Author Topic: Developing the BFS - Phase 1 Big Falcon Hopper (BFH) Discussion - THREAD 2  (Read 236674 times)

Offline WindyCity

Hopper comes apart. Bulkheads get welded into the lower tank section, forming two small tanks. Rocket stays apart to complete plumbing, engines, and fitting out misc. flight hardware and instrumentation.

Wouldn't they then have to protect it from the elements while they install its innards? A tent or something to shield it?

Offline KSHavre

  • KSHavre
  • Member
  • Posts: 37
  • Portland, OR
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 79
Austin Barnard reports a border guard said that the Hopper is coming apart again to get the tanks in. If that is true, then i doubt they welded strips over the seam. So someone is wrong here.

I think imagination is not just running wild here, but everywhere where people are following the construction of this huge shiny thing. :D

Awesome. That explains the last missing piece of the puzzle.  Hopper comes apart. Bulkheads get welded into the lower tank section, forming two small tanks. Rocket stays apart to complete plumbing, engines, and fitting out misc. flight hardware and instrumentation.  Rocket put back together. Finishing work is then completed.  Shock absorbers can be either before or after reassembly.

Two purposes then putting it together now a fit check & photo opportunity.

And, possibly, easier to move to the pad before it all goes back together?

Offline Rei

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 508
  • Iceland
  • Liked: 265
  • Likes Given: 103
Do we have any official graphics that give us a sense of how much taller the final Starship (e.g. all the extra propellant) will be?

Offline Rei

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 508
  • Iceland
  • Liked: 265
  • Likes Given: 103
Hopper comes apart. Bulkheads get welded into the lower tank section, forming two small tanks. Rocket stays apart to complete plumbing, engines, and fitting out misc. flight hardware and instrumentation.

Wouldn't they then have to protect it from the elements while they install its innards? A tent or something to shield it?

Possibly. Nobody here knows their construction plans.  Perhaps they'll just raise the top bulkhead first, weld it in place, and then do all further lifts from the underside, with the crane's cables coming through the centre of the top bulkhead.  They could then keep the internals weathertight just by putting a temporary cover over the hole.   But who knows?
« Last Edit: 01/11/2019 10:07 pm by Rei »

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3621
  • Boca Chica, Texas
  • Liked: 8548
  • Likes Given: 397
I keep hearing various estimates for size of 120-130 feet or so, but I'm pretty sure the peak of that tent is almost exactly 50 feet, and when I measure a long shot to eliminate perspective, I'm getting close to 150 feet for this beast, about 14' of it being legs.

We have one truly orthographic rendering of the StarHopper already, from SpaceX. If the fuselage diameter is 9m, then the total height of the ship is 39.55m or 129.76'.

Doing that way, I'm getting 5 x 22 ratio, so 130' sounds right.
 (Just realized that 5 x 22 is it's size in fathoms)
« Last Edit: 01/13/2019 04:16 am by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline tea monster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
  • Across the Universe
    • My ArtStation Portfolio
  • Liked: 358
  • Likes Given: 59
I got a side-on picture of the hopper and loaded it into Blender's viewport to compare with my 3D model that I made. I've adjusted the proportions of the model to exactly match that of the picture of the real StarHopper.

The width of the airframe of the model is exactly to scale at 9 meters wide, which is what Elon has stated the width of the hopper's airframe is.  As the height of the model matches the height of the rocket in the picture,we should be able to get the height of the model and be pretty sure that it matches the height of the real vehicle.

Blender reports that the height of the model is 40.6 meters, which comes out at 133.2 feet from tip to tail.

Offline Peter.Colin

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Belgium
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 64
Has anyone noticed that the three Raptors of the hopper are in-line with a fin, and at the dear moon presentation they where not?

Offline HVM

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • Finland
  • Liked: 201
  • Likes Given: 112
Has anyone noticed that the three Raptors of the hopper are in-line with a fin, and at the dear moon presentation they where not?

Moon-composite one had seven engines; all symmetrically placed compared to the fins, each fin had three engines in-line. Somebody skipped geometry classes?
« Last Edit: 01/12/2019 11:25 am by HVM »

Offline Peter.Colin

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Belgium
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 64
I said it wrong, sorry for the confusion  :-[   I meant: it seems that they where in line with a fin at dear moon, and now are not?

The engines seem to be equally far in this pic from the viewer, which means they are not in line of a fin,
and not according to your nice pic.

Edit: is see the render guys also noticed the difference
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47144.msg1899433#msg1899433




« Last Edit: 01/12/2019 02:31 pm by Peter.Colin »

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3621
  • Boca Chica, Texas
  • Liked: 8548
  • Likes Given: 397
 A little perspective. This is the first time I noticed a short water tank by the tent. It appeared overnight and I have no idea what it already had inside. I was also gone the 2nd half of December and they could have installed all kinds of things inside I never saw. Point being, that huge metal triangle where the upper part of the legs are attached doesn't look like it's going to allow anything big to be lowered in, and even the top dome would have to pretty much sit on top of the lower section unless that triangle comes out, which doesn't seem likely. Maybe if they raised the concrete base so they could take the weight off the legs or something.

