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JHUAPL Interstellar probe study (2019)
by
AegeanBlue
on 21 Nov, 2018 21:36
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I did not find a relevant thread so I am starting one here. I think it belongs more here than at Advanced Concepts, because the study tries no to be one. As part of the studies for the next Heliophysics Decadal Survey JHUAPL is studying a probe to get to 1,000 AU within 50 years. I became aware of the effort through a FISO telecon, which slides I have attached. The probe will weight 300-800 kg of which 40 kg will be instruments. By comparison New Horizons is a 478 kg with 30.4 kg of instruments, Parker Solar Probe 685 kg with 50 kg of instruments, while Pioneer 10/11 and Ulysses were lighter. The current mission plan is for an SLS launch to Jupiter, reverse gravity assist to reduce speed, plunge into the Sun at 4 solar radii (Parker Solar Probe will reach 8 solar radii) and use an Oberth maneuver to achieve 8 AU per year or twice the heliospheric escape speed of Voyager 1. Since they will be in the area, they are also proposing that a Kuiper Belt target is also target for a fast flyby.
For the Oberth maneuver this requires a solid stage with at least twice the power of STAR 48. Now there are first stage solid boosters out there much stronger than the STAR 48, but whether they can survive several years of the cold in space and the heat at 4 solar radii, I do not know. The FISO telecon mentions that there will be a follow up at a session at the Fall AGU and a final report will be submitted to the NASA director in February 2019 to decide if to proceed to Phase II.
AGU already has its sessions up. One relevant session is SH33C: The Interstellar Probe Mission: Study Findings and Next Steps Posters, available at
https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm18/prelim.cgi/Session/48708There is also session SH029, which has its abstracts up here:
https://fallmeeting.agu.org/2018/pio-abstract-search/?proposed_session_abbreviation=SH029&l=%252F2018%252Fpio-abstract-search%252F&abstract_search=1&simian_search=1&abstract_search_paged=1I am hoping that someone takes notes about what is told at that session and gives us the gist. Also it would be nice if anyone has more information to share about the project. I remember Voyager scientists mentioning how Heliophysics proposes such a mission on a regular basis but it gets shot down due to technological immaturity. From what I can tell, after the recent launch of Parker Solar Probe and the upcoming launch of ESA's Solar Orbiter to which NASA is contributing instruments, NASA heliophysics no longer has a flagship mission.
Please do NOT start discussing the merits of various launchers. This is a circa 2030 launch date mission, and we have had this discussion here ad nauseam.
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#1
by
Hobbes-22
on 22 Nov, 2018 14:17
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#2
by
Eric Hedman
on 22 Nov, 2018 20:07
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It looks like we are in no danger of running out of creative ideas for exploring space. THat's one reason I find it so fascinating. Even though many of us won't be around if and when this gets out to 1,000 AU, this idea is worth looking into. The coming generations of space enthusiasts will have even more new discovers to witness.
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#3
by
RotoSequence
on 22 Nov, 2018 20:22
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Seems like a good opportunity for an Oumuamua flyby, too.
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#4
by
russianhalo117
on 22 Nov, 2018 23:39
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I did not find a relevant thread so I am starting one here. I think it belongs more here than at Advanced Concepts, because the study tries no to be one. As part of the studies for the next Heliophysics Decadal Survey JHUAPL is studying a probe to get to 1,000 AU within 50 years. I became aware of the effort through a FISO telecon, which slides I have attached. The probe will weight 300-800 kg of which 40 kg will be instruments. By comparison New Horizons is a 478 kg with 30.4 kg of instruments, Parker Solar Probe 685 kg with 50 kg of instruments, while Pioneer 10/11 and Ulysses were lighter. The current mission plan is for an SLS launch to Jupiter, reverse gravity assist to reduce speed, plunge into the Sun at 4 solar radii (Parker Solar Probe will reach 8 solar radii) and use an Oberth maneuver to achieve 8 AU per year or twice the heliospheric escape speed of Voyager 1. Since they will be in the area, they are also proposing that a Kuiper Belt target is also target for a fast flyby.
For the Oberth maneuver this requires a solid stage with at least twice the power of STAR 48. Now there are first stage solid boosters out there much stronger than the STAR 48, but whether they can survive several years of the cold in space and the heat at 4 solar radii, I do not know. The FISO telecon mentions that there will be a follow up at a session at the Fall AGU and a final report will be submitted to the NASA director in February 2019 to decide if to proceed to Phase II.
AGU already has its sessions up. One relevant session is SH33C: The Interstellar Probe Mission: Study Findings and Next Steps Posters, available at https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm18/prelim.cgi/Session/48708
There is also session SH029, which has its abstracts up here: https://fallmeeting.agu.org/2018/pio-abstract-search/?proposed_session_abbreviation=SH029&l=%252F2018%252Fpio-abstract-search%252F&abstract_search=1&simian_search=1&abstract_search_paged=1
I am hoping that someone takes notes about what is told at that session and gives us the gist. Also it would be nice if anyone has more information to share about the project. I remember Voyager scientists mentioning how Heliophysics proposes such a mission on a regular basis but it gets shot down due to technological immaturity. From what I can tell, after the recent launch of Parker Solar Probe and the upcoming launch of ESA's Solar Orbiter to which NASA is contributing instruments, NASA heliophysics no longer has a flagship mission.
