Author Topic: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3  (Read 815111 times)

Online mn

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1119
  • United States
  • Liked: 1006
  • Likes Given: 367
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1600 on: 10/26/2021 09:52 pm »

So, the only minor modification / process change is to plastic weld, not glue, the joints near the waste fan assembly / storage tank (white tee and purple banded fitting in the lower left of the ECLSS floor photo).

The additional cycling / use from I4 likely caused the glue joint to fatigue and the hose to blow off under sustained fan pressure. SpaceX likely used glue originally for ease of assembly, inspection and refurbishment.

This will just make the toilet more resilient and prep the system for long term use if deployed in Dragon XL for Artemis.

We also now know that they use Oxone to pretreat the urine. Excuse me while I go buy LXS-DE stock. /s

It seems the problem was not just on I4.

See this quote here: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=51899.msg2303821#msg2303821

Quote
SpaceX, concerned that the same toilet issues are plaguing its other vehicles, had astronauts use a borescope to investigate the Crew Dragon currently docked to the ISS. They confirmed SpaceX’s suspicions and indeed found similar contamination under the floor, Gerst said

Offline billh

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 797
  • Houston
  • Liked: 1145
  • Likes Given: 830
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1601 on: 10/26/2021 11:08 pm »
I just had to laugh...it's probably a good idea to have the "Emergency Ventilation Fan" that close to the toilet.
« Last Edit: 10/26/2021 11:09 pm by billh »

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1602 on: 10/26/2021 11:32 pm »
Seems too complicated.
Modern hospitals are using a fitted vacuum fixture for automatic urine collection from bed bound patients.
It vastly eases the task for the nurses and is much more comfortable for the patients, as soaked diapers are no longer an issue. Containing the liquid component this way seems a much better zero G option than the large bowl currently used.
My guess is that feces are equally manageable with a fitted vacuum hose plus some initial liquid priming. We just have to get off the idea that a toilet should be sat on.

Offline Perchlorate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
  • 2 miles from the site of the first successful powered flight.
  • Liked: 1075
  • Likes Given: 1499
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1603 on: 10/27/2021 12:27 am »
Seems too complicated.
Modern hospitals are using a fitted vacuum fixture for automatic urine collection from bed bound patients.
It vastly eases the task for the nurses and is much more comfortable for the patients, as soaked diapers are no longer an issue. Containing the liquid component this way seems a much better zero G option than the large bowl currently used.
My guess is that feces are equally manageable with a fitted vacuum hose plus some initial liquid priming. We just have to get off the idea that a toilet should be sat on.
Rather sadly, I just had some experience with "external catheters" in the case of my (now) late mother-in-law.  It seems to me there is a pretty viable alternative for our ladyfriends (e.g., "PureWick"), but not as viable for us guys.  Obviously, a problem looking for a solution.
« Last Edit: 10/27/2021 12:28 am by Perchlorate »
Pete B, a Civil Engineer, in an age of incivility.

Online litton4

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 641
  • Liked: 436
  • Likes Given: 152
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1604 on: 10/27/2021 09:00 am »
Seems too complicated.
Modern hospitals are using a fitted vacuum fixture for automatic urine collection from bed bound patients.
It vastly eases the task for the nurses and is much more comfortable for the patients, as soaked diapers are no longer an issue. Containing the liquid component this way seems a much better zero G option than the large bowl currently used.
My guess is that feces are equally manageable with a fitted vacuum hose plus some initial liquid priming. We just have to get off the idea that a toilet should be sat on.
Rather sadly, I just had some experience with "external catheters" in the case of my (now) late mother-in-law.  It seems to me there is a pretty viable alternative for our ladyfriends (e.g., "PureWick"), but not as viable for us guys.  Obviously, a problem looking for a solution.


I thought it was solved for the guys, too. I read somewhere, might have been in Neil's or Buzz's books or later with someone like Mike Mullane. They had a "fitting" that came in small, medium, or large. Naturally, all the astros at the time, were XL.
Dave Condliffe

Offline cscott

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Liked: 2869
  • Likes Given: 726
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1605 on: 10/27/2021 01:19 pm »


We also now know that they use Oxone to pretreat the urine. Excuse me while I go buy LXS-DE stock. /s

Just a reference in case anyone else like me is curious about Oxone and Lanxess:
https://cleanroomtechnology.com/news/article_page/Lanxess_plans_to_expand_capacity_for_Oxone_monopersulfate/170170
« Last Edit: 10/27/2021 01:20 pm by cscott »

Offline cohberg

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 263
  • Liked: 861
  • Likes Given: 55
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1606 on: 10/27/2021 07:17 pm »
Containing the liquid component this way seems a much better zero G option than the large bowl currently used.

There is a dedicated / separate urinal funnel (with vacuum) for liquids (circled in purple). It serves a very similar function as an external catheter without the discomfort.