 That was November 23. Seven weeks from that to this.
« Last Edit: 01/12/2019 03:19 pm by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline Llian Rhydderch

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Terran Anglosphere
  • Liked: 813
  • Likes Given: 6549
A little perspective. This is the first time I noticed a short water tank by the tent. It appeared overnight and I have no idea what it already had inside.
 That was November 23. Seven weeks from that to this.

Yeah, more of shipyard construction techniques than traditional aerospace manufacturing techniques!

I saw a bunch of photos on L2 that I thought were yours, capturing the concrete form building and concrete pumping into the forms, one of them with the "Caldwell" (water tank construction company) crew equipment and logo in it.  Perhaps a couple of those, with dates, ought to be added to the public side photo history of this very public facing and unusual rocket build process; for context and completeness.  The dates of those activities is obviously a part of the history of this important (and humongous) test rocket:  the BFWT.  ;)
Re arguments from authority on NSF:  "no one is exempt from error, and errors of authority are usually the worst kind.  Taking your word for things without question is no different than a bracket design not being tested because the designer was an old hand."
"You would actually save yourself time and effort if you were to use evidence and logic to make your points instead of wrapping yourself in the royal mantle of authority.  The approach only works on sheep, not inquisitive, intelligent people."

Offline JAFO

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 624
  • Liked: 266
  • Likes Given: 200
-thread drift-
WRT photographers being asked/told to move along by Space X security, I'm assuming you're on public land and not scaling fences, using drones, etc. My wife is a retired international photojournalist (one of the good ones) and often ran into that problem post 9/11 when a "spooky" aircraft would be parked in plain sight at a public airport, or even taking pictures of buildings in NYC and DC, and was occasionally threatened with arrest if she took a photo of the plane or building (how do you hide a building in downtown NYC?). I'm a card carrying Space Geek since the Gemini missions and I realize we all want to stay on the good side of Space X, but there are limits as to what they can ask you to do.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/photographers-rights
/thread drift

« Last Edit: 01/12/2019 03:48 pm by JAFO »
Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we play for keeps.
— Ernest K. Gann

Online MikeAtkinson

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1902
  • Bracknell, England
  • Liked: 669
  • Likes Given: 90
I saw an old tweet from Elon today, he must have been amused with the alternative reading:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1060282495541727234

Quote
No, we’re building a BFR dev ship to do supersonic through landing tests in Boca Chica, Texas

which could mean it is doing the tests in Boca Chica, or that it is being built in Boca Chica. Everyone seems to have assumed the first meaning.

Offline Restless

  • Member
  • Posts: 30
  • Wimberley, Texas
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 5
Austin Barnard reports a border guard said that the Hopper is coming apart again to get the tanks in. If that is true, then i doubt they welded strips over the seam. So someone is wrong here.

I think imagination is not just running wild here, but everywhere where people are following the construction of this huge shiny thing. :D

Awesome. That explains the last missing piece of the puzzle.  Hopper comes apart. Bulkheads get welded into the lower tank section, forming two small tanks. Rocket stays apart to complete plumbing, engines, and fitting out misc. flight hardware and instrumentation.  Rocket put back together. Finishing work is then completed.  Shock absorbers can be either before or after reassembly.

Ok, so Falcon 9's are assembled in climate-controlled ultra-clean buildings to assure reliability. So how is this hopper going to be finished out standing in the open in a marine environment during wet winter weather? Some possibilities are:

1. Rotate horizontal and place under an enclosed tent to finish out.
2. Prefabricate the Raptor propulsion unit complete with mini-fuel tanks, avionics, etc and insert up thru the tail. This would also require rotation to the horizontal.
3. Or what?   

Offline Joffan

  • NSF Irregular
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1420
  • Liked: 448
  • Likes Given: 1307
Austin Barnard reports a border guard said that the Hopper is coming apart again to get the tanks in. If that is true, then i doubt they welded strips over the seam. So someone is wrong here.

I think imagination is not just running wild here, but everywhere where people are following the construction of this huge shiny thing. :D

Awesome. That explains the last missing piece of the puzzle.  Hopper comes apart. Bulkheads get welded into the lower tank section, forming two small tanks. Rocket stays apart to complete plumbing, engines, and fitting out misc. flight hardware and instrumentation.  Rocket put back together. Finishing work is then completed.  Shock absorbers can be either before or after reassembly.

