SpaceX Falcon 9 / Dragon 2 : SpX-DM2 : May 27, 2020 : DISCUSSION

[woods170]

At the very least, there must have been astronauts scheduled to fly on the Dragon and Starliner after DM-2 and CFT which have been on the planning calendar for 2020.

When they announced the crews for DM-2 and CFT they also announced the crews for USCV-1 and USCV-2. Mike Hopkins and Victor Glover for Crew Dragon's first operational mission and Sunita Williams and Josh Cassada for Starliner's first operational mision. The reason why they haven't announced the crew for the other missions is because they are at least a year and a half away from launch and we don't really know how much training the other astros are taking. We have seen in some NASA promo videos other astros training on Crew Dragon and Starliner mockups so you shouldn't rule out the fact that there may actually be astronauts already training on Crew Dragon and Starliner and we just don't see that "behind the scenes" work.

My comment was intended to lay out the reasoning why NASA has everything it needs to make DM-2 a long duration mission.    It's apparently got trained crew for USCV-1, and the dragon2 is a long duration craft.   It could chose to fly DM-2 at full duration using the USCV-1 crew, and then use the DM-2 astros on the next flight (with plenty of time for any additional ISS training).

This would essentially be running the same plan using Dragon as had been mentioned for Boeings SL CFT flight.

Faults in your reasoning:

- DM-2 is a testflight. You don't do an operational mission BEFORE the manned testflight.
- The DM-2 crew has received additional training for test objectives which are not part of the USCV-1 mission. Thus, the USCV-1 crew has not had this additional training and therefore cannot meet the test objectives of DM-2.
- The USCV-1 crew is still in training and will not have received enough training to support a six-month operational mission in the currently planned DM-2 timeframe.

In other words: extending DM-2 to a six-month mission is not simply a case of swapping the DM-2 and USCV-1 crews.
If and when NASA decides to extend the DM-2 mission it will result in the launch date shifting to the right due to the additional training required for the DM-2 crew.

[Vettedrmr]

But they would be passengers.
Isn’t that how Commercial Crew works?
They would have to learn the SpaceX suits, how to operate the hatch, find the emergency supplies, etc
Hurley and Behnken will operate Dragon, if necessary.
The CFT riding ISS astronauts are already trained for the main mission, working on the ISS.

Problem is the DM-2 crew.  I expect they (both the crew and NASA) would not want them hanging around on ISS for a full duration mission, and you can't bring back DM-2 because of its role as a lifeboat.

Or at least that's what was bounced back to me when I proposed something very similar on a different forum.

[Comga]

But they would be passengers.
Isn’t that how Commercial Crew works?
They would have to learn the SpaceX suits, how to operate the hatch, find the emergency supplies, etc
Hurley and Behnken will operate Dragon, if necessary.
The CFT riding ISS astronauts are already trained for the main mission, working on the ISS.

Problem is the DM-2 crew.  I expect they (both the crew and NASA) would want them hanging around on ISS for a full duration mission, and you can't bring back DM-2 because of its role as a lifeboat.

Or at least that's what was bounced back to me when I proposed something very similar on a different forum.

Did you mean "they (both the crew and NASA) would NOT want them hanging around...."?

The suggestion was not to go to a full operational mission.
Just add some crew time while the station is down to three astronauts. 
Like the extended CFT plan
Perhaps get in a few EVAs for maintenance with that additional crew.

And while woods170's makes a good point that NASA shouldn't put an operational mission ahead of the DM-2, to a degree that's what was planned for CFT.  That sounded crazy before OFT, but we all know Boeing will be pushing behind the scenes to keep it even now.

Working date for SpaceX's Demo-2 launch is May 7. Dragon is in good shape.
Launch date is fluid and mission may move into late April, or push later into May depending on a number of variables not hardware related. No final decision yet on duration.

— Eric Berger (@SciGuySpace) February 10, 2020

So that's May 7 plus or minus 3 weeks. 
66 to 108 days, more or less.
Exciting

[Bananas_on_Mars]

I‘m still wondering where the accelerated Crew Dragon build schedule as reported by the GAO comes into play.

It‘s also possible that extending the DM-2 mission also pushes back their certification, as i guess they would want the capsule back on earth for that.

I think they will extend the mission only as long as it won’t delay certification.

[abaddon]

I‘m still wondering where the accelerated Crew Dragon build schedule as reported by the GAO comes into play.

"Came" into play.  That report was from November.  SpaceX was able to accelerate their build (presumably due to the factors noted in the report) as they predicted.

[Bananas_on_Mars]

I‘m still wondering where the accelerated Crew Dragon build schedule as reported by the GAO comes into play.

