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#160
by
Asteroza
on 24 Mar, 2020 06:19
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What is the future of inflatable habitats? Is it possible that anyone else is going to acquire the patents and technology from Bigelow and continue investing in this area? The status of the patents is unclear but maybe some of the tech might be worth something.
With dragon, starliner and maybe starship coming up it seems like the prospect of commercial space stations is closer than ever and inflatables are the most efficient way to create provide habitable volume. So any company with expertise in this area has excellent opportunities.
Sierra Nevada Corp looks be working on inflatables and could get this IP & tech for cheap. Let the past die, kill it if you have to. It's the only way you can be what your meant to be.
I was under the impression that a lot of the core IP was from TransHab work NASA did, and was licensed from NASA?
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#161
by
DistantTemple
on 24 Mar, 2020 14:41
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It seems a real real shame if Bigelow fails. To have put in so much money, passion, and to have launched several times, with success especially the BEAM module. On the face of it NASA seems to have dragged their feet, and not found a way to buy modules from Bigelow.
Engineers finding they are designing a dream, that is being forgotten, and no-one is buying, whilst they invest years of their lives probably move on!
The one company that is most likely to need habitats of any kind in the near future, is SpaceX. Why have they shown such disinterest in Bigelow? Maybe SX thought it was such a critical path technology that they'd rather have it in-house. Therefore let it die and pick up all the IP and knowledgeable staff when it fails.
That's my prediction. SX will actively recruit all these laid off Bigelow workers, who will relish an exciting job at SX rather than the risk of B maybe coming back to life. Then they will buy the remains of the company, or otherwise get the IP from NASA etc.
So this is all a guess. No sources, so don't ask for references on "disinterest" etc.
SX could take the B designs, and mass produce them, and variations. If its needed they will work on it like they do at BC! Bigelow could not do that!
Edit: If this happens it will not be a waste... (some of the) efforts of those Bigelow engineers will fold into the Mars project, a good legacy.
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#162
by
TorenAltair
on 24 Mar, 2020 15:08
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I'm not sure how much "skill" there really is. There were reports all over the past years (not sure if in this thread or if there were other threads as well) that Bigelow Aerospace outsourced a lot of work and that most of the good engineers and technicians left long ago due to a very bad working environment. Those reports suggest that the company basically existed only on paper the last years. I'll try to find the entries in the thread(s).
edit: Pages 3, 4 in this thread cover a lot of those things.
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#163
by
GWH
on 24 Mar, 2020 15:35
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I'm not sure how much "skill" there really is. There were reports all over the past years (not sure if in this thread or if there were other threads as well) that Bigelow Aerospace outsourced a lot of work and that most of the good engineers and technicians left long ago due to a very bad working environment. Those reports suggest that the company basically existed only on paper the last years. I'll try to find the entries in the thread(s).
edit: Pages 3, 4 in this thread cover a lot of those things.
Here is a real gem that came
from a different thread:
3) The B330 design process migh only be at the point of testing the inflatable envelope itself, not the actual module or electronic subsystems, so even they haven't even begun to make a decent estimate of power requirements.
Is there a breakdown of the power requirements of the ISS in L2? It's a bad idea to renew my L2 subscription before I've finished refurbishing my place, but it'll be good to know it's there once I start designing again.
It's number 3. The drawings are conceptual, done by a graphic artist to please RTB, and have not been vetted by the engineers usually. Here is a typical meeting of the engineers:
ECLSS mgr: We need 5kw to power the electrolyzer to break water
Power: 5 kw? I cant get 5 kw to power the entire spacecraft!
Thermal: I can’t reject 5 kw of heat!
Structures: Doesn’t matter, I can’t pack 5 kw of arrays anyway, it is all fictitious
PM: Wait, we don’t have enough power?
I'm paraphrasing, but yes that conversation really happened a few years ago. It was so incredible, it is burned into my memory. One of the engineers facetiously scaled a drawing for the 'notional' power requirements and the arrays dwarfed the softgoods portions.
