SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3

[Alexphysics]

I haven't had time to listen to the whole thing yet, but Lars, in a hurry to sum up all the things SpaceX is working on makes the statement "we're right on schedule to do the first demo launch in the next 2 months, ... into its intended orbit, bring it back down safely.."

I suppose that statement could be incomplete since he is talking fast and in a hurry.  But it leaves open the potential to suggest that DM-1 could launch without docking?  I would think not, but the statement is the statement.

That plus the below makes me nervous.  Hopefully these aren't things that fit together.

Interesting talk coming from a Boeing employee at IAC.  Here's a snippet from a report by a reddit user who went to the conference:

I also talked with a guy from Boeing for a bit, including talking about SpaceX. He said that he thinks that SpaceX will reach the ISS first, with their uncrewed demo mission, but that they will not dock, due to not all paperwork being done, and NASA not allowing them to dock, and that while they do paperwork, Boeing will reach the station first with humans on board.

That's, um, pretty specific.

What would a Boeing engineer know about what things may be certified and what things may not? That shouldn't be something that only NASA and SpaceX should know? If they don't know anything, then it's not worthy to take its words as something probable and if they know that kind of info... well, I don't want to think bad about them

[su27k]

I haven't had time to listen to the whole thing yet, but Lars, in a hurry to sum up all the things SpaceX is working on makes the statement "we're right on schedule to do the first demo launch in the next 2 months, ... into its intended orbit, bring it back down safely.."

I suppose that statement could be incomplete since he is talking fast and in a hurry.  But it leaves open the potential to suggest that DM-1 could launch without docking?  I would think not, but the statement is the statement.

That plus the below makes me nervous.  Hopefully these aren't things that fit together.

Interesting talk coming from a Boeing employee at IAC.  Here's a snippet from a report by a reddit user who went to the conference:

I also talked with a guy from Boeing for a bit, including talking about SpaceX. He said that he thinks that SpaceX will reach the ISS first, with their uncrewed demo mission, but that they will not dock, due to not all paperwork being done, and NASA not allowing them to dock, and that while they do paperwork, Boeing will reach the station first with humans on board.

That's, um, pretty specific.

Why does everybody assumes DM-1 not docking is bad? Seems to me it is a good choice given the situation. It's pretty clear that ISS is not prioritizing DM-1, delaying it just because of ISS scheduling has no upside. SpaceX needs DM-1 to fly as soon as it's ready since this gives them more time to resolve any potential issues discovered, plus more time to refurbish the capsule for inflight abort test. And that's before the whole mess introduced by the Soyuz accident.

The cargo dragon only had two test flights too, and the first one didn't berth either, so this arrangement is not something unprecedented. (Originally it was to have 3 test fights, but SpaceX negotiated to have the last two combined, so changing test milestones is not something unprecedented either)

[Roy_H]

Why does everybody assumes DM-1 not docking is bad? Seems to me it is a good choice given the situation...

Docking is the main thing to be proven on the DM1 mission. All other aspects are very similar to tried and true CRS missions.

[Robotbeat]

Let's not assume Boeing is correct, here. A waver could be signed that immediately fixes this.

[ChrisWilson68]

You've got to be kidding me.

A SpaceX employee says of DM-1, "into its intended orbit, bring it back down safely", and that's supposed to somehow be an indication that DM-1 might not dock with ISS?  The guy was in a hurry and crammed the whole mission into part of a single sentence.  There's nothing suspicious about that.  He had no reason to explicitly mention docking in that context.

And the comment from some unnamed Boeing employee is just as flimsy.  There's no indication he was claiming he had any sort of special knowledge.  There's nothing to indicate it was any more than his own uninformed opinion.  Indeed, it would be quite extraordinary for a Boeing employee to know and yet have no other statement about it from anyone else.

I guess everything at SpaceX has been going so well recently that people are grasping at straws to have something to talk about.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/astrobehnken/status/1056349285334347776

[Scylla]

https://twitter.com/Commercial_Crew/status/1058466972579610625

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Edit: fleet aspects are better in Go Searcher thread, so follow-up on Go Searcher etc there please

https://twitter.com/commercial_crew/status/1059459460735926273

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/11/05/spacex-rehearses-helicopter-landing-at-sea/

[Rondaz]

SpaceX Rehearses Helicopter Landing at Sea

Marie Lewis Posted on November 5, 2018

When astronauts splash down into the ocean after their journey to the International Space Station on SpaceX’s Crew Dragon spacecraft, recovery teams must be able to transport them to land quickly. In the unlikely event of an astronaut medical emergency, SpaceX has outfitted its recovery ship, GO Searcher, with a medical treatment facility and a helipad.

Recently the company completed helicopter landing and patient loading rehearsals on the ship, practicing how the helicopter will pick up astronauts and fly them to a nearby hospital.

The aircraft will also serve to carry doctors and paramedics to care for the astronauts. This will allow the SpaceX medical team to provide the best possible care to astronauts on the ship, in-flight, and get them safely to a hospital.

