Author Topic: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings  (Read 339417 times)

Offline Tomness

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #460 on: 06/30/2022 06:43 pm »
SpaceX Urges Starlink Users to Petition FCC in Spectrum Battle With Dish

Quote from: pcmag.com
SpaceX is escalating a regulatory battle against Dish Network for rights over the 12GHz band by calling on Starlink subscribers to petition the FCC in the company’s favor.

On Tuesday, SpaceX sent out a message to US-based Starlink customers, asking them to sign a petition(Opens in a new window), which is designed to be sent to both the FCC and US lawmakers. 

“Today we ask for your support in ending a lobbying campaign that threatens to make Starlink unusable for you and the vast majority of our American customers,” SpaceX wrote in the message, according(Opens in a new window) to Starlink users on Reddit and Facebook.

Just filled out the petition my self, pretty seamless and they send email to your US Rep, US Senator, and FCC Chair. hopefully they will have time to review it and stop Charlie from having his day.

Offline gongora

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Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #462 on: 07/03/2022 03:46 am »
Latest semi-annual report: https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=16644318

Notable:

Quote
Thirty-Eight SpaceX Satellites Reentered from the Launch on February 3, 2022—On February 3, 2022, SpaceX launched 49 satellites into an orbit with a perigee of approximately 210 km. Every satellite achieved controlled flight, but due to a geomagnetic storm, the satellites experienced an increased atmospheric drag approximately 50% higher than all previous launches. As a result, while SpaceX was able to command 11 of the satellites to a drag-stable attitude sufficient to ride out the storm, the other 38 satellites reentered the Earth’s atmosphere and demised.1 Since this event, SpaceX has updated the flight software of our satellites to accommodate similar space weather events in the future and is working toward a solution whereby satellites will include an independent position “beacon” to improve ground antenna pointing.

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #463 on: 07/03/2022 03:53 am »
Latest Gen2 filing, counter attack against Viasat: https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=16629529

Maybe it's me, but the following argument is new and kind of menacing, I wonder if this is related to recent supreme court ruling regarding EPA.

Quote
I. THE COMMISSION’S AUTHORITY OVER SPACE SAFETY IS UNTESTED

As an initial matter, succumbing to Viasat’s repeated efforts to have the Commission arbitrarily and capriciously treat a single U.S.-licensed operator differently than all others jeopardizes the Commission’s authority over space sustainability, which has an uncertain legislative nexus and has never been tested in court. When first asserting its authority over orbital debris, the Commission argued that orbital debris mitigation is within its scope of authority because “satellite communications are an important component of the national and world-wide radio communications infrastructure” and orbital debris can negatively affect new satellite systems, service delivery, or the safety of manned space flight and people and property on the ground.3 In 2020, the Commission then interpreted this authority to cover space traffic management and space situational awareness on the basis that they “are directly tied to the mitigation of orbital debris,” which in turn, it claimed, was related to its authority to license spectrum in the public interest.4

As the Supreme Court has recognized, though afforded wide latitude in its supervision over communication by wire and radio, “the Commission was not delegated unrestrained authority,”5 and the public-interest standard “is not to be interpreted as setting up a standard so indefinite as to confer an unlimited power.”6 Rather, the Commission is required to evaluate license applications taking cognizance of matters within the Commission’s expertise as envisioned by Congress. Indeed, contrary to Viasat’s shotgun approach and meandering claims, Commission action “would be arbitrary and capricious if the agency has relied on factors which Congress has not intended it to consider.”7

In no other area does the Commission follow Viasat’s view that the Commission’s authority over the airwaves gives it limitless jurisdiction to the operations of the vehicle on which an antenna resides. The Commission has not claimed jurisdiction to tell broadcasters how to drive TV news vans, or firefighters how to drive their trucks, or tower climbers—once the most dangerous job in America—the safest way to climb the tower. And Congress has never indicated that it intends for the Commission to extend its jurisdiction in this way over satellites, having never appropriated funds for the Commission to hire aerospace engineers or other similar technical experts. In fact, the Commission has always deferred to agencies such as NASA, NOAA, the Department of Defense, and the Department of Commerce on such issues, while limiting its role to disclosure requirements.8

Nevertheless, in its letter, Viasat encourages the Commission to test its authority over orbital debris mitigation by imposing on a single operator new, unfounded substantive requirements that directly contradict expert recommendations and the most recent Commission order on the matter. For example, Viasat would have the Commission flout its existing rules and NASA best practices to impose a recently rejected aggregate collision risk metric while eviscerating the long-standing “zero risk” assumption for maneuverable satellites to reach Viasat’s preferred anti-competitive result. The Commission should ignore Viasat’s misguided invitation to stretch the public interest standard past the breaking point, which would put the Commission’s authority over space sustainability at risk.
« Last Edit: 07/03/2022 03:54 am by su27k »

Offline Reynold

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #464 on: 07/03/2022 11:40 pm »
From reading your excerpt, I suspect it is indeed related to the recent ruling on the EPA, as the current Supreme Court does seem suspicious of the ability of federal regulatory agencies to expand their regulatory coverage far beyond anything written into statute.  If Congress wants a major new thing regulated, they are supposed to actually write legislation about the regulations and the agency doing the regulating, Supreme Courts before this one agreed with that general concept as well, but agencies have been pushing the boundary for quite a while now. 