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#164
by
DistantTemple
on 24 Mar, 2020 16:12
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OK I read one of those posts... I agree if it was all hollowed out, and the designs are not real, and there are no skilled engineers, then there doesn't seem to be anyone to head hunt.
However Genisis?, and BEAM worked. It still looks like a good technology. and seems applicable to SX especially on Mars, and maybe also in orbit, despite the volume of Starship. My guess remains/is modified to, that SX will mass produce expandable habitats, and they will lap up the IP somehow.
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#165
by
meekGee
on 24 Mar, 2020 16:14
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I'm not sure how much "skill" there really is. There were reports all over the past years (not sure if in this thread or if there were other threads as well) that Bigelow Aerospace outsourced a lot of work and that most of the good engineers and technicians left long ago due to a very bad working environment. Those reports suggest that the company basically existed only on paper the last years. I'll try to find the entries in the thread(s).
edit: Pages 3, 4 in this thread cover a lot of those things.
Here is a real gem that came from a different thread:
3) The B330 design process migh only be at the point of testing the inflatable envelope itself, not the actual module or electronic subsystems, so even they haven't even begun to make a decent estimate of power requirements.
Is there a breakdown of the power requirements of the ISS in L2? It's a bad idea to renew my L2 subscription before I've finished refurbishing my place, but it'll be good to know it's there once I start designing again.
It's number 3. The drawings are conceptual, done by a graphic artist to please RTB, and have not been vetted by the engineers usually. Here is a typical meeting of the engineers:
ECLSS mgr: We need 5kw to power the electrolyzer to break water
Power: 5 kw? I cant get 5 kw to power the entire spacecraft!
Thermal: I can’t reject 5 kw of heat!
Structures: Doesn’t matter, I can’t pack 5 kw of arrays anyway, it is all fictitious
PM: Wait, we don’t have enough power?
I'm paraphrasing, but yes that conversation really happened a few years ago. It was so incredible, it is burned into my memory. One of the engineers facetiously scaled a drawing for the 'notional' power requirements and the arrays dwarfed the softgoods portions.
That last bit is exactly how I imagined this entire enterprise. It just felt bad from day one.
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#166
by
TrevorMonty
on 24 Mar, 2020 19:12
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Bigelow's fortune and income comes from his motel chain. With lockdown motels will take huge finanicial hits.
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#167
by
Comga
on 24 Mar, 2020 21:12
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(snip)
That last bit is exactly how I imagined this entire enterprise. It just felt bad from day one.
No
Not from "day one".
My young colleague went to Bigelow early on and they built, flew, and operated Genesis 1 and 2, which were real first steps to building space habitats.
Then the wheels came off the bus.
Bigelow just could not manage the enterprise to success.
Only one person had defied the adage that to build a small fortune in spaceflight you should start with a large one.
Bigelow's was never going to be the second, according to people who worked for him.
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#168
by
JH
on 24 Mar, 2020 22:54
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Given the multitude of reports about management issues over the years, proving out the technology to a point where NASA was comfortable attaching a module to the ISS might have been the best that could have been hoped for. Frankly, I'm more optimistic with SNC being the only company pursuing inflatable modules than I was when BA was the only company doing so.
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#169
by
meekGee
on 24 Mar, 2020 23:15
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(snip)
That last bit is exactly how I imagined this entire enterprise. It just felt bad from day one.
No
Not from "day one".
My young colleague went to Bigelow early on and they built, flew, and operated Genesis 1 and 2, which were real first steps to building space habitats.
Then the wheels came off the bus.
Bigelow just could not manage the enterprise to success.
Only one person had defied the adage that to build a small fortune in spaceflight you should start with a large one.
Bigelow's was never going to be the second, according to people who worked for him.
How far beyond TransHub did Genesis 1 and 2 go?
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#170
by
Asteroza
on 25 Mar, 2020 03:32
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With BA in zombie mode, how does NASA feel about BEAM? Is the ISS support organization sufficiently provided with data to deal with BEAM should the maker be unable to respond to a problem? Or is BEAM sufficiently "simple" that there wasn't really much to support once it's attached?