In a normal scenario, Crew Dragon will splash down off of Florida’s eastern coast. GO Searcher is equipped with a crane to lift the capsule out of the water and onto the main deck of the ship. NASA and SpaceX doctors will work together to evaluate the crew onboard the vessel. From there, GO Searcher will head for Cape Canaveral, Florida, where SpaceX teams will take the astronauts to a nearby airport for transport back to Houston.

NASA’s Commercial Crew Program is working with Boeing and SpaceX to begin launching astronauts from American soil for the first time since 2011. The goal of the program is safe, reliable and cost-effective transportation to and from the International Space Station from the United States. Commercial transportation to and from the space station will enable expanded station use, additional research time and broader opportunities of discovery aboard the orbiting laboratory.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/11/05/spacex-rehearses-helicopter-landing-at-sea/

[RoboGoofers]

SpaceX Rehearses Helicopter Landing at Sea

Marie Lewis Posted on November 5, 2018

When astronauts splash down into the ocean after their journey to the International Space Station on SpaceX’s Crew Dragon spacecraft, recovery teams must be able to transport them to land quickly. In the unlikely event of an astronaut medical emergency, SpaceX has outfitted its recovery ship, GO Searcher, with a medical treatment facility and a helipad.

Recently the company completed helicopter landing and patient loading rehearsals on the ship, practicing how the helicopter will pick up astronauts and fly them to a nearby hospital.

The aircraft will also serve to carry doctors and paramedics to care for the astronauts. This will allow the SpaceX medical team to provide the best possible care to astronauts on the ship, in-flight, and get them safely to a hospital.

In a normal scenario, Crew Dragon will splash down off of Florida’s eastern coast. GO Searcher is equipped with a crane to lift the capsule out of the water and onto the main deck of the ship. NASA and SpaceX doctors will work together to evaluate the crew onboard the vessel. From there, GO Searcher will head for Cape Canaveral, Florida, where SpaceX teams will take the astronauts to a nearby airport for transport back to Houston.

NASA’s Commercial Crew Program is working with Boeing and SpaceX to begin launching astronauts from American soil for the first time since 2011. The goal of the program is safe, reliable and cost-effective transportation to and from the International Space Station from the United States. Commercial transportation to and from the space station will enable expanded station use, additional research time and broader opportunities of discovery aboard the orbiting laboratory.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/11/05/spacex-rehearses-helicopter-landing-at-sea/

I'm a little surprised that CC also covers post-landing astronaut care. I would think there are more experienced companies, if not NASA itself or the Navy/coast guard, that are better equipped to handle those operations.

[groknull]

SpaceX Rehearses Helicopter Landing at Sea

Marie Lewis Posted on November 5, 2018

When astronauts splash down into the ocean after their journey to the International Space Station on SpaceX’s Crew Dragon spacecraft, recovery teams must be able to transport them to land quickly. In the unlikely event of an astronaut medical emergency, SpaceX has outfitted its recovery ship, GO Searcher, with a medical treatment facility and a helipad.

Recently the company completed helicopter landing and patient loading rehearsals on the ship, practicing how the helicopter will pick up astronauts and fly them to a nearby hospital.

The aircraft will also serve to carry doctors and paramedics to care for the astronauts. This will allow the SpaceX medical team to provide the best possible care to astronauts on the ship, in-flight, and get them safely to a hospital.

In a normal scenario, Crew Dragon will splash down off of Florida’s eastern coast. GO Searcher is equipped with a crane to lift the capsule out of the water and onto the main deck of the ship. NASA and SpaceX doctors will work together to evaluate the crew onboard the vessel. From there, GO Searcher will head for Cape Canaveral, Florida, where SpaceX teams will take the astronauts to a nearby airport for transport back to Houston.

NASA’s Commercial Crew Program is working with Boeing and SpaceX to begin launching astronauts from American soil for the first time since 2011. The goal of the program is safe, reliable and cost-effective transportation to and from the International Space Station from the United States. Commercial transportation to and from the space station will enable expanded station use, additional research time and broader opportunities of discovery aboard the orbiting laboratory.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2018/11/05/spacex-rehearses-helicopter-landing-at-sea/

I'm a little surprised that CC also covers post-landing astronaut care. I would think there are more experienced companies, if not NASA itself or the Navy/coast guard, that are better equipped to handle those operations.

Before 2008, other organizations were more experienced and better equipped than SpaceX to successfully launch payloads into orbit.  It didn't stay that way.

Life support is a key aspect of Dragon 2 (and to some extent Dragon 1), and BFS.  I'd be surprised if SpaceX doesn't already employ a number of professionals with flight and space medicine expertise.  They already have a space suit development group, which would include medical staff.

Dragon, (and Starliner), and BFS vehicles will fly non-NASA astronauts on non-NASA missions at some point.  SpaceX (and Boeing) will likely have dedicated medical staff for pre- and post-flight care.  Scheduling confidence (making sure the right expertise is available when you need it for your vehicle flight schedule), and familiarity with  specific astronauts, the space suits, and the spacecraft life support systems are also important factors.