Please do NOT start discussing the merits of various launchers. This is a circa 2030 launch date mission, and we have had this discussion here ad nauseam.
A newish STAR-92 series kick stage or larger would do the trick id think.
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#5
by
theinternetftw
on 23 Nov, 2018 00:10
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A newish STAR-92 series kick stage or larger would do the trick id think.
From the
June 2018 NGIS product catalog [PDF]:
The STAR 92 is a derivative of our successful STAR and CASTOR series of motors. It incorporates the motor heritage of both systems and can be used in either a third-stage or an upper-stage application. This design progressed to the point at which a preliminary design review (PDR) was held.
This page of information is untouched from the
2008 ATK product catalog.So if this is accurate, it needs to be dusted off and given a bit of work.
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#6
by
AegeanBlue
on 24 Nov, 2018 05:39
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I did not know about the STAR 92. Getting NASA to pay for its development would be a major coup for NGIS. Of course 30-95 F will not cut it in this case, so would that mean that it could go in a pressurized vessel Soviet style until it is time to use it? I think not.
All information about this proposal is welcome. Is this just a paper study, to be shelved, or is it a real effort this time? Does heliophysics have another large and less risky priority? Reading this forum you get a sense of how planetary science and astrophysics work. Earth science and heliophysics @ NASA, not so much
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#7
by
theinternetftw
on 24 Nov, 2018 09:18
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I did not know about the STAR 92. Getting NASA to pay for its development would be a major coup for NGIS. Of course 30-95 F will not cut it in this case
The mass is the bigger problem. I was caught up in finding the thing and missed that minor detail. 37,000 lbs that you have to deliver to the sun.
As McFly would say, "This is heavy."
Having now actually had time to look through the entire STAR catalog, it looks something the size of the STAR 63F would be what you would want thrust-wise. But it also looks like the only STARs that have been designed for long-term space thermal loads are the Mars Pathfinder / MER deceleration motors, and those things are tiny.
So the idea I suppose would be to make a STAR 63F sized booster that is rated for cruise like a MER decelerator, then have the rest be up to the Parker-derived TPS seen in the slide deck.
Now all you have to do is throw 5 tons at the sun. Which is about seven times more than Parker. And you have to get twice as close.
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#8
by
Blackstar
on 24 Nov, 2018 12:08
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All information about this proposal is welcome. Is this just a paper study, to be shelved, or is it a real effort this time? Does heliophysics have another large and less risky priority? Reading this forum you get a sense of how planetary science and astrophysics work. Earth science and heliophysics @ NASA, not so much
This is a study that will feed into the next heliophysics decadal survey. Astrophysics has been funding four studies of major telescope projects that will feed into Astro 2020, which is starting up now. Helio will start up in a few years, and they are funding this study, and probably several other large ones. So yeah, it's still at the paper stage, meaning not approved for development. And it won't be approved for development until after the decadal survey says that it should be, and NASA gins up the money for it.
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#9
by
K-P
on 24 Nov, 2018 19:08
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Seems like a good opportunity for an Oumuamua flyby, too.
As this will still be on a powerpoint-stage if and when Planet 9 is found, I'd rather morph it into Planet 9 flyby mission than start a separate project for it.
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#10
by
hektor
on 24 Nov, 2018 20:16
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Pick your favorite Transneptunian.
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#11
by
K-P
on 25 Nov, 2018 19:08
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Pick your favorite Transneptunian.
Voyager 1.
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#12
by
AegeanBlue
on 28 Nov, 2018 05:54
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#13
by
Blackstar
on 14 Dec, 2018 16:51
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#14
by
AegeanBlue
on 14 Dec, 2018 22:27
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Thank you Blackstar. Was there any discussion in the session?
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#15
by
AegeanBlue
on 14 Dec, 2018 22:51
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#16
by
vjkane
on 15 Dec, 2018 15:32
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It appears that for the early studies, the team is using the New Horizons design as its strawman. I presume that a real design would include multiple RTGs -- Pu-238 has a half life of 87.74 years; the nominal 50 year mission is a significant fraction of that.
From presentations that I've read, the driving factor in loss of power for current missions is the degradation of the thermo- electric couples. The eMMRTG development program would use a new design for the couples that at the end of a nominal 14 year mission increases power by 50%. A 50 year mission might want to further address this issue.
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#17
by
Blackstar
on 09 Jan, 2019 14:49
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#18
by
K-P
on 09 Jan, 2019 15:23
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Besides politics, why use single launch SLS as a baseline launcher? (per slides)
How about launching cruise stages/modules separately (with cheaper yet capable launchers) and dock them autonomously in Earth orbit before departure? Could be less expensive yet more capable mission?
Why it seems docking and multiple launch scenarios are limited only to human missions planning...?
And while we go down this road, why not create a fleet of similar mini probes (economy of volumes) and launch them together and let them take their unique trajectories to various KBO targets only at the point of JGA? We have plenty of examples of having great "1-2 punches" of succesful probe twins in solar system exploration.
edit: removed alternative launcher names to avoid too obvious amazing peopleism...
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#19
by
Blackstar
on 09 Jan, 2019 17:57
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