"Came" into play.  That report was from November.  SpaceX was able to accelerate their build (presumably due to the factors noted in the report) as they predicted.

„Came“ into play? That spacecraft the GAO report is talking about is for the first operational mission, not DM-2.
If they are able to finish this capsule early, they should be able to support an operational mission shortly after the crewed test flight, with an astronaut crew that already trained for a long duration mission to the ISS.

[whitelancer64]

I a bit perplexed that NASA doesn't already have a pool of astronauts trained up for ISS and Dragon2 already.   And also a pool trained up for ISS and Starliner.    We've been anticipating these vehicles for almost 10 years now.    At the very least, there must have been astronauts scheduled to fly on the Dragon and Starliner after DM-2 and CFT which have been on the planning calendar for 2020.

It seems like unimaginable poor planning in 2020 to say "oh, it will take $x months to get the astronauts trained".   What about the 2010's?   What happened then?

I realize that the hardware isn't completely certified, but I'm sure there's training sim that are complete.  Both Dragon and Starlink have actually flown.    Astronaut training could have been happening.  I'm sure it must have been happening for the "test flight" astronauts.

There isn't generic "ISS training," probably the closest thing to that is how to clean the ISS, which everyone on board does every day.

The astronauts are trained to perform specific tasks for their time aboard the ISS. For example, if they are going to do an EVA to perform a repair, that takes months of EVA training. If they are operating on-board equipment, then they are trained on that equipment, and of course they do practice run throughs of all the experiments they will be performing. Everything is scheduled and orchestrated on the ground so that astronauts can be of most effective use on the ISS. It would be a waste to send someone up without a plan on what they will be doing while they are up there.

[Comga]

This is not germane to the question.
There are people trained for near term operations on the ISS.
They were planning for US Crew Vehicle missions that were supposed to start some time ago, depending on which schedule you read.
NASA was planning on sending two astronauts with Boeing's Crew Flight Test to spend some time on the Station.
Why could these people not be trained to be passengers on Crew Dragon and sent up with DM-2?

[abaddon]

I‘m still wondering where the accelerated Crew Dragon build schedule as reported by the GAO comes into play.

"Came" into play.  That report was from November.  SpaceX was able to accelerate their build (presumably due to the factors noted in the report) as they predicted.

„Came“ into play? That spacecraft the GAO report is talking about is for the first operational mission, not DM-2.
If they are able to finish this capsule early, they should be able to support an operational mission shortly after the crewed test flight, with an astronaut crew that already trained for a long duration mission to the ISS.

The capsule originally scheduled for DM-2 became the in-flight abort capsule after DM-1 blew up.  The capsule that was for the first operational mission is now the DM-2 capsule.  SpaceX accelerated production of that capsule and it's done (or basically done) now.  That's what the GAO was talking about as a future event, that became a past event by the time the report was released.

[Bananas_on_Mars]

The capsule originally scheduled for DM-2 became the in-flight abort capsule after DM-1 blew up.  The capsule that was for the first operational mission is now the DM-2 capsule.  SpaceX accelerated production of that capsule and it's done (or basically done) now.  That's what the GAO was talking about as a future event, that became a past event by the time the report was released.

That‘s not what the report says. It explicitly refers that the build of capsule 4 was accelerated, the DM-2 capsule is number 3.

To support an operational mission in March 2020, program officials told us that SpaceX plans to complete construction of flight spacecraft 4—now the first operational mission spacecraft—3 months earlier than originally planned.

The table before that quote says spacecraft 4 would have been the second operational mission and is now the first operational mission after the mishap with the DM-1 capsule. That means, after DM-2 they should have the capsule for the first operational mission ready to go.

Here‘s the report relevant pages are 12 and 13

[atsf90east]

But they would be passengers.
Isn’t that how Commercial Crew works?
They would have to learn the SpaceX suits, how to operate the hatch, find the emergency supplies, etc
Hurley and Behnken will operate Dragon, if necessary.
The CFT riding ISS astronauts are already trained for the main mission, working on the ISS.

Problem is the DM-2 crew.  I expect they (both the crew and NASA) would want them hanging around on ISS for a full duration mission, and you can't bring back DM-2 because of its role as a lifeboat.

Or at least that's what was bounced back to me when I proposed something very similar on a different forum.

Did you mean "they (both the crew and NASA) would NOT want them hanging around...."?

The suggestion was not to go to a full operational mission.
Just add some crew time while the station is down to three astronauts. 
Like the extended CFT plan
Perhaps get in a few EVAs for maintenance with that additional crew.

And while woods170's makes a good point that NASA shouldn't put an operational mission ahead of the DM-2, to a degree that's what was planned for CFT.  That sounded crazy before OFT, but we all know Boeing will be pushing behind the scenes to keep it even now.