External catheters would also generate significant additional waste (needing to store and dispose of dozens of external catheters)

My guess is that feces are equally manageable with a fitted vacuum hose plus some initial liquid priming. We just have to get off the idea that a toilet should be sat on.

The large bowl is just a "can" for holding the solid waste bag open, keeping the astronaut belted in the right position (no gravity / no sitting, just fundamentals on workable positions to extrude waste) and providing an aperture for capture of solids and smells via vacuum on the other end. The bags are then sealed off and stored in the underfloor waste locker.

This is flight proven and the Dragon system is very similar to ISS and shuttle. No liquid priming needed.

As far as i'm aware, no spacecraft has ever used water to "flush" solids. This would waste potable water and create lots of grey water that would need to be dealt with.

Could you imagine how bad it would be if solid waste mixed with liquid got loose in the cabin?

Additional info on the toilet system

« Last Edit: 10/28/2021 04:50 pm by cohberg »

Offline philw1776

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
  • Seacoast NH
  • Liked: 1843
  • Likes Given: 996
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1607 on: 11/06/2021 12:38 pm »
Seems too complicated.
Modern hospitals are using a fitted vacuum fixture for automatic urine collection from bed bound patients.
It vastly eases the task for the nurses and is much more comfortable for the patients, as soaked diapers are no longer an issue. Containing the liquid component this way seems a much better zero G option than the large bowl currently used.
My guess is that feces are equally manageable with a fitted vacuum hose plus some initial liquid priming. We just have to get off the idea that a toilet should be sat on.
Rather sadly, I just had some experience with "external catheters" in the case of my (now) late mother-in-law.  It seems to me there is a pretty viable alternative for our ladyfriends (e.g., "PureWick"), but not as viable for us guys.  Obviously, a problem looking for a solution.


I thought it was solved for the guys, too. I read somewhere, might have been in Neil's or Buzz's books or later with someone like Mike Mullane. They had a "fitting" that came in small, medium, or large. Naturally, all the astros at the time, were XL.

Mullane wrote how guys choosing XL size when it was not the accurate fitting inflicted well earned misery on the astronauts.
Mike Mullane's book "Riding Rockets" is an excellent read. He documents how he and others in the frat boy astronaut culture of the times made Sally Ride's life miserable only to later realize how juvenile he was and learned to respect her. The book can be laugh out loud hilarious at times.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2021 12:39 pm by philw1776 »
FULL SEND!!!!

Offline NX-0

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 178
  • USA
  • Liked: 172
  • Likes Given: 328
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1608 on: 11/06/2021 03:33 pm »

[/quote]

I thought it was solved for the guys, too. I read somewhere, might have been in Neil's or Buzz's books or later with someone like Mike Mullane. They had a "fitting" that came in small, medium, or large. Naturally, all the astros at the time, were XL.
[/quote]

I read somewhere, recently, that the sizes are now listed as Large, Medium, and "Sport"

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37831
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 22071
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1609 on: 11/06/2021 03:48 pm »
It was extra large, huge and unbelievable

Offline gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • US
  • Liked: 14360
  • Likes Given: 6149
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1610 on: 11/10/2021 04:01 pm »
https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1458472861933490189
Quote
Here I plot height versus tim,e for the Dragon 2 (Crew and Cargo) trunks jettisoned in orbit.  4 of 8 remain in orbit as of today.


Offline gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • US
  • Liked: 14360
  • Likes Given: 6149
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1611 on: 11/10/2021 07:00 pm »
Drag sails/tethers/etc can have their own issues (the materials used for some of the sails flown to date degrade rather quickly in LEO).  I'd like to know why they don't lower the trunk for the Crew missions.  The only thing I can think of is some abort contingency.  It seems like they could figure out how to leave them in an orbit that would decay more quickly.

Online rsdavis9

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1612 on: 11/10/2021 07:22 pm »
Drag sails/tethers/etc can have their own issues (the materials used for some of the sails flown to date degrade rather quickly in LEO).  I'd like to know why they don't lower the trunk for the Crew missions.  The only thing I can think of is some abort contingency.  It seems like they could figure out how to leave them in an orbit that would decay more quickly.

Well dm-2 had people. right?
That decayed quick.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline su27k

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6414
  • Liked: 9104
  • Likes Given: 885
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1613 on: 01/05/2022 03:37 am »
https://twitter.com/JennyHPhoto/status/1478439648632492032

Quote
Go Searcher with one of the dragon practice capsules.


Offline cohberg

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 263
  • Liked: 861
  • Likes Given: 55
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1614 on: 01/11/2022 09:07 pm »
Some details of the inwards side of the docking petals

** quietly hums No Time For Caution from Interstellar **

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa2explore/albums/72157720187084178/with/51814784284/
« Last Edit: 01/11/2022 10:45 pm by cohberg »

Offline DreamyPickle

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 955
  • Home
  • Liked: 921
  • Likes Given: 205
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1615 on: 02/16/2022 08:51 am »
Wikipedia has a manifest table for crewed flights and with the Polaris flights it's now up to 17 (excluding all uncrewed).

Unless some of those flights are cancelled this puts Dragon on track to exceed the total of 15 crewed flights of Apollo and this will make it the most flown US crew capsule.

Shuttle and Soyuz are very far away though.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Florida
  • Liked: 5010
  • Likes Given: 1511
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1616 on: 02/16/2022 09:53 pm »
Wikipedia has a manifest table for crewed flights and with the Polaris flights it's now up to 17 (excluding all uncrewed).

Unless some of those flights are cancelled this puts Dragon on track to exceed the total of 15 crewed flights of Apollo and this will make it the most flown US crew capsule.

Shuttle and Soyuz are very far away though.
Had not thought about this before. But I projected out the yearly possible crewd D2 flights and I got the possibility that in 2025 that the total would cross >20. Note here that if everything goes well for Starliner in this year. That Starliner would have only ~3 flights (1-2023,1-2024,1-2025).

Even if NASA decides to accelerate the usage of Starliner to occasionally use 2 Starliner fligths to ISS in a year. That would not impact crewed D2 flights by as much as most would believe. Such that at most a loss of 1 of 3 flights but may be as low as a loss of only 1 of 5 flights in a year.

The non ISS crewed D2 flights in a year will be some combination of Axiom and Isaacman sponsored organized flights. Some years 2 and others could be as high as 4. If other uses besides these 3 sources for flights occur such as usage as an alternate for SLS/Orion by loading up and off crew in LEO of a Starship that transport them back and forth to the Moon could occur to. Eventually though D2 will be overcome by Starship. It is more so a mater of when. But before then D2 will set new records possibly starting this year 2022 with the highest altitude/distance from Earth non-Apollo flight. First private citizen EVA. We have hit another inflection point. One in which that in a few years that private crews to space in one year will outnumber government ones.
« Last Edit: 02/16/2022 09:54 pm by oldAtlas_Eguy »

Online DanClemmensen

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6045
  • Earth (currently)
  • Liked: 4765
  • Likes Given: 2021
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1617 on: 02/16/2022 11:19 pm »
Wikipedia has a manifest table for crewed flights and with the Polaris flights it's now up to 17 (excluding all uncrewed).

Unless some of those flights are cancelled this puts Dragon on track to exceed the total of 15 crewed flights of Apollo and this will make it the most flown US crew capsule.

Shuttle and Soyuz are very far away though.
Had not thought about this before. But I projected out the yearly possible crewd D2 flights and I got the possibility that in 2025 that the total would cross >20. Note here that if everything goes well for Starliner in this year. That Starliner would have only ~3 flights (1-2023,1-2024,1-2025).

Even if NASA decides to accelerate the usage of Starliner to occasionally use 2 Starliner fligths to ISS in a year. That would not impact crewed D2 flights by as much as most would believe. Such that at most a loss of 1 of 3 flights but may be as low as a loss of only 1 of 5 flights in a year.

The non ISS crewed D2 flights in a year will be some combination of Axiom and Isaacman sponsored organized flights. Some years 2 and others could be as high as 4. If other uses besides these 3 sources for flights occur such as usage as an alternate for SLS/Orion by loading up and off crew in LEO of a Starship that transport them back and forth to the Moon could occur to. Eventually though D2 will be overcome by Starship. It is more so a mater of when. But before then D2 will set new records possibly starting this year 2022 with the highest altitude/distance from Earth non-Apollo flight. First private citizen EVA. We have hit another inflection point. One in which that in a few years that private crews to space in one year will outnumber government ones.
There are currently 3 active Crew Dragons and one under construction. If NASA permits 5 crewed flights before retiring a capsule, that's only 20 total. The active capsules have flown a total of 5, so 15 flights remain. It appears that SpaceX must either build at least one more capsule or NASA must permit more crewed flights per capsule. The last time I looked at this I assumed Starliner would start operational flights in 2022 and I did not factor in many non-CCP flights. so I thought SpaceX would be able to shift the customers to Starship before using up the remaining Crew Dragon flights. I no longer think this is true.

Offline DreamyPickle

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 955
  • Home
  • Liked: 921
  • Likes Given: 205
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1618 on: 02/17/2022 05:49 am »
There will definitely be a period of overlap between Dragon 2 and Starship. Most likely Starship will pick all tourist flights (with much lower ticket prices) and NASA will continue Dragon flights to the ISS.

I similarly expect that some of the final Falcon flights will be for science mission contracted far in advance of Starship being ready.

Offline Alexphysics

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1625
  • Spain
  • Liked: 6027
  • Likes Given: 952
Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #1619 on: 02/17/2022 08:46 am »
There's going to be more than just 4 Crew Dragon capsules built.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0