and represent a higher level of effort and are therefore far more expensive. Somebody could do a simple comparison of them in terms of mass and lifetime.

Update: just looked it up:
Beresheet: 582 kg (fueled) / 150 kg (unfueled)
Chang'e 4: 3782 kg (fueled) / 1200 kg lander + 120 kg rover (unfueled)

I wouldn't argue that the cost scales exactly with the mass, but Chang'e 4 with the rover is almost 9 times the mass of Beresheet. Clearly it cost several times more than Beresheet.



Having gone to a number of American workshops on lunar landers and talked to people, I can see a small lander intended to last about 7-10 days on the lunar surface as being in the range of a couple of hundred million dollars, whereas if you want longer life and more capability, it will cost at least 2-3 times that much. So that's how I would equate the Israeli and Chinese landers.

Further update: here's an example of Lockheed Martin's proposed low-end lander. Gives you an idea of the capabilities.
« Last Edit: 04/15/2019 05:09 pm by Blackstar »

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #437 on: 04/14/2019 03:27 pm »
The carping about whether IAI is quasi government, whether there is embarassment to be had, etc. is indecourous. Word to the wise is enough I trust.
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Offline Bogeyman

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #438 on: 04/15/2019 06:20 am »
I wonder if LRO will take pics of Beresheet Crater?

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: SpaceIL Israeli Moon mission
« Reply #439 on: 04/15/2019 04:26 pm »
Yes, but it will be a couple of weeks before LRO flies over the site in daylight.

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