Author Topic: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3  (Read 110982 times)

Offline Torbjorn Larsson, OM

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #400 on: 11/07/2018 12:06 AM »
The fretting over perceived ineptitude of SpaceX to have figured out the Dragon UI is below this sites usual standard. IMO.

Indeed. [see image below, replace 'radiation' with 'UI responsiveness']


....

I assume you refer to the video with Behnken showing a non-response situation; it looked odd and if a "random" video showed an anomaly it could be frequent enough. Though I think there was such an immediate response here at Nasaspaceflight of many likely explanations (such as video dummy demonstration) that any subsequent "fretting" is not indicative of this site's average behavior.

EDIT: Language.
« Last Edit: 11/07/2018 12:09 AM by Torbjorn Larsson, OM »

Offline Draggendrop

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #401 on: 11/07/2018 08:39 AM »
We are all entitled to an opinion and you've stated yours. Here is mine.

One aspect that I have issues with are "blanket statements", particularly when used against a group of companies engaged in offering different products and production rates.

The fretting over perceived ineptitude of SpaceX to have figured out the Dragon UI is below this sites usual standard. IMO.
SpaceX and related companies have made a few pretty dumb mistakes. Not the least, putting large resources to high tech solutions where a trained squirrel monkey could have handled the job more efficiently. No person or company that's ever existed is or should be immune from criticism of the way they're trying to do things. A whole lot of people in this place have made livings out of identifying and fixing problems caused by beyond reproach experts, and it's one of the best aspects of this asylum.
 Critisizing people solely because they dare question the experts is cheap and definitely below this sites standards.

From the quote...

"SpaceX and related companies have made a few pretty dumb mistakes. Not the least, putting large resources to high tech solutions where a trained squirrel monkey could have handled the job more efficiently."

To remain on topic, perhaps you can jog my memory and state the last time SpaceX engaged in this "spending activity", how it was qualified as "pretty dumb" and where a "qualified critter" was a justified solution for a business activity.

(I am aware of the Tesla situation and I disagree with your "synopsis" but this does not belong on NSF)

" No person or company that's ever existed is or should be immune from criticism of the way they're trying to do things."

This I agree with but with a note#1 below and a caveat...the criticism should be made by an individual or group with at least some familiarity with the subject and in possession of at least some pertinent and verifiable facts. Otherwise anyone off the street can make an uninformed false accusation that may get out of hand and cause "issues".

"A whole lot of people in this place have made livings out of identifying and fixing problems caused by beyond reproach experts, and it's one of the best aspects of this asylum."

I interpreted that statement as containing a bit of bitterness but from my experience, of which others may have had similar situations, is where my co-workers or I have wasted time running down issues that were found to never exist due to a combination of variables such as a lack of training, operator error, completely different system, local anomalies or because someone said so.

"Critisizing people solely because they dare question the experts is cheap and definitely below this sites standards."

That was a very strong statement when the word "solely" is applied. Hopefully this was not directed at the source you quoted. Criticism applies to both directions but again one should know what they are talking about and back it up with relevant data/facts.

Note #1  "No person that's ever existed" and "they're trying" do not work  well together in this sentence...unless they are immortal.
----------------

What I have gathered from this "event"...Someone saw something on YouTube...that's nice....no facts or insight from where the event took place...make a note...we should then move on with updates to the topic at hand. For all we know, Bob was having fun hitting buttons for the video crew.


Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #402 on: 11/07/2018 09:14 AM »
I just hope that music soundtrack is indicative of what's actually going to be playing inside the spacecraft. :)
I'd be more of a "Bat outta hell" type.

Online JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #403 on: 11/07/2018 10:53 AM »
In my opinion there is a difference between concern trolling that touchscreens are a bad idea when you hear about a proposed touchscreen implementation, and being concerned about a >500ms lag in touchscreen response time when the implemented hardware, running the implemented software, is being operated by the eventual end-user, in the implemented space suit, in a video approved for release by the company.

No, not really. We have no idea of the status of the software being used - it could even be something they quickly knocked up on a Raspberry Pi specifically for the video, or for training purposes, whilst the actual HW/SW is under development. After all, the flight isn't for months yet, and isn't the video in a mock up anyway?

As for the lag alledgedly shown on the video, even a Pi would be faster than that, so I am going to give SpaceX a pass on this one, and assume that they know what they are doing, and that analysing it from a video is a waste of my time. And everyone elses. SpaceX can get any amount of touchscreen experience from Tesla (or me!). This is a complete non-issue.

Offline Doesitfloat

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #404 on: 11/07/2018 03:07 PM »
What is the difference if 1/2 second screen lag and 1/2 second delay finding the right switch in a sea of switches?

