Author Topic: Big Falcon Hopper onwards - Starship Hopper, Starship, Super Heavy Render thread  (Read 940429 times)

Offline Soleil_Deimos

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So, given all the parts we have now, the Starship design should be something like this.

Edit: Also an orbital version with tps for fun
« Last Edit: 09/21/2019 10:17 pm by Soleil_Deimos »

Offline livingjw

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Nice. Pretty sure it needs a chine from the aft fins to the cannards and a root fairing around the fins.

John

Offline Rocket Surgeon

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Hmmm, I wonder if this mean those smaller fins we saw in August are going to be up top.
Probably a bit further down the side where they can attach a bit straighter.

Image from u/ModeHopper and bocachicagal.
« Last Edit: 09/22/2019 08:33 am by Rocket Surgeon »

Offline Lars-J

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Nice. Pretty sure it needs a chine from the aft fins to the cannards and a root fairing around the fins.

John

If by chine you mean a bulge that covers the “racetrack” equivalent piping and wires, sure. But I don’t expect it to stick out far nor have a sharp edge, which is usually a “chine” characteristic.


Offline livingjw

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Nice. Pretty sure it needs a chine from the aft fins to the cannards and a root fairing around the fins.

John

If by chine you mean a bulge that covers the “racetrack” equivalent piping and wires, sure. But I don’t expect it to stick out far nor have a sharp edge, which is usually a “chine” characteristic.

- I expect the shape of the fairing around the fins will be extended forward to the canards.

- It will add appreciable drag for reentry by adding to the width and deflecting flow outward. Probably will improve max L/D a little as well.

- A chine (or Leading Edge Extension) doesn't have to be sharp to do its job.

John

« Last Edit: 09/23/2019 12:42 am by livingjw »

Offline Lars-J

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The last picture is not of chines “proper”... just the main fin-to-body blended transition pieces for the windward sides, IMO. The are just two pieces laying next to each other.

But I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: 09/22/2019 05:44 pm by Lars-J »

Offline livingjw

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The last picture is not of chines... just the main fin-to-body transition pieces, IMO. The are just two pieces laying next to each other.

But I could be wrong.

You may be right, but I think they will extend this forward of the aft fins to form a chine with this or a similar shape. I believe this chine (possibly mythical) will blend into the aft section of the canards. We will see. Great fun! Place your bets.

John
« Last Edit: 09/22/2019 05:56 pm by livingjw »

Offline Rocket Science

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The last picture is not of chines “proper”... just the main fin-to-body blended transition pieces for the windward sides, IMO. The are just two pieces laying next to each other.

But I could be wrong.
In aerospace we call them wing root fairings...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Online lamontagne

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Well, if the forward fins are 10m long and the back one a bit more than 12, this might be a solution.

Offline livingjw

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- They are adding the chines. They appear smaller than the fin fairing cross section. Appear to stick out about .5 m.

- These chines will add more than 10%-20% increase in cross sectional drag and stabilize the flow around the cylinder.

- They are being attached to tabs welded to the fairing surface. Looks like they will have fasteners so that they may be removed for inspection and maintenance.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48895.msg1995233#msg1995233

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48895.msg1995333#msg1995333

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48895.msg1994606#msg1994606
sixth picture down shows fin fairings and chine


John
« Last Edit: 09/23/2019 01:34 am by livingjw »

Online meekGee

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The last picture is not of chines... just the main fin-to-body transition pieces, IMO. The are just two pieces laying next to each other.

But I could be wrong.

You may be right, but I think they will extend this forward of the aft fins to form a chine with this or a similar shape. I believe this chine (possibly mythical) will blend into the aft section of the canards. We will see. Great fun! Place your bets.

John
There's a possibility that at their flight regime, the flow detaches from the cylinder prior to the center-plane, so such features would not add a lot of drag.

I do like the idea though, it is very elegant, and I have no reason to think supersonic flow will behave in either of these ways.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Online lamontagne

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Header tanks moved to the front.
There will be some large and cold pipes through the cargo area!
Perhaps the nose will not be under pressure?
It may allow for a stiffening of the wings using the tank headers.  It always seemed like a soft spot, structurally.
« Last Edit: 09/23/2019 02:05 am by lamontagne »

Online lamontagne

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How long are these new versions expected to be? 58m? 60m?

Moved the front wings an extra 4m forwards.  Added an inner bulkhead.  Still seems to work.
« Last Edit: 09/23/2019 02:29 am by lamontagne »

Offline RotoSequence

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Header tanks moved to the front.
There will be some large and cold pipes through the cargo area!
Perhaps the nose will not be under pressure?
It may allow for a stiffening of the wings using the tank headers.  It always seemed like a soft spot, structurally.

We've seen on the Mark 1 that the header tanks and supporting avionics equipment fits into a smaller area, probably by placing the tanks next to each other rather than vertically. The fuel and oxidizer lines run through chines that are outside the vehicle, and will not impinge on the cargo volume.

Offline groknull

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Header tanks moved to the front.
There will be some large and cold pipes through the cargo area!
Perhaps the nose will not be under pressure?
It may allow for a stiffening of the wings using the tank headers.  It always seemed like a soft spot, structurally.

The (suspected) header tanks captured in various images have a large hole at one end.  That hole is off center.  This implies (to me) that the tanks will be mounted at an angle.  The two tanks might be mounted side-by side at an angle matching the tangent of the fuselage curve at that point.

I think they would be stacked dorsally / ventrally to leave lateral room for forward flap/fin actuators and structure.

Offline livingjw

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The last picture is not of chines... just the main fin-to-body transition pieces, IMO. The are just two pieces laying next to each other.

But I could be wrong.

You may be right, but I think they will extend this forward of the aft fins to form a chine with this or a similar shape. I believe this chine (possibly mythical) will blend into the aft section of the canards. We will see. Great fun! Place your bets.

John
There's a possibility that at their flight regime, the flow detaches from the cylinder prior to the center-plane, so such features would not add a lot of drag.

I do like the idea though, it is very elegant, and I have no reason to think supersonic flow will behave in either of these ways.

Google "hypersonic flow around a right cylinder". You will see that separation occurs well to the leeward side.

John

Online lamontagne

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Series and parallel.  Not much change/gain one way or the other.
As far as chines go, waiting to see them.  I'm still in the blended transition camp.  But it would be a great spot for the propellant lines.
« Last Edit: 09/23/2019 02:59 am by lamontagne »

Offline RotoSequence

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Series and parallel.  Not much change/gain one way or the other.
As far as chines go, waiting to see them.  I'm still in the blended transition camp.  But it would be a great spot for the propellant lines.

I suspect they'll be mounted at an unusual angle to fill the volume a little more tightly. I've made a hasty doodle in paint.net to illustrate the thought.

I think the front and rear moving surfaces may be linked by a fixed wing like the attached image.

It allow to :
- protect feed line/pipes
- increase significantly the reentry surface
- reduce aerodynamic impact of forward fins during liftoff

Offline RobLynn

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Showed up in a tweet on Elon's feed, unsure of provenance
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Which one? 1, 2 or 3? pic.twitter.com/jIEXVTQffa</p>&mdash; Pranay Pathole (@PPathole) 23 September 2019
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The glass is neither half full nor half empty, it's just twice as big as it needs to be.

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