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#171
by
brickmack
on 26 Mar, 2020 01:46
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Sierra Nevada Corp looks be working on inflatables and could get this IP & tech for cheap. Let the past die, kill it if you have to. It's the only way you can be what your meant to be.
To the extent that inflatables make economic sense (which I don't think is the case but thats another thread), I think SNC has been the superior option for a while. Their LIFE module is only marginally smaller than B330, but from what I've heard is lighter, has a better deployment mechanism, and is more scalable to even larger modules. And on the business side, SNC of course actually exists, seems to have at least sorta competent management, and LIFE/derivatives would benefit from commonality with Dream Chaser (both in terms of shared designs for things like ECLSS, and being able to offer vertically integrated station manufacturing/operation/crew/cargo), their unmanned satellite offerings, and potentially other modules they've proposed previously. I don't know if it'd even really be worthwhile to buy Bigelow's IP unless its like a dollar, they seem to be doing pretty well as it is
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#172
by
edzieba
on 27 Mar, 2020 11:16
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I don't know if it'd even really be worthwhile to buy Bigelow's IP unless its like a dollar, they seem to be doing pretty well as it is
Unlike every other inflatable concept, Bigelow has flown multiple pieces of flight hardware. They have the longest duration piece of in-orbit test hardware that exists. Everyone else in in the design or ground mockup stage.
Just having access to the BEAM IP and lifetime test data
alone is of great value to anyone who wants to actually fly hardware.
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#173
by
sanman
on 30 Mar, 2020 00:09
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#174
by
ncb1397
on 25 Oct, 2020 01:43
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Looks like people were hired back. Not sure when the governor's orders were lifted and this actually occured.
This week Bigelow Aerospace has the privilege of hosting NASA for a two weeklong ground test of the B330 under the NextSTEP Phase 2 program. Shown here is an all steel testing unit (Mars Transporter Testing Unit).
The B330 is an autonomous, expandable independent space station that gets to space in a single launch. This large space station can accommodate four people indefinitely and five people for many months. Equipped with two galleys, two toilets, enormous cargo space and two dissimilar propulsion systems this is the ideal habitat for a long duration space mission. The first B330 can be built in 42 months upon receiving authority to proceed. The second B330 can be built within 28 months of the first, and the third B330 could be built within 22 months of the second.
The ground test is an important milestone for Bigelow Aerospace and B330. We are hosting over 60 NASA engineers, test leads and support staff as well as eight astronauts. In contrast to the other NextSTEP Phase 2 participants, we chose to keep our ground units at our facility so we could continue to develop and test. We also have many units that are too large and complex to feasibly transport back and forth.
The B330 has evolved from NASA heritage technology from the Transhab program. Expandable habitat technology was created from the Transhab program with the purpose of taking humans to Mars. This is important. In deep space, expandable structures have the potential to provide better protection against secondary radiation than traditional aluminum structures. The total effects of secondary radiation on humans are still unknown, but have the potential to be very serious. Cancer is not the only big worry.
It is important to listen to what President Trump has been saying about Mars. The way to Mars is to the Moon. The way to the Moon is through the Gateway.
http://bigelowaerospace.com/pages/news/learnmore.php?story=b330_marsThe EXIF data on the photograph suggests the group photo was taken september 9th with the number of people present (counting NASA personnel) similar to the number that was indicated to be laid off.
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#175
by
Johnnyhinbos
on 25 Oct, 2020 04:51
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Looks like people were hired back. Not sure when the governor's orders were lifted and this actually occured.
This week Bigelow Aerospace has the privilege of hosting NASA for a two weeklong ground test of the B330 under the NextSTEP Phase 2 program. Shown here is an all steel testing unit (Mars Transporter Testing Unit).