Offline fthomassy

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #405 on: 11/07/2018 07:20 PM »
What is the difference if 1/2 second screen lag and 1/2 second delay finding the right switch in a sea of switches?
Training, obviously. Then you don't have that 1/2 second to find a switch. But then you need to have ALL the switches you need within reach. And then the display is smaller. And then .... well, then maybe you are better off with a touch screen even with the 1/2 second lag.
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Online CameronD

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #406 on: 11/07/2018 10:12 PM »
What is the difference if 1/2 second screen lag and 1/2 second delay finding the right switch in a sea of switches?
Training, obviously. Then you don't have that 1/2 second to find a switch. But then you need to have ALL the switches you need within reach. And then the display is smaller. And then .... well, then maybe you are better off with a touch screen even with the 1/2 second lag.

Interestingly (perhaps tellingly) this latest interface is entirely touchscreen-based, however as I remember it the UI fitted to the D2 mock-up that was part of Elon's original show-and-tell way-back-when had (like all modern aircraft avionics out there) a combination of switches for emergency use and touchscreens for general control.  Personally, I do think that's what they'll end up with.. but perhaps for the touchscreen testing they're doing now the switches aren't required and thus have been omitted.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline clongton

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #407 on: 11/08/2018 01:33 PM »
Reminder: There is NOTHING the crew can do that must be done that the automated controls haven't already executed before any member of the crew even realizes that an action must be taken. Put another way, by the time anyone onboard, or even on the ground, realizes that some action must be taken, the onboard avionics will have already identified the situation, selected the correct response and executed it. There is nothing any member of the crew can do at any point during the launch, ride uphill, rendezvous and docking except screw up what the avionics have already accomplished. Crew are deliverable passengers, just the same as if you bought a ticket on Delta from New York to Seattle. You strap in and ride - nothing more.
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Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #408 on: 11/08/2018 01:42 PM »
Reminder: There is NOTHING the crew can do that must be done that the automated controls haven't already executed before any member of the crew even realizes that an action must be taken. Put another way, by the time anyone onboard, or even on the ground, realizes that some action must be taken, the onboard avionics will have already identified the situation, selected the correct response and executed it. There is nothing any member of the crew can do at any point during the launch, ride uphill, rendezvous and docking except screw up what the avionics have already accomplished. Crew are deliverable passengers, just the same as if you bought a ticket on Delta from New York to Seattle. You strap in and ride - nothing more.

Almost entirely correct. Except for the fact that NASA specifically requested both CCP providers to add a capability to manually initiate an abort.
That's why a large T-shaped handle was added to the center of the lower edge of the crew displays in Crew Dragon. Starliner saw a similar feature added.

Offline ELinder

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #409 on: 11/08/2018 01:44 PM »
Crew are deliverable passengers, just the same as if you bought a ticket on Delta from New York to Seattle. You strap in and ride - nothing more.

Try telling that to any pilot trained to deal with emergencies caused by an equipment or software malfunction. There's a reason to keep people in the loop, even if only as a last resort when the unforeseen happens.

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #410 on: 11/08/2018 01:47 PM »
Reminder: There is NOTHING the crew can do that must be done that the automated controls haven't already executed before any member of the crew even realizes that an action must be taken. Put another way, by the time anyone onboard, or even on the ground, realizes that some action must be taken, the onboard avionics will have already identified the situation, selected the correct response and executed it.
I only slightly disagree in that non-critical phases of flight may offer choices as to what to do to the crew in the event of faults.
(not hand-flying the ascent). For example, if life support has a major issue a couple of minutes out from ISS.

But, for most of those cases, if the ground is in contact with the vehicle, the people on the ground are likely to have a much better understanding of any issue and the best outcome.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #411 on: 11/08/2018 01:53 PM »
Crew are deliverable passengers, just the same as if you bought a ticket on Delta from New York to Seattle. You strap in and ride - nothing more.

Try telling that to any pilot trained to deal with emergencies caused by an equipment or software malfunction. There's a reason to keep people in the loop, even if only as a last resort when the unforeseen happens.

Delivering something reliably to a destination in LEO (ISS) is something Cargo Dragon has been doing for years.
No human intervention necessary.
The unforseen is dealt with by having an abort system that is capable of aborting ascent over the entire ascent profile.

Please get this in to your head: this is not the 1960's anymore. Computers do the flying these days. No "stick and rudder" flying necessary on ascent. In case something goes wrong, the computer aborts the mission and returns the spacecraft to Terra Firma.

Online JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #412 on: 11/08/2018 02:04 PM »
Crew are deliverable passengers, just the same as if you bought a ticket on Delta from New York to Seattle. You strap in and ride - nothing more.

Try telling that to any pilot trained to deal with emergencies caused by an equipment or software malfunction. There's a reason to keep people in the loop, even if only as a last resort when the unforeseen happens.

No human can cope with the sort of launch emergencies that even a computer in this day and age cannot handle. So the passengers won't even be trained.

Would be my opinion....!

Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #413 on: 11/08/2018 04:08 PM »
Crew are deliverable passengers, just the same as if you bought a ticket on Delta from New York to Seattle. You strap in and ride - nothing more.

Try telling that to any pilot trained to deal with emergencies caused by an equipment or software malfunction. There's a reason to keep people in the loop, even if only as a last resort when the unforeseen happens.

Delivering something reliably to a destination in LEO (ISS) is something Cargo Dragon has been doing for years.
No human intervention necessary.
The unforseen is dealt with by having an abort system that is capable of aborting ascent over the entire ascent profile.

Please get this in to your head: this is not the 1960's anymore. Computers do the flying these days. No "stick and rudder" flying necessary on ascent. In case something goes wrong, the computer aborts the mission and returns the spacecraft to Terra Firma.

More to the point, this has been more or less the case since shuttle.  While there was a theoretical capability for the crew to manually override the guidance system on ascent to manually fly the stack, by all accounts, it was not possible to do successfully (or even survivably).

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #414 on: 11/08/2018 04:42 PM »
I only slightly disagree in that non-critical phases of flight may offer choices as to what to do to the crew in the event of faults.
(not hand-flying the ascent). For example, if life support has a major issue a couple of minutes out from ISS.

We have to remember that it's not really computers that are making the decisions per se, they are just following the decision tree as it's been laid out by humans. And some of those decisions, if they are not immediately life threatening, may be to pass along the alert to Command & Control and await instructions.

Quote
But, for most of those cases, if the ground is in contact with the vehicle, the people on the ground are likely to have a much better understanding of any issue and the best outcome.

Right. Again, there is a decision tree created by humans that the onboard computer follows, and while some of the outcomes may tell the computer to take immediate action, so outcomes may be to do nothing but to report back and await further instructions.

And all of this may be going on without any alarms going off inside of the crew cabin, and only the two crew at the displays may know that there is anything off-nominal happening. Just like with commercial transportation today.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #415 on: 11/09/2018 12:47 PM »
Crew are deliverable passengers, just the same as if you bought a ticket on Delta from New York to Seattle. You strap in and ride - nothing more.

Try telling that to any pilot trained to deal with emergencies caused by an equipment or software malfunction. There's a reason to keep people in the loop, even if only as a last resort when the unforeseen happens.

The vehicle is designed to deal with equipment and software malfunctions automatically, so even a "nominal failure" wouldn't necessarily require crew intervention. This is why it has redundant RCS systems and multiple computers, etc. etc.

Also, the people in the loop are primarily the ground controllers.

Offline ELinder

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #416 on: 11/09/2018 01:58 PM »
All this faith in the systems may be justified, but I still think it's a case of "hope for the best but plan for the worst". There's a reason so much training is devoted to emergency procedures. If it were as foolproof as ideally hoped, why not just remove all the displays and controls completely from the manned spacecraft and use that weight savings to bring more cargo mass into orbit?
« Last Edit: 11/09/2018 02:01 PM by ELinder »

Offline guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #417 on: 11/09/2018 02:06 PM »
If it were as foolproof as ideally hoped, why not just remove all the displays and controls completely from the manned spacecraft and use that weight savings to bring more cargo mass into orbit?

Because the Astronaut Office would not agree.

Online Semmel

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #418 on: 11/09/2018 03:14 PM »
If it were as foolproof as ideally hoped, why not just remove all the displays and controls completely from the manned spacecraft and use that weight savings to bring more cargo mass into orbit?

Because the Astronaut Office would not agree.

Exactly... how else would they play 'angry birds' on their way up?


But quite honestly, there are plenty of examples where the computer control failed and there would have been an obvious fix/help by a human if it was there. The most recent that comes to my mind is the Hitomi xray telescope, where a computer bug caused the spacecraft to start spinning out of control. A human on board with the necessary control authority could have stopped that and manually saved the situation. But that is on orbit obviously. During ascend, there is nothing a human crew could do.

Online RDMM2081

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #419 on: 11/09/2018 06:39 PM »
All this faith in the systems may be justified, but I still think it's a case of "hope for the best but plan for the worst". There's a reason so much training is devoted to emergency procedures. If it were as foolproof as ideally hoped, why not just remove all the displays and controls completely from the manned spacecraft and use that weight savings to bring more cargo mass into orbit?

What exactly do you propose the astronauts would be physically (or fly-by-wire) able to do in an emergency? It's not like there's a yoke and stick tucked in the armrest they can pop out and "wing it".  The calculations required to burn the thrusters so the situation does not become worse are quite frankly "impossible" for a human to do on the fly (i.e. in an emergency).  Other than that, I just can't come up with any other instances of "human capable" tasks that exist on this capsule that fit this emergency procedure list.  I would love to hear your insight as to what they could be though, I am certainly not an astronaut who has trained in this capsule, or even anything resembling an expert, or lay-person at best!

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