Author Topic: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3  (Read 39740 times)

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #40 on: 08/12/2018 07:55 PM »
Woods, it seems to me you have some kind of allergic reaction to my posts.  :)
Calm down, please.

Nope, not having an allergic reaction. Just pointing out, again, that Crew Dragon interior really is as uncluttered as shown in the mock up and crew trainer, because people keep insisting that the Crew Dragon interior cannot possibly be as clean as shown in the mock up.

Offline DigitalMan

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #41 on: 08/12/2018 09:45 PM »
Woods, it seems to me you have some kind of allergic reaction to my posts.  :)
Calm down, please.

Nope, not having an allergic reaction. Just pointing out, again, that Crew Dragon interior really is as uncluttered as shown in the mock up and crew trainer, because people keep insisting that the Crew Dragon interior cannot possibly be as clean as shown in the mock up.

It's funny, another confirmation of what you describe is that Elon also said the Tesla model 3 controls would look like a spaceship.  Well, that should make it crystal clear what Dragon 2 will look like.

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #42 on: 08/13/2018 02:15 AM »
Crew Dragon is highly automated. During the ascent phase the crew really isn't crew. They are passengers. The entire ascent to orbit is fully automated, including all the abort modes. No silly abort-mode switches or joysticks (a la Shuttle) or manual abort handles (a al Apollo). None of that stuff.

Are you sure? I believe CCT-REQ-1130 requires crew to have the ability to manually trigger ascent abort, or manually turn off auto abort.
I said switches, joysticks and handles. None of that stuff is on Crew Dragon. A touchpad is however. And yes, the manual over ride option for ascent abort is there, but the odds of it being used is extremely low because the computer is way quicker and monitoring a helluvalot more system- and performance parameters than are being presented to the crew on the main display. The option is there because of a NASA requirement with a likelihood of being used  equal to zero.

Manually turning off auto abort is only applicable BEFORE an abort is triggered. It cannot be used to terminate an abort option that is in the process of being executed. The option was added because NASA considered that there could be a very unlikely repeat of an Apollo 14 scenario.

Could you remind me what happened with Apollo 14?

My guess is it is related to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_14#Lunar_descent

Quote
After separating from the Command Module in lunar orbit, the LM Antares also had two serious problems. First, the LM computer began getting an ABORT signal from a faulty switch. NASA believed that the computer might be getting erroneous readings like this if a tiny ball of solder had shaken loose and was floating between the switch and the contact, closing the circuit. The immediate solution — tapping on the panel next to the switch — did work briefly, but the circuit soon closed again. If the problem recurred after the descent engine fired, the computer would think the signal was real and would initiate an auto-abort, causing the ascent stage to separate from the descent stage and climb back into orbit. NASA and the software teams at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology scrambled to find a solution, and determined the fix would involve reprogramming the flight software to ignore the false signal. The software modifications were transmitted to the crew via voice communication, and Mitchell manually entered the changes (amounting to over 80 keystrokes on the LM computer pad) just in time.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2018 02:17 AM by su27k »

Offline John Alan

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #43 on: 08/13/2018 02:50 AM »
CCT-REQ-1130 and it's 297 pages is just one reason I have suggested SpaceX keep NASA at arms length on BFS...  :-\
Design, build and test fly BFS under FAA experimental regs...

But, since NASA is paying for D2... Yes follow their guidelines...  ;)

A crappy mechanical switch 40+ years ago leads us to putting a safety defeat switch in that likely will never be used...  ::)
« Last Edit: 08/13/2018 02:51 AM by John Alan »

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #44 on: 08/13/2018 07:30 AM »
CCT-REQ-1130 and it's 297 pages is just one reason I have suggested SpaceX keep NASA at arms length on BFS...  :-\

Easily done in fact. NASA has no need for BFR/BFS. It has SLS/Orion.
And SpaceX is funding BFR/BFS (mostly) without government money.

But I digress. This is after all a thread about Crew Dragon.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2018 07:36 AM by woods170 »

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #45 on: 08/13/2018 08:47 AM »
Released three more pics from CD training mockup interior, taken on Aug 2 in JSC.
Two central seats evidently tilted down on leg side, missing seat belts, handles or hand rails, camera holders, etc. Some temporary black squere bars supporting side seats... I of couse love this spacious and clean interior very much, but a bit of fine tuning / outfitting is still pending, I suppose.

Coming back to your post again.
Have a look at the recent image of the inside of the Starliner Crew Trainer (below). Note the lack of camera holders? As well as the lack of handles and hand rails?

The reason is similar as for Crew Dragon. There are no requirements for having handles, hand rails or camera holders.

The only mobility assist are the black ropes with handles being suspended from the ceiling. Those are used only during crew ingress in 1G (prior to launch) and are removed (stowed) when ingress is complete. They don't bother removing them in the Crew Trainer because astros and technicians are getting in-an-out of there all the time.


Also I wonder whether "pilot(s)" will have some emergency buttons/joystick directly on the arm rest of their seats
Clearly no buttons or joysticks on the arm rests in Starliner either. And looking at some of those seats: what arm rests?
(the Boeing seats look rather uncomfortable when compared to the Crew Dragon seats)

The reason is the same as for Crew Dragon: no requirements for spacecraft controls located on the seats.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2018 08:48 AM by woods170 »

Offline TripleSeven

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #46 on: 08/13/2018 09:20 AM »
Released three more pics from CD training mockup interior, taken on Aug 2 in JSC.
Two central seats evidently tilted down on leg side, missing seat belts, handles or hand rails, camera holders, etc. Some temporary black squere bars supporting side seats... I of couse love this spacious and clean interior very much, but a bit of fine tuning / outfitting is still pending, I suppose.