Working date for SpaceX's Demo-2 launch is May 7. Dragon is in good shape.
Launch date is fluid and mission may move into late April, or push later into May depending on a number of variables not hardware related. No final decision yet on duration.

— Eric Berger (@SciGuySpace) February 10, 2020

So that's May 7 plus or minus 3 weeks. 
66 to 108 days, more or less.
Exciting

I'd like to see DM-2 fly on May 5 so that the first Commercial Crew flight would coincide with the anniversary of Alan Shepard's pioneering MR-3 flight.

[Brian45]

I missed something in the discussion, how much was SpaceX paid to have this "accelerated" capability?

[Comga]

I missed something in the discussion, how much was SpaceX paid to have this "accelerated" capability?

You seem to have missed what wasn't announced.
Musk made it sound like SpaceX just did it, to get back to the number of Dragon capsules they had before one was destroyed.
Doesn't every NASA contractor step up on their own dime to fix things that go wrong? 

[groundbound]

I missed something in the discussion, how much was SpaceX paid to have this "accelerated" capability?

You seem to have missed what wasn't announced.
Musk made it sound like SpaceX just did it, to get back to the number of Dragon capsules they had before one was destroyed.
Doesn't every NASA contractor step up on their own dime to fix things that go wrong? 

Yes they do. When Boeing realized just after launch of OFT that no one had ever tested their software, they voluntarily tested all those lines of code and found/fixed a critical defect prior to the de-orbit burn less than 48 hours later.

IMO all those whiners complaining about Boeing's software people willfully disregard this amazing performance.

[Herb Schaltegger]

Yes they do. When Boeing realized just after launch of OFT that no one had ever tested their software, they voluntarily tested all those lines of code and found/fixed a critical defect prior to the de-orbit burn less than 48 hours later.

Give us a break. They weren't doing anything thing "voluntarily" - they were trying to paste over a major verification and validation screw-up (that verification and validation that should have been done pursuant to contract well before the launch).

[SteveU]

Yes they do. When Boeing realized just after launch of OFT that no one had ever tested their software, they voluntarily tested all those lines of code and found/fixed a critical defect prior to the de-orbit burn less than 48 hours later.

Give us a break. They weren't doing anything thing "voluntarily" - they were trying to paste over a major verification and validation screw-up (that verification and validation that should have been done pursuant to contract well before the launch).

Herb - could be wrong, but I think groundbound’s tongue  was placed firmly in his cheek!

Sure hope that was the case

[raketa]

I missed something in the discussion, how much was SpaceX paid to have this "accelerated" capability?

You seem to have missed what wasn't announced.
Musk made it sound like SpaceX just did it, to get back to the number of Dragon capsules they had before one was destroyed.
Doesn't every NASA contractor step up on their own dime to fix things that go wrong? 

Yes they do. When Boeing realized just after launch of OFT that no one had ever tested their software, they voluntarily tested all those lines of code and found/fixed a critical defect prior to the de-orbit burn less than 48 hours later.

IMO all those whiners complaining about Boeing's software people willfully disregard this amazing performance.

Are you serious? If so I expect not getting any more contract from NASA.
This suppose to be in testing plan years ago and confirmed in every iteration of hardware.

[Chris Bergin]

Improve the tone and quality on this thread or lose your posts.

[groundbound]

Yes they do. When Boeing realized just after launch of OFT that no one had ever tested their software, they voluntarily tested all those lines of code and found/fixed a critical defect prior to the de-orbit burn less than 48 hours later.

Give us a break. They weren't doing anything thing "voluntarily" - they were trying to paste over a major verification and validation screw-up (that verification and validation that should have been done pursuant to contract well before the launch).

Herb - could be wrong, but I think groundbound’s tongue  was placed firmly in his cheek!

Sure hope that was the case

I apologize for degrading the thread tone. Yes, tongue was in cheek.

OTOH, I think that being willing to do what's right but not in contract probably goes beyond SpaceX, though I'm not sure I can prove it.

I'll repeat my apologies for contributing to any thread tone decrease.

[NX-0]

Demo 2 is a crew of two.
Boeing CFT is a party of three because a Boeing employee is also flying.

It wouldn't be hard to tap Kjell Lindgren as a 3rd on Demo-2 but doubt it will happen.

Dragon-1 is a party of three. Could that increase? Perhaps a Russian in exchange for a Soyuz seat?
Boeing CST-1 is already a party of four.

I see value in offloading common, everyday maintenance tasks to the crew of Demo-2 as well as science and operations.

My question is...with perhaps a long delay before CFT, where is hardware and crew flow for Dragon-2 and Dragon-3?