Author Topic: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3  (Read 113317 times)

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #340 on: 09/13/2018 10:54 PM »
This is about D2. It's not about Boeing. It's also not about BFS. Stay on topic.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #341 on: 09/13/2018 11:54 PM »
...early passenger planes were not safe in the sense of what we know today and yet people got in them and flew... and died...

none of this changes the definition of negligence, lack of due diligence and demonstrated error.

Except there is are legal clauses that highlight the customer has affirmed an "assumption of risk". All SpaceX and others essentially have to say is that "YOU MAY DIE IF YOU FLY WITH US!".

These types of legal clauses are hidden in many risky things we do where we assume there is little risk, but there is still risk. And of course there are many activities human partake in that have high risk - and they do that knowingly too.

I'm sure SpaceX has smart lawyers, and I'm sure the training manual will include many points in the training process where the customer has to reaffirm they know about the risk but are proceeding anyways. And it won't reduce the potential size of the market they are going after, since everyone with the money to fly to space will know there is a risk of dying.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline TripleSeven

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #342 on: 09/14/2018 08:36 AM »
...early passenger planes were not safe in the sense of what we know today and yet people got in them and flew... and died...

none of this changes the definition of negligence, lack of due diligence and demonstrated error.

Except there is are legal clauses that highlight the customer has affirmed an "assumption of risk". All SpaceX and others essentially have to say is that "YOU MAY DIE IF YOU FLY WITH US!".

These types of legal clauses are hidden in many risky things we do where we assume there is little risk, but there is still risk. And of course there are many activities human partake in that have high risk - and they do that knowingly too.

I'm sure SpaceX has smart lawyers, and I'm sure the training manual will include many points in the training process where the customer has to reaffirm they know about the risk but are proceeding anyways. And it won't reduce the potential size of the market they are going after, since everyone with the money to fly to space will know there is a risk of dying.

I can guarantee you that language will protect the company about as much as a paper bag will keep you dry.

Dad just finished a case on bunji jumping where such a waiver was signed...and he penetrated it with ease.  it did not even go to trial. I can tell you EXACTLY how the questioning would go and how the shield would be penetrated. 

In SpaceX case it would go something like this

"Have you ever had a loss of vehicle due to circumstances that the automation was not designed to cover?"

Of course the answer is yes.  the next question is

"what did NASA want in terms of test to accomplish a powered landing" (thats a big leading, there would be some ground work set in terms of what they wanted)

"would this problem have been found with those test?"  if the answer is yes.  bye bye

VG is on the verge of flying passengers.  Dad has five clients who are/have paid money to fly on it.  see how it all works out. 
« Last Edit: 09/14/2018 08:39 AM by TripleSeven »

Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #343 on: 09/14/2018 12:47 PM »
SpaceX has said they aren't planning to develop propulsive landing for D2. The vehicle as designed is no longer capable of propulsive landing on land. So why are we having this discussion again?

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #344 on: 09/14/2018 01:17 PM »
SpaceX has said they aren't planning to develop propulsive landing for D2. The vehicle as designed is no longer capable of propulsive landing on land. So why are we having this discussion again?


Because some folks believe that SpaceX will back-thread on a developmental dead-end and develop it anyway.

Online Johnnyhinbos

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #345 on: 09/14/2018 02:02 PM »
SpaceX has said they aren't planning to develop propulsive landing for D2. The vehicle as designed is no longer capable of propulsive landing on land. So why are we having this discussion again?


Because some folks believe that SpaceX will back-thread on a developmental dead-end and develop it anyway.
Not to be obtuse, but what’s “back-thread”?
John Hanzl. Author, action / adventure www.johnhanzl.com

Online kevinof

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #346 on: 09/14/2018 02:05 PM »
Ironic to think that it's "obsolete" before it's first flight.

SpaceX has said they aren't planning to develop propulsive landing for D2. The vehicle as designed is no longer capable of propulsive landing on land. So why are we having this discussion again?


Because some folks believe that SpaceX will back-thread on a developmental dead-end and develop it anyway.

Offline flyright

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #347 on: 09/14/2018 02:56 PM »
SpaceX has said they aren't planning to develop propulsive landing for D2. The vehicle as designed is no longer capable of propulsive landing on land. So why are we having this discussion again?


Because some folks believe that SpaceX will back-thread on a developmental dead-end and develop it anyway.
Not to be obtuse, but what’s “back-thread”?

I'm guessing "backtread".

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #348 on: 09/14/2018 02:58 PM »
Dad just finished a case on bunji jumping where such a waiver was signed...

SpaceX is not offering bungee jumping, and they would have far more professional lawyers...  ;)

Quote
VG is on the verge of flying passengers.

The whole world knows that people have died flying on that aircraft, yet Virgin Galactic is still offering the service, and people are still willing to pay money to risk their lives.

I rest my case.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #349 on: 09/14/2018 06:28 PM »
It’s always fun when non-lawyers play one on the Internet but this lawyer (who’s also a degreed aerospace engineer) is going to ask politely if everyone can get back to the subject of the thread.

Please and thank you.
Ad astra per aspirin ...

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #350 on: 09/19/2018 09:54 AM »
Update on Crew Dragon reuse, from Benjamin Reed (yesterday, at AIAA):

https://spacenews.com/commercial-crew-providers-believe-they-now-meet-nasa-safety-requirements/

Quote from: Jeff Foust
At the AIAA panel, Reed said SpaceX still had plans to reuse its Crew Dragon vehicles, as it does now with the cargo version of the spacecraft. “Crew Dragon, just like Cargo Dragon, was designed from the beginning to be a fully reusable vehicle, and it’s certainly still our intent” to reuse them. That includes the vehicle flying the first, uncrewed demo mission, which will be quickly turned around for use on an in-flight abort test that will take place before the crewed flight test.

For the operational commercial crew missions, Reed said SpaceX plans to use new vehicles for each mission initially as it builds up a “stable” of vehicles. The company would then work with NASA on how to certify those vehicles for reuse.

That approach, he said, is similar to the cargo version of Dragon, where SpaceX initially used new vehicles for all its flights but, after discussions with NASA, won approval for reuse of vehicles, which now account for all recent Dragon cargo missions. “That was a very successful approach,” he said. “We’re following the same basic plan.”

Reed said that, given SpaceX’s experience with cargo Dragons, landing in water was not a major obstacle to reusability. “It is different, for sure,” he said of water landings. “I don’t know if it’s much more difficult, though.”
« Last Edit: 09/19/2018 11:50 AM by woods170 »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #351 on: 09/19/2018 10:10 PM »
Except there is are legal clauses that highlight the customer has affirmed an "assumption of risk". All SpaceX and others essentially have to say is that "YOU MAY DIE IF YOU FLY WITH US!".

Yeah, you need informed consent. What's that mean? It means you've made your customer aware of the risks and you've verified that they have considered those risks. Why do you need this? Because quite a lot of thrill seekers don't consider the risks. Quite a lot of people walk around doing risky things all the time and have an attitude of devil-may-care. The law requires you, as the operator, to determine the psychology of your client and show that they are making a conscientious decision to take on the risk as acceptable for the reward of the experience.
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #352 on: 09/20/2018 12:17 AM »
Wonder how gentle the d2 could land (on land) with the chutes and firing the SD's as the last moment. that way you come down nominally just like a sea splashdown - that will be slow enough and then a quick blast of the SD's to take the last m/s out of it.

I know you still have to deal with hypergolics and potential damage to the heatshield on but it would take a lot of the refurbishment out of the equation. You also wouldn't need legs and the complications that they bring.

That’s a question I tried to ask: When SpaceX abandoned propulsive landing why did the choose not to do Soyuz style lanings with the SDs?
Other than the problem of precision determination of the altitude at which to fire the retros...
(I cannot see SpaceX using the Soyuz method.)
For Tesla Musk is a proponent of cameras over lidar. Surely his people could determine the altitude AGL from cameras pointed out the window.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline yg1968

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #353 on: 09/20/2018 12:51 AM »
See below for an update:

2018 AIAA Space Forum: Commercial crew: The newest ride to LEO:
https://livestream.com/AIAAvideo/Space2018/videos/180468218

Offline brainbit

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #354 on: 10/07/2018 03:41 PM »
Yes you are right I remember the trunk was not fitted with the solar cells at that stage. From pics of the dragon2 it appears the solar cells are attached around the trunk unlike the dragon cargo. Do you know if this was done to avoid some problem with avoiding the ISS at the new docking port?
My concerns are that the political pause button is being pressed without looking very far forward and every time there is a pause NASA gets a kick in the teeth. I get the impression from what NASA says they also are a little fed up with this. Is that cynical perhaps.

Offline Jimmy_C

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #355 on: 10/07/2018 03:47 PM »
It probably is due to either or both the added weight during an abort and/or aerodynamic stability during an abort.
« Last Edit: 10/07/2018 03:48 PM by Jimmy_C »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #356 on: 10/25/2018 09:03 PM »
Not sure best thread to post this:

Quote
Commercial Crew Teams Practice Triage and Medical Evacuation

NASA and the Department of Defense Human Space Flight Support (HSFS) Office have a long history in preparing for human spaceflight missions. As NASA’s Commercial Crew Program prepares to begin launching astronauts once again from American soil, it is vital teams prepare for launch day operations, including possible but unlikely emergency scenarios, and simulations are key to getting teams as ready as possible.

Today, teams from NASA, HSFS and SpaceX are conducting a joint medical triage and medical evacuation (medevac) training exercise at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. This is the second of two emergency medical services simulations to be performed before commercial crew flight tests, which are scheduled for 2019. The first exercise was conducted at Space Launch Complex 41 and integrated teams from NASA, Boeing and United Launch Alliance.

“In the business of human spaceflight, we go to great lengths to design away or to control all the known hazards,” said Steve Payne, NASA Simulation Test Director and CCP Launch Integrator. “However, when the unexpected happens, we must be ready to respond. We develop and practice our procedures to handle the worst possible scenarios on launch day, but we hope we never have to use them. NASA is working closely with both our commercial partners and the Department of Defense to do everything possible to keep our flight crews and ground teams safe.”

For today’s exercise, teams are practicing a worst-case scenario, pad emergency and subsequent hypergolic fuel leak. Starting at the base of the egress system at Launch Complex 39A, volunteer ground crews are evacuating the pad perimeter using three Mine Resistant Ambush Protected, or MRAP, vehicles. Three helicopters, emergency services, and the triage team are meeting the evacuated crews at triage site 8, between Launch Pads 39A and B.

As part of this exercise, evacuated personnel are undergoing a toxic vapor check. Kennedy Fire/Rescue teams are treating the crews as if contamination were detected and are performing decontamination measures. Following the medical evaluations, the simulated patients are being stabilized and prepared for transport. Selected patients are being evacuated to several area hospitals in order to validate all emergency procedures.

This simulation is a recent example of how safety is being built into systems, processes and procedures. These simulations are designed to exercise various components of emergency procedures, as well as triage and medevac response during the unlikely event of an emergency during launch operations. It is standard practice to conduct these exercises, and was regularly done during the Space Shuttle Program.

 Author Stephanie Martin Posted on October 25, 2018 Categories NASA

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/10/25/commercial-crew-teams-practice-triage-and-medical-evacuation/

Online DigitalMan

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #357 on: 10/27/2018 01:36 AM »
Copying this post over from upcoming talks:

Lars Hoffman, Senior Director of Government Sales spoke at Wernher von Braun Memorial Symposium, Huntsville, AL this week.  Substitute for Joshua Brost - no explanation for last minute substitution.

http://astronautical.org/vonbraun-live/

Session 2, Launch panel starts about 1:15:00 with Mike Gold as moderator.    Includes presentations by ULA, Boeing and Northrop Grumman.

No new news from SpaceX:   5 missions scheduled before the end of 2018, BFR being built, with hop test in Texas to start in 2019.

edit/gongora: alternate URL for that session: https://livestream.com/accounts/563450/events/8423330/videos/182438803

I haven't had time to listen to the whole thing yet, but Lars, in a hurry to sum up all the things SpaceX is working on makes the statement "we're right on schedule to do the first demo launch in the next 2 months, ... into its intended orbit, bring it back down safely.."

I suppose that statement could be incomplete since he is talking fast and in a hurry.  But it leaves open the potential to suggest that DM-1 could launch without docking?  I would think not, but the statement is the statement.

Online Svetoslav

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Offline theinternetftw

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #359 on: 10/27/2018 07:35 AM »

I haven't had time to listen to the whole thing yet, but Lars, in a hurry to sum up all the things SpaceX is working on makes the statement "we're right on schedule to do the first demo launch in the next 2 months, ... into its intended orbit, bring it back down safely.."

I suppose that statement could be incomplete since he is talking fast and in a hurry.  But it leaves open the potential to suggest that DM-1 could launch without docking?  I would think not, but the statement is the statement.

That plus the below makes me nervous.  Hopefully these aren't things that fit together.

Interesting talk coming from a Boeing employee at IAC.  Here's a snippet from a report by a reddit user who went to the conference:

Quote
I also talked with a guy from Boeing for a bit, including talking about SpaceX. He said that he thinks that SpaceX will reach the ISS first, with their uncrewed demo mission, but that they will not dock, due to not all paperwork being done, and NASA not allowing them to dock, and that while they do paperwork, Boeing will reach the station first with humans on board.

That's, um, pretty specific.

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