Coming back to your post again.
Have a look at the recent image of the inside of the Starliner Crew Trainer (below). Note the lack of camera holders? As well as the lack of handles and hand rails?

The reason is similar as for Crew Dragon. There are no requirements for having handles, hand rails or camera holders.

The only mobility assist are the black ropes with handles being suspended from the ceiling. Those are used only during crew ingress in 1G (prior to launch) and are removed (stowed) when ingress is complete. They don't bother removing them in the Crew Trainer because astros and technicians are getting in-an-out of there all the time.


Also I wonder whether "pilot(s)" will have some emergency buttons/joystick directly on the arm rest of their seats
Clearly no buttons or joysticks on the arm rests in Starliner either. And looking at some of those seats: what arm rests?
(the Boeing seats look rather uncomfortable when compared to the Crew Dragon seats)

The reason is the same as for Crew Dragon: no requirements for spacecraft controls located on the seats.

I really like the interior..  I would be curious to learn about the control laws and control authority modes...I am curious how they would manuever the vehicle manually though

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #47 on: 08/13/2018 03:04 PM »
What handles and hand-rails? They aren't needed. People in 1G can get in-and-out just fine with what you see in the photos. And you don't need handles in zero-G. The cabin is so small that a wall, ceiling, floor or seat is always within arms-reach of an astronaut.

I suggest you review on-board ISS footage. Notice the hand-rails in the modules? Now notice how often they are used by crew.

They mostly aren't.

The crew moves around by ever so slightly pushing off from (with feet and hands) whatever surface they have under reach.

Discussions of the ISS module interiors is rather off-topic but since you brought it up so authoritatively and since I was there in the design trenches at the time (and from the tenor and content of your post, you clearly were not), let me explain why those zero-g mobility and restraint aids are there in the ISS: they are there because NASA-STD-3000 required them to be based on prior shuttle and Skylab experience. Further, they are not just there for day to day moving around the element interiors. They are there for tilting racks out and performing repairs or maintenance. They are there for moving racks in and out of rack spaces (which is a thing that was done during shuttle support flights and was expected to be a routine operation for the life of the station). They are there for contingency ops like a fire, a major depressurization event or attitude excursion.

Now how much or how little any of that has to do with Dragon 2 is open for debate, but the reason why such provisions exist inside ISS modules is not.
Ad astra per aspirin ...

Offline ValmirGP

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #48 on: 08/13/2018 03:12 PM »
I noticed that in the recent pictures of the interior, there where just four seats in the Dragon 2 Trainers. I do remember earlier pictures showing up to three additional seats. Were those nixed? When this was done? Or is it that there is a planned flexibility to make the interior with more seats in case needed?

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #49 on: 08/13/2018 03:17 PM »
I noticed that in the recent pictures of the interior, there where just four seats in the Dragon 2 Trainers. I do remember earlier pictures showing up to three additional seats. Were those nixed? When this was done? Or is it that there is a planned flexibility to make the interior with more seats in case needed?

Four seats has always been the base configuration for NASA flights.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #50 on: 08/13/2018 04:05 PM »
If the D2 mock up is anywhere near flight fidelity, then I'm a fan.  It looks like SpaceX sweated the details and has a finished product.

Offline RDMM2081

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #51 on: 08/13/2018 04:11 PM »
Forgive me if I've missed something or am missing the point entirely, but presuming that there are "crew override flight controls" of some sort, what controls exactly would they be executing?  Shuttle at least had aerodynamic control surfaces that could be manipulated, what could be gained by human manually firing control jets?(better than the computers can?)

Offline Hauerg

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #52 on: 08/13/2018 04:16 PM »
....

Easily done in fact. NASA has no need for BFR/BFS. It has SLS/Orion.
....
Actually, I would not call it „has“.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #53 on: 08/13/2018 04:56 PM »
Quote
Crew Dragon media day in Hawthorne, California.

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1029039092749627392

Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #54 on: 08/13/2018 05:21 PM »
I noticed that in the recent pictures of the interior, there where just four seats in the Dragon 2 Trainers. I do remember earlier pictures showing up to three additional seats. Were those nixed? When this was done? Or is it that there is a planned flexibility to make the interior with more seats in case needed?

Four seats has always been the base configuration for NASA flights.
Wasn't there talk of something to enable a single Dragon to evacuate a 7 person crew?

Offline Chris Bergin


Offline abaddon

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #56 on: 08/13/2018 05:28 PM »
Apologies for the possibly dumb and/or redundant question, but is this the same Crew Trainer Dragon we've been seeing pictures of astros in recently?

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #57 on: 08/13/2018 06:52 PM »
Jack Beyer
 
@thejackbeyer

Quick iPhone pano of the interior.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #58 on: 08/13/2018 06:53 PM »
Starman’s sibling? Either way, it’s the coolest pressure suit around.

Closeup of the glove
https://twitter.com/thejackbeyer/status/1029075966520217610

(Jack again. It's a twitter thread, so get on it for a full catch up).

Offline whitelancer64

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #59 on: 08/13/2018 07:35 PM »
I noticed that in the recent pictures of the interior, there where just four seats in the Dragon 2 Trainers. I do remember earlier pictures showing up to three additional seats. Were those nixed? When this was done? Or is it that there is a planned flexibility to make the interior with more seats in case needed?

Four seats has always been the base configuration for NASA flights.
Wasn't there talk of something to enable a single Dragon to evacuate a 7 person crew?

They would have to remove the cargo areas and the toilet, and then install 3 more seats in order to do that.
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