Offline gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #465 on: 07/26/2022 01:46 am »
SAT-MOD-20220725-00074
This filing asks to add two small frequency blocks at 2000-2020MHz and 2180-2200MHz for MSS service.  The payload would be added to the Starlink Gen1 sats.  The ITU filings haven't been submitted yet.  Also Musk's current ownership stake is shown as 42.3% (but he controls well over half of the shares for voting purposes).

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #466 on: 07/26/2022 03:07 pm »
SAT-MOD-20220725-00074
This filing asks to add two small frequency blocks at 2000-2020MHz and 2180-2200MHz for MSS service.  The payload would be added to the Starlink Gen1 sats.  The ITU filings haven't been submitted yet.  Also Musk's current ownership stake is shown as 42.3% (but he controls well over half of the shares for voting purposes).

Very interesting.  I expected them to add L-band service to the Gen2 sats, but this is a different direction.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #467 on: 07/26/2022 03:21 pm »
SAT-MOD-20220725-00074
This filing asks to add two small frequency blocks at 2000-2020MHz and 2180-2200MHz for MSS service.  The payload would be added to the Starlink Gen1 sats.  The ITU filings haven't been submitted yet.  Also Musk's current ownership stake is shown as 42.3% (but he controls well over half of the shares for voting purposes).

Very interesting.  I expected them to add L-band service to the Gen2 sats, but this is a different direction.
The satellites hardware is fully capable. The satellites are software defined so it's just a software update to patch in the new code onboard.

Offline jimvela

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #468 on: 07/26/2022 03:35 pm »
SAT-MOD-20220725-00074
This filing asks to add two small frequency blocks at 2000-2020MHz and 2180-2200MHz for MSS service.  The payload would be added to the Starlink Gen1 sats.  The ITU filings haven't been submitted yet.  Also Musk's current ownership stake is shown as 42.3% (but he controls well over half of the shares for voting purposes).

Very interesting.  I expected them to add L-band service to the Gen2 sats, but this is a different direction.
The satellites hardware is fully capable. The satellites are software defined so it's just a software update to patch in the new code onboard.

Are you saying that the Gen 1.5 radios and antennas already have L-band capability?

SDR doesn't mean that the other RF subsystem components  (e.g. filters, amplifiers, antennas or beam formers, etc. ) support a whole new frequency set. 

It wouldn't be terribly surprising to me if they had cut in production and deployment of hardware that has support for a new band at some point along the way, but it would have to be something like that.  Usually the filters in particular would not pass bands that are not approved for use.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #469 on: 07/26/2022 06:14 pm »
SAT-MOD-20220725-00074
This filing asks to add two small frequency blocks at 2000-2020MHz and 2180-2200MHz for MSS service.  The payload would be added to the Starlink Gen1 sats.  The ITU filings haven't been submitted yet.  Also Musk's current ownership stake is shown as 42.3% (but he controls well over half of the shares for voting purposes).
Very interesting.  I expected them to add L-band service to the Gen2 sats, but this is a different direction.
The satellites hardware is fully capable. The satellites are software defined so it's just a software update to patch in the new code onboard.
Are you saying that the Gen 1.5 radios and antennas already have L-band capability?
SDR doesn't mean that the other RF subsystem components  (e.g. filters, amplifiers, antennas or beam formers, etc. ) support a whole new frequency set. 
It wouldn't be terribly surprising to me if they had cut in production and deployment of hardware that has support for a new band at some point along the way, but it would have to be something like that.  Usually the filters in particular would not pass bands that are not approved for use.
  It's a separate package they're asking for permission to use in conjunction with the Swarm system.
 For some reason trying to link to the pdf is giving me grief. It's the technical attachment in Gongora's link.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/attachment_menu.hts?id_app_num=142948&acct=599269&id_form_num=15&filing_key=-483229

« Last Edit: 07/26/2022 06:16 pm by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #470 on: 07/26/2022 06:17 pm »
To be clear in case it's not obvious, SpaceX contemplates using phased array antennas in the 2 GHz band user terminals, while Swarm currently uses omnidirectional antennas in the L-band user terminals.
« Last Edit: 07/26/2022 06:19 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline daavery

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #471 on: 07/26/2022 06:33 pm »
really has nothing to do with swarm. It's a direct shot across the bow of Dish and their attempt to reuse MSS frequencies as terrestrial 5G.  basically Spacex is applying to re-use the existing Dish channels that Dish has not activated commercially even though Dish launched 2 birds 10 years ago. those 2 satellites are getting near their end of life and Spacex is proposing to use upcoming launches to orbit a MSS system on the Starlink constellation. So now everyone can clickbait the upcoming Spacex SatPhone :)

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #472 on: 07/26/2022 06:53 pm »
My guess is that SpaceX actually wants to bring the frequency into use and this is not merely a shot across Dish's bow.