Ok, so Falcon 9's are assembled in climate-controlled ultra-clean buildings to assure reliability. So how is this hopper going to be finished out standing in the open in a marine environment during wet winter weather? Some possibilities are:

1. Rotate horizontal and place under an enclosed tent to finish out.
2. Prefabricate the Raptor propulsion unit complete with mini-fuel tanks, avionics, etc and insert up thru the tail. This would also require rotation to the horizontal.
3. Or what?   

My current thinking is that they will assemble innards in accordance with your #2, then put them on the concrete rotunda and lower the Hopper over them. And weld up.

There would also need to be a prior stage, possibly also a lift on/off the rotunda, where the existing fit-check innards are removed, which would be a chance to put in some structure higher up in the Hopper.
Max Q for humanity becoming spacefaring

Online Slarty1080

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
  • UK
  • Liked: 257
  • Likes Given: 99
Austin Barnard reports a border guard said that the Hopper is coming apart again to get the tanks in. If that is true, then i doubt they welded strips over the seam. So someone is wrong here.

I think imagination is not just running wild here, but everywhere where people are following the construction of this huge shiny thing. :D

Awesome. That explains the last missing piece of the puzzle.  Hopper comes apart. Bulkheads get welded into the lower tank section, forming two small tanks. Rocket stays apart to complete plumbing, engines, and fitting out misc. flight hardware and instrumentation.  Rocket put back together. Finishing work is then completed.  Shock absorbers can be either before or after reassembly.

Ok, so Falcon 9's are assembled in climate-controlled ultra-clean buildings to assure reliability. So how is this hopper going to be finished out standing in the open in a marine environment during wet winter weather? Some possibilities are:

1. Rotate horizontal and place under an enclosed tent to finish out.
2. Prefabricate the Raptor propulsion unit complete with mini-fuel tanks, avionics, etc and insert up thru the tail. This would also require rotation to the horizontal.
3. Or what?   
Or perhaps rockets don't need to be assembled in climate-controlled ultra-clean buildings to assure reliability.
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline adrianwyard

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 978
  • Liked: 196
  • Likes Given: 242
My $0.02: What we've seen built out in the open so far is primarily a mockup aeroshell that is representative of the outer-mold line of the Starship vehicle.

I suspect early Starship (Raptor) VTVL tests *could* have been done with no aeroshell at all, just stand-in tanks on a thrust structure. BUT if it's quick and easy - and it clearly was - it's much better to test flying with representative aerodynamics. After all wind will be a factor in the final vehicles control systems (those fins are sails).

And of course it looks cool and gets people talking = free publicity and good will.


Offline KSHavre

  • KSHavre
  • Member
  • Posts: 37
  • Portland, OR
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 79
1. Rotate horizontal and place under an enclosed tent to finish out.
2. Prefabricate the Raptor propulsion unit complete with mini-fuel tanks, avionics, etc and insert up thru the tail. This would also require rotation to the horizontal.
3. Or what?   

I recall a SpaceX member saying that F9 engines/assemblies are easier to work on (repairs at Vandy?) when vertical rather than horizontal. SpaceX might be designing assemblies that take advantage of that learning and simply build the vehicle that way; rotation would not be required for #2.

EDIT: My take on #2:

A. Prefabricate and wrap the Raptor propulsion unit in hepta/septa web and avionics assemblies
B. Move the sub-assemblies into the WT base, and put the StarHopper bottom 1/3 back onto the base (the fuel tanks are already being assembled inside).
C. Seal and clean the 'room' inside concrete base.
D. Remove he wrapping and assemble the parts/pieces.
E. Lift and move the StarHopper bottom 1/3 (tanks with propulsion unit assembled) to the Pad.
F. Move the top 2/3 to the pad, and StarHopper final assembly.
G. Hop!
« Last Edit: 01/12/2019 06:34 pm by KSHavre »

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3621
  • Boca Chica, Texas
  • Liked: 8548
  • Likes Given: 397
 Why would the suppository method require horizontal rotation? Everything about that would be more difficult than vertical. If they need a climate controlled place to finish things up, once the upper dome is on they can just put the section back over the concrete base and skirt off the gap. As for middle or bottom bulkheads, which may or may not already be there, lifting the whole section onto them might sound like a joke, but it's 30 minutes with a crane.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5246
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 2508
  • Likes Given: 1
1. Rotate horizontal and place under an enclosed tent to finish out.
2. Prefabricate the Raptor propulsion unit complete with mini-fuel tanks, avionics, etc and insert up thru the tail. This would also require rotation to the horizontal.
3. Or what?   

I recall a SpaceX member saying that F9 engines/assemblies are easier to work on (repairs at Vandy?) when vertical rather than horizontal. SpaceX might be designing assemblies that take advantage of that learning and simply build the vehicle that way; rotation would not be required for #2.

Yup. How would you rotate Starship to do repairs on Mars? You likely wouldn't, but may well design it for vertical repairs.
« Last Edit: 01/12/2019 06:35 pm by docmordrid »
DM

Tags: