SpaceX Falcon 9 / Dragon 2 : SpX-DM2 : May 27, 2020 : DISCUSSION

[DistantTemple]

OTOH, I think that being willing to do what's right but not in contract probably goes beyond SpaceX, though I'm not sure I can prove it.

SpaceX is the only contractor doing large developments "off its own dime" ( its own $100'sM )
Its the only one with its own large space-faring goals.

Its notable that others only seem to do development when they are paid for it...  This is unlike other high tec industries like semiconductor, or hard disk development, where billions have been invested to get ahead of the competition.

SX is up-ending the space industry and business, heading in the direction of more normal business practice.
SX has also implemented (I suggest) more "manufacturing-like" processes into building its Dragons.
EM has shown himself to be charitable, and states his endeavours to be furthering the common good (admittedly, as he sees it)

So in answer to your assertion, SX/EM, may well do what is right, but not in the contract, for many reasons; 1, altruism, 2. furthering the success of space development including helping NASA to be successful, 3.Its inline with EM/SX stated goals. 4.  If SX is able to step up - they will be paid, its not free 5. Its in SX's interest to show they are fast and flexible. 6. It furthers SX way of doing business, that they have developed a service/product, which is available for purchase fairly quickly and responsively, and sidelines slower competitors that have not woken up to this. 7. SX has the capacity, and capability. 8. If they can step in here, it will prepare the way for similar scenarios when Starship is ready, but not contracted, to step in at short notice for Artemis or other projects.

So Dragon2 capsule 4 (or whatever) being ready 3 months early because SX has invested their own resources, improved processes, and gained production experience, is not a one off.... its the new standard..... and the current Starliner issue is an absolute gift to SX.

[DistantTemple]

I a bit perplexed that NASA doesn't already have a pool of astronauts trained up for ISS and Dragon2 already.   And also a pool trained up for ISS and Starliner.    We've been anticipating these vehicles for almost 10 years now.    At the very least, there must have been astronauts scheduled to fly on the Dragon and Starliner after DM-2 and CFT which have been on the planning calendar for 2020.

It seems like unimaginable poor planning in 2020 to say "oh, it will take $x months to get the astronauts trained".   What about the 2010's?   What happened then?

I realize that the hardware isn't completely certified, but I'm sure there's training sim that are complete.  Both Dragon and Starlink have actually flown.    Astronaut training could have been happening.  I'm sure it must have been happening for the "test flight" astronauts.

There isn't generic "ISS training," probably the closest thing to that is how to clean the ISS, which everyone on board does every day.

The astronauts are trained to perform specific tasks for their time aboard the ISS. For example, if they are going to do an EVA to perform a repair, that takes months of EVA training. If they are operating on-board equipment, then they are trained on that equipment, and of course they do practice run throughs of all the experiments they will be performing. Everything is scheduled and orchestrated on the ground so that astronauts can be of most effective use on the ISS. It would be a waste to send someone up without a plan on what they will be doing while they are up there.

Not according to Garrett Reisman. Admittedly it is a few years since he was at the ISS, but he talks about spacewalks having to be less planned nowadays.

Garrett Reisman (SpaceX advisor, ex Director of Space Operations and Astronaut) interviewed on Joe Rogan.  About an hour before he talks anything SpaceX and nothing particularly new there.  Always interesting to hear astronauts talk about their experiences though.
Video

Audio
http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/garrett-reisman

Also it doesn't have to be Bob Behnken and Doug Hurley doing space walks .... their presence could make it possible for existing ISS crew to do them. (although training and prep are still an issue)

Finally the most obvious way forward, is to do DM2 as soon as possible, with no major changes.... likely a little longer with a few jobs/experiments covered but nothing that would cause a delay for extensive training, and put most of the effort into the first operational mission. This can be brought forward as soon as training allows. Not having Starliner tests or missions releases those slots at the ISS.

Can Victor Glover and Mike Hopkins (first D2 operational mission) work be brought forward, or can they be trained in time for other tasks?

And would it make any sense for Sunita Williams and Josh Cassada, planned for the first Starliner mission to ride on a D2 instead.....

Can SX get Dragon's hatching (rate up) to take the full load of CC whilst Boeing is being de-bugged and re-programmed? (intentional wording).

[ZachS09]

This question has been answered before. Williams and Cassada would have to go through a whole lot more training to go up on Crew Dragon.

[jak Kennedy]

This question has been answered before. Williams and Cassada would have to go through a whole lot more training to go up on Crew Dragon.

Training for what exactly? Starliner was meant to be close to it’s first crewed  so they should have been ready or are you saying the long straw all this time has been crew readiness?
There is still 2-3 months to brush up. Perhaps NASA never really thought this day will arrive.

[DistantTemple]

This question has been answered before. Williams and Cassada would have to go through a whole lot more training to go up on Crew Dragon.

Training for what exactly? Starliner was meant to be close to it’s first crewed  so they should have been ready or are you saying the long straw all this time has been crew readiness?
There is still 2-3 months to brush up. Perhaps NASA never really thought this day will arrive.

For Dragon2 instead of Starliner... And then some for exactly the mission requirements at that launch time...
However if the option was planned for now... we're talking 6 months available minimum....

[gongora]

The number of crew on the first flight is a factor from a risk standpoint.  This came up when Boeing announced a crew of three instead of two.  They're not just going to stick four people on the first crewed flight.  It's still a test flight.