It relates to Swarm loosely in that the company was frequency scavenging.  20 Mhz down + 20 Mhz up is a nice chunk of frequency, but still basically frequency scavenging compared to Starlink.  And besides, the Swarm folks were acquihired by SpaceX, are now part of the Starlink team, and may well be running Starlink one day.

Lastly, this frequency isn't suitable for phone service because it's not omnidirectional.  SpaceX says that they will use phased array antennas on the user end in order not to interfere with Dish's GEO-sats.
« Last Edit: 07/26/2022 07:05 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline Reynold

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #473 on: 07/27/2022 09:27 pm »
Lastly, this frequency isn't suitable for phone service because it's not omnidirectional.  SpaceX says that they will use phased array antennas on the user end in order not to interfere with Dish's GEO-sats.

SpaceX will have to be building their own phones, then, phased array is not in consumer phones. 

Offline BT52

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #474 on: 07/28/2022 01:03 am »
Is that even possible to have phase array phone? As far i understant fundamentals of good signal for Ku band needs high area.

Anyway IDK why would u need that. On commercial market at least. So on sea or in air u just use common sat dish and this as acces point.

For land we have cellular and market is not really crossing over with one Starlink are solving.

Offline groundbound

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #475 on: 07/28/2022 04:49 am »
Is that even possible to have phase array phone? As far i understant fundamentals of good signal for Ku band needs high area.


The historic trend is for smartphones to get larger and communication frequencies to get higher. Make the mistake of doing a linear extrapolation of both and sooner or later it becomes feasible....  :)


Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #476 on: 07/28/2022 05:04 am »
I see this as an attempt to go after Iridium/Globalstar's market, not a big market by any means, but a good demonstration of the hosted payload capability of Starlink to open new market.

The timing is interesting though. They're what, a year out from completing Gen1? Seems to me FCC may take nearly as long to approve this request, so either they intend to start carrying this new payload now, at the risk that FCC doesn't approve it and they waste some payload capability; or they plan to keep launching more Gen1 after it's completed (replacing old v1.0 with v1.5?).

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #477 on: 08/05/2022 02:24 am »
FCC Looks at Freeing Up More Spectrum for Starlink to Improve Downloads

Quote from: pcmag.com
The next regulatory battle facing SpaceX’s Starlink may involve the 17GHz radio band, which the FCC is considering opening up to low-Earth orbiting satellite internet providers.

The FCC today updated(Opens in a new window) its rules to permit higher-orbiting geostationary satellites to use the 17GHz band for downlinking purposes. This means they can share the spectrum with existing TV broadcasting satellite services to beam data to the Earth, including for internet access.

The change promises to supply “additional downlink capacity for high-throughput satellite communications,” according to the FCC. Now the US regulator is considering expanding the 17GHz access to non-geostationary (NGSO) satellite services, including SpaceX’s Starlink and Amazon’s upcoming Project Kuiper. 

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #478 on: 08/20/2022 02:18 pm »
New Gen2 filing: https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=16832647

Interesting tidbits:
1. Gen2 collision probability calculation used a satellite size that is larger than the actual Gen2 satellite just to be safe: mass 2,000kg, area 294 square meters
2. Some Gen2 satellite will carry a beacon for emergency communication during orbit raise, and this beacon is a hosted payload with frequency authorized by Germany, its use will be outside US.

But the biggest bombshell is SpaceX will use both F9 and Starship to launch Gen2, and it sounds like the Gen2 launched on F9 will be smaller:

Quote
As another example, SpaceX is proud to inform the Commission that it has decided to further accelerate its already record-breaking deployment schedule for its Gen2 system by using both its new Starship vehicle as well as its tested and dependable Falcon 9. While SpaceX will use technically identical satellites on both rockets, the physical structures will be tailored to meet the physical dimensions of the rockets on which they will be launched. In no event will any satellite exceed the overly conservative DAS analysis SpaceX provided to the Commission. To be clear, while SpaceX plans to accelerate deployment by using both of the rockets in its fleet, it remains committed to deploying all of its satellites—whether from Starship or from Falcon 9—into orbits described in Configuration 1 as described in its Amendment from August 2021 and confirmed in its letter to the Commission in January of this year. Specifically, SpaceX plans to launch satellites for its Gen2 constellation beginning with its three 500-kilometer shells, followed by satellites in its lower-altitude shells. The result will be that more Americans will receive high-quality broadband faster.


Offline AmigaClone

Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #479 on: 08/21/2022 01:25 am »
But the biggest bombshell is SpaceX will use both F9 and Starship to launch Gen2, and it sounds like the Gen2 launched on F9 will be smaller:

I agree with you that the Gen2 launched by F9 being less massive, besides being shaped differently.

SpaceX would need to launch roughly 280 (±20) Starships within 6 years of the constellation being approved to get to the halfway point. A similar number would need to be launched in three additional years to complete the Gen2 constellation. Having F9s replace some of those launches should help, even if it would take 2-5 F9 launches to send up the same number of Gen2 satellites as a Starship.

For now, SpaceX is insisting Gen1 and Gen2 Ka and Ku Starlink constellations be treated as separate entities. I can see that changing once Gen2 is fully deployed.

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