[Coastal Ron]

I'm a little surprised that CC also covers post-landing astronaut care. I would think there are more experienced companies, if not NASA itself or the Navy/coast guard, that are better equipped to handle those operations.

The U.S. Government is OK with using U.S. Government assets for NASA support, but that doesn't mean that it is the best use of taxpayer funded assets.

For instance, why should the U.S. Navy have to commit a large surface ship for spacecraft recovery? Just because we did that 50 years ago in the beginning of the space age?

Spacecraft can be recovered using commercial capabilities, and commercial companies can be trusted with the help of their customers - which is what passengers are on Commercial Crew spacecraft, customers.

[RoboGoofers]

I'm a little surprised that CC also covers post-landing astronaut care. I would think there are more experienced companies, if not NASA itself or the Navy/coast guard, that are better equipped to handle those operations.

The U.S. Government is OK with using U.S. Government assets for NASA support, but that doesn't mean that it is the best use of taxpayer funded assets.

For instance, why should the U.S. Navy have to commit a large surface ship for spacecraft recovery? Just because we did that 50 years ago in the beginning of the space age?

Spacecraft can be recovered using commercial capabilities, and commercial companies can be trusted with the help of their customers - which is what passengers are on Commercial Crew spacecraft, customers.

I just expected the astronaut-care part of the commercial crew to be broken out into separate contracts.

Before 2008, other organizations were more experienced and better equipped than SpaceX to successfully launch payloads into orbit.  It didn't stay that way.

There are companies that specialize in ocean rescue operations and get a lot more practice than spacex ever will.
ex:https://www.airmedandrescue.com/offshorerescue

[Coastal Ron]

I just expected the astronaut-care part of the commercial crew to be broken out into separate contracts.

Ah. And no doubt NASA could have done that, but I think it makes more sense for the same company to be responsible for the whole time a customer is "on the clock".

Plus the goal for Commercial Crew was that the providers would also be able to market their services to non-NASA customers, so that would require the providers to come up with a separate recovery process that might be difficult to operate in tandem with a NASA provided one.

Before 2008, other organizations were more experienced and better equipped than SpaceX to successfully launch payloads into orbit.  It didn't stay that way.

There are companies that specialize in ocean rescue operations and get a lot more practice than spacex ever will.
ex:https://www.airmedandrescue.com/offshorerescue

And who knows, maybe SpaceX has contracted with someone that has such experience to either provide input, and or provide the service on SpaceX vessels.

[joek]

I just expected the astronaut-care part of the commercial crew to be broken out into separate contracts.

Nominal recovery operations are the responsibility of the provider as specified in the CCtCap contract; no reason to require otherwise (and likely SpaceX and Boeing are subcontracting portions).  Off-nominal rescue operations may involve other assets provided by or through NASA (e.g., see here).

[groknull]

I'm a little surprised that CC also covers post-landing astronaut care. I would think there are more experienced companies, if not NASA itself or the Navy/coast guard, that are better equipped to handle those operations.

The U.S. Government is OK with using U.S. Government assets for NASA support, but that doesn't mean that it is the best use of taxpayer funded assets.

For instance, why should the U.S. Navy have to commit a large surface ship for spacecraft recovery? Just because we did that 50 years ago in the beginning of the space age?

Spacecraft can be recovered using commercial capabilities, and commercial companies can be trusted with the help of their customers - which is what passengers are on Commercial Crew spacecraft, customers.

I just expected the astronaut-care part of the commercial crew to be broken out into separate contracts.

Before 2008, other organizations were more experienced and better equipped than SpaceX to successfully launch payloads into orbit.  It didn't stay that way.

There are companies that specialize in ocean rescue operations and get a lot more practice than spacex ever will.
ex:https://www.airmedandrescue.com/offshorerescue

For the offshore evac operations, I agree with you.  It appears that SpaceX does also.  The helicopter pictured belongs to Era Helicopters.  They are a large, well established (70+ years) operator specializing in offshore operations.  Services include search and rescue and medical evacuation.

EDIT: ...and they are mentioned in the link you provided.
EDIT 2: Probably subcontracted as Coastal Ron posited two posts upthread.
            "The helicopter pictured..." is here: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45946.msg1872962#msg1872962

[SciNews]

Commercial Crew Astronauts inside SpaceX’s Crew Dragon (4K UHD)

[jak Kennedy]

What surprises me is that there are no hand or arm brackets/braces to steady movements during heavy vibrations or high g movements. Trying to touch a spot on a shaking screen will not be easy.

[Coastal Ron]

What surprises me is that there are no hand or arm brackets/braces to steady movements during heavy vibrations or high g movements. Trying to touch a spot on a shaking screen will not be easy.

In watching the Soyuz flights, they seem pretty smooth in flight. Do we know if Falcon 9 will be a rougher ride?

[Crispy]

Saw quite a few instances of the familiar touchscreen dance:
"I touch the thing" nothing happens "I touch the thing" nothing happens "I TOUCH THE THING" and finally the thing happens. Feels like ordering McDonalds or buying train tickets. Not encouraging :-/