[Captain Crutch]

The number of crew on the first flight is a factor from a risk standpoint.  This came up when Boeing announced a crew of three instead of two.  They're not just going to stick four people on the first crewed flight.  It's still a test flight.

I don't think anyone was insinuating putting more crew on the test flight, just if Boeing is going to have a while longer before they fly, would it make sense to move crews currently assigned to Starliner over to Dragon in the event their launch dates come up before Starliner is ready...

[Comga]

From Eric Berger's ArsTechnica article

The International Space Station and Commercial Crew programs are continuing to consult with NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine and the agency's chief of human spaceflight, Doug Loverro. "That's the target the two programs have agreed is reasonable, but we're still confirming with Jim and Doug really when we think we're going to launch," he said.

What do Bridenstine and Loverro know about the readiness of DM-2?
On what part of the visiting vehicle schedule are they the authorities, instead of the ISS office?

Bridenstine's job is to administer the agency.  That's an organizational position, not technical.
Loverro is the one who said "we fixed the problem" where "we" was NASA and Boeing doing software patches two hours before Starliner reentry.
Potentially mission destroying software issues at Boeing he stated didn't have to be disclosed to the public, but "tungsten incompatibility" in Crew Dragon piping he just happens to mention casually?

Given the absolute shoddiness with which Commercial Crew under Loverro oversaw Boeing's preparation for OFT, how can he say this with a straight face? 
How is this NOT putting multiple thumbs on the scale?

[gongora]

Loverro and Bridenstine are the only two that can approve the flight.

[Norm38]

Tungsten Incompatibility

Incompatibility (materials to avoid): Tungsten is very slightly soluble in nitric acid, sulfuric acid,
and aqua regia. It is soluble in a mixture of hydrofluoric acid and nitric acid. Avoid oxidizers. Vigorous
reaction with bromine trifluoride. Lead oxide mixed with tungsten becomes incandescent upon heating. Tungsten becomes incandescent in cold fluorine. Iodine pentafluoride reacts spontaneously with tungsten with incandescence.

https://www.tungsten.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Tungsten-SDS.pdf

So....  what's in the piping?

[Bananas_on_Mars]

Tungsten Incompatibility

Incompatibility (materials to avoid): Tungsten is very slightly soluble in nitric acid, sulfuric acid,
and aqua regia. It is soluble in a mixture of hydrofluoric acid and nitric acid. Avoid oxidizers. Vigorous
reaction with bromine trifluoride. Lead oxide mixed with tungsten becomes incandescent upon heating. Tungsten becomes incandescent in cold fluorine. Iodine pentafluoride reacts spontaneously with tungsten with incandescence.

https://www.tungsten.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Tungsten-SDS.pdf

So....  what's in the piping?

Not tungsten.
The valve that caught fire when hit by a NTO slug was made from titanium.

[Comga]

Tungsten Incompatibility

Incompatibility (materials to avoid): Tungsten is very slightly soluble in nitric acid, sulfuric acid,
and aqua regia. It is soluble in a mixture of hydrofluoric acid and nitric acid. Avoid oxidizers. Vigorous
reaction with bromine trifluoride. Lead oxide mixed with tungsten becomes incandescent upon heating. Tungsten becomes incandescent in cold fluorine. Iodine pentafluoride reacts spontaneously with tungsten with incandescence.

https://www.tungsten.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Tungsten-SDS.pdf

So....  what's in the piping?

Not tungsten.
The valve that caught fire when hit by a NTO slug was made from titanium.

Tungsten
ArsTechnica reports Loverro saying "tungsten incompatibility in one of the areas that we want to replace with different kinds of tubing".
Maybe he misspoke again.

[Brian45]

Maybe NASA should get the DM-2 done as soon as safely possible (no change in duration, objectives, etc) and work the next crew's training to be done sooner so we can get on to the goal of getting the ISS crewed properly.

[AU1.52]

When did we go from 4 windows to 2? I thought the 2 windows one was only for DM-1.

[Comga]

https://twitter.com/spacex/status/1227339210945777665

The Crew Dragon spacecraft that will fly @NASA astronauts @AstroBehnken and @Astro_Doug to and from the @Space_Station undergoing electromagnetic interference testing

Great video of Dragon 2 spinning around.
Man, that's a lovely capsule.
The recloseable hatch, the reusable LAS engines, the integrated ACS rockets, the windows, the steep walls....
All so functional, non-disposable, like we expected we would see some day.
YMMV

[woods170]

When did we go from 4 windows to 2? I thought the 2 windows one was only for DM-1.

That is being discussed here: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46136.msg2045326#msg2045326

[Arb]

What are the Blue Thing and the Skeletal Thing visible in https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46109.msg2045432#msg2045432?

Images cropped from SpaceX twitter.

[DecoLV]

And one other little minor diff on this spacecraft: the Superdraco ports are painted gray/silver instead of black. Anybody know why? (my wild guess is thermal something or other management)

[Alexphysics]

And one other little minor diff on this spacecraft: the Superdraco ports are painted gray/silver instead of black. Anybody know why? (my wild guess is thermal something or other management)

Instead of black? Where? O.o

[AndrewRG10]

And one other little minor diff on this spacecraft: the Superdraco ports are painted gray/silver instead of black. Anybody know why? (my wild guess is thermal something or other management)

Instead of black? Where? O.o

The 2014 release shows black heat shield and ports along with the pad abort capsule being black. It was changed a couple years ago and was silver on DM-1 so dunno what info OP is getting that it changed