The B330 is an autonomous, expandable independent space station that gets to space in a single launch. This large space station can accommodate four people indefinitely and five people for many months. Equipped with two galleys, two toilets, enormous cargo space and two dissimilar propulsion systems this is the ideal habitat for a long duration space mission. The first B330 can be built in 42 months upon receiving authority to proceed. The second B330 can be built within 28 months of the first, and the third B330 could be built within 22 months of the second.
The ground test is an important milestone for Bigelow Aerospace and B330. We are hosting over 60 NASA engineers, test leads and support staff as well as eight astronauts. In contrast to the other NextSTEP Phase 2 participants, we chose to keep our ground units at our facility so we could continue to develop and test. We also have many units that are too large and complex to feasibly transport back and forth.
The B330 has evolved from NASA heritage technology from the Transhab program. Expandable habitat technology was created from the Transhab program with the purpose of taking humans to Mars. This is important. In deep space, expandable structures have the potential to provide better protection against secondary radiation than traditional aluminum structures. The total effects of secondary radiation on humans are still unknown, but have the potential to be very serious. Cancer is not the only big worry.
It is important to listen to what President Trump has been saying about Mars. The way to Mars is to the Moon. The way to the Moon is through the Gateway.
http://bigelowaerospace.com/pages/news/learnmore.php?story=b330_mars
The EXIF data on the photograph suggests the group photo was taken september 9th with the number of people present (counting NASA personnel) similar to the number that was indicated to be laid off.
Not a single mask and zero distancing. Highly doubt that picture was within the past three months at least.
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#176
by
NaN
on 25 Oct, 2020 05:02
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Looks like people were hired back. Not sure when the governor's orders were lifted and this actually occured.
[trimmed quote]
http://bigelowaerospace.com/pages/news/learnmore.php?story=b330_mars
The EXIF data on the photograph suggests the group photo was taken september 9th with the number of people present (counting NASA personnel) similar to the number that was indicated to be laid off.
Not a single mask and zero distancing. Highly doubt that picture was within the past three months at least.
The EXIF date taken is Sept 9, 2019 (not 2020) and the article is from Sept 12, 2019. So, not new.
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#177
by
Johnnyhinbos
on 25 Oct, 2020 05:04
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Looks like people were hired back. Not sure when the governor's orders were lifted and this actually occured.
[trimmed quote]
http://bigelowaerospace.com/pages/news/learnmore.php?story=b330_mars
The EXIF data on the photograph suggests the group photo was taken september 9th with the number of people present (counting NASA personnel) similar to the number that was indicated to be laid off.
Not a single mask and zero distancing. Highly doubt that picture was within the past three months at least.
The EXIF date taken is Sept 9, 2019 (not 2020) and the article is from Sept 12, 2019. So, not new.
Lol - ooooh! Well that is a horse of a different color.
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#178
by
meekGee
on 25 Oct, 2020 12:42
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Looks like people were hired back. Not sure when the governor's orders were lifted and this actually occured.
[trimmed quote]
http://bigelowaerospace.com/pages/news/learnmore.php?story=b330_mars
The EXIF data on the photograph suggests the group photo was taken september 9th with the number of people present (counting NASA personnel) similar to the number that was indicated to be laid off.
Not a single mask and zero distancing. Highly doubt that picture was within the past three months at least.
The EXIF date taken is Sept 9, 2019 (not 2020) and the article is from Sept 12, 2019. So, not new.
Lol - ooooh! Well that is a horse of a different color.
That would have been some resurrection..
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#179
by
Comga
on 25 Oct, 2020 17:15
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(snip)
That last bit is exactly how I imagined this entire enterprise. It just felt bad from day one.
No
Not from "day one".
My young colleague went to Bigelow early on and they built, flew, and operated Genesis 1 and 2, which were real first steps to building space habitats.
Then the wheels came off the bus.
Bigelow just could not manage the enterprise to success.
Only one person had defied the adage that to build a small fortune in spaceflight you should start with a large one.
Bigelow's was never going to be the second, according to people who worked for him.
How far beyond TransHub TransHab did Genesis 1 and 2 go?
(very late response)
They got to orbit.