Author Topic: SLS General Discussion Thread 3  (Read 100539 times)

Offline jkumpire

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #340 on: 11/22/2018 12:28 pm »
The PERFECT example is the J2X engine. Development was fully funded. Full funding even continued long after the upper stage it was supposed to power was cancelled. Final prototype was test fired and the engine was CERTIFIED operational. So where is it now? On the shelf. Developed - completely. Never used, and likely never will be used. J2X is an engine without a stage to use it. Just as the SLS is a rocket without a payload to lift.

Same difference - No difference.

So nobody learned anything at all from the J2x program? It was only a bloated research program of no value to pay engineers? Ok.

Offline speedevil

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #341 on: 11/22/2018 12:42 pm »
So nobody learned anything at all from the J2x program? It was only a bloated research program of no value to pay engineers? Ok.
Yes.
Perhaps a little strong, but only a little.
The only possible useful outputs of a research program (as this one ended up as) are things which lead to cost(*) savings in subsequent designs.

If these subsequent cost savings are less than the cost of the research program to generate them, then it is not unreasonable to say that the program has been of no value.

*) Or schedule/risk impacting cost.

Updating an old design, and making it with current technology is not of itself learning anything, unless you learn particular things that were not known before about using the current technology which are widely applicable to all new designs.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #342 on: 11/22/2018 07:09 pm »
Just curious-- Will this happen if EM-1 is a successful flight in the 2019-2020 time frame? 

As this site has just posted a long article on the beginning of mating Orion and the Service Module (EUS?) and the massive testing program that is going on to make sure it works, it is hard for me to accept the premise that if the flight is successful that will be the end of the program and it will fade away. 

If the booster is successful as say, an Atlas A, I could see the program dying. But walking away from it after one successful mission after all the hurdles it has jumped over to fly? I just can't see it.

The long term fate of SLS is not tied to its own success. It is tied to the success or failure of other commercial projects. SLS could have a perfect flight record and still go away.

A government project can go away as easily as it was started, for various reasons. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #343 on: 11/23/2018 05:51 am »
You all may be right that SLS will just fade away since it was just a jobs or rocket building program pushed by a few senators from one party to being home the bacon to their districts/states, but when the program fades away where do the jobs go and what replaces them?

If you are a Boeing employee working on the SLS, or a Lockheed Martin employee working on the Orion, then those companies are very large and they could absorb those laid off. Or, if the economy is doing OK, the laid off workers could get jobs with other companies, though they might have to move.

This is really no different than any other company reducing headcount, or companies that fold.

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I still find it hard to believe that politicians are so jaded they just run the car off the cliff when they are done with it, instead of finding other uses for it.

If you mean what I think you mean, then that is exactly what happened with the SLS and Orion - they were downgraded versions of hardware from the cancelled Constellation program, which was cancelled at the beginning of the worst recession in modern history. Which is how we got to today.

What our political leaders should always be doing is making sure that we understand what the goals are, both directly and indirectly. And that applies to funding programs, and also to defunding them.

For instance, if Congress were to consider cancelling the SLS program I would hope that they commission a study to look into what that would mean for NASA, and what our options would be going forward. And we know that we can have a robust and cost effective HSF exploration program without the SLS, but Congress needs to understand how much that will cost and what it will achieve in our overall space goals.

And reviews are great - one should have been done at the time of the Constellation program, but wasn't, so NASA ended up being told to build a rocket that they were not involved in designing. We should not repeat mistakes like that...

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Offline MaxTeranous

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #344 on: 11/30/2018 09:45 am »
I think you all are getting way ahead of yourselves thinking SLS will be canceled anytime for the foreseeable future.

People have different ideas what "foreseeable" means. Clearly the head of NASA will never say cancelling a major project is something is foreseeable right up to the moment it's actually cancelled. And that's fine, it's literally their job.

Us in the peanut gallery tho can certainly foresee a potential in say 2021 with a new political situation in Washington, New Glenn flying, BFS in testing and Vulcan flying but due to delays SLS still hasn't flown - SLS being cancelled in that case is certainly "foreseeable".

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #345 on: 12/06/2018 07:59 pm »
Even beyond the end of EUS as we know it is the plan going forward: a narrowing of SLS 1B ability.  EUS 2.0 will be designed with Gateway in mind.  And nothing else.  At least they're designing for a real mission with real requirements.  But the folks that invented the tail are probably now realizing that it has started to wag the dog.

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1070754039527337987
« Last Edit: 12/06/2018 08:00 pm by theinternetftw »

Offline llanitedave

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #346 on: 12/11/2018 06:08 pm »
Even beyond the end of EUS as we know it is the plan going forward: a narrowing of SLS 1B ability.  EUS 2.0 will be designed with Gateway in mind.  And nothing else.  At least they're designing for a real mission with real requirements.  But the folks that invented the tail are probably now realizing that it has started to wag the dog.

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1070754039527337987


That makes absolutely no sense.
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Offline M129K

Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #347 on: 12/11/2018 06:16 pm »
What does fine tuning it to gateway missions even mean? Maximisation of TLI payload? Longer on-orbit operational life for lunar orbit injections?

Offline niwax

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #348 on: 12/11/2018 06:28 pm »
What does fine tuning it to gateway missions even mean? Maximisation of TLI payload? Longer on-orbit operational life for lunar orbit injections?

It has about as much meaning as "taking time off" from something that manages to be in a quantum state between being behind schedule and not yet being specified.
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Offline su27k

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #349 on: 12/15/2018 10:32 am »
« Last Edit: 12/15/2018 10:33 am by su27k »

Online edkyle99

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #350 on: 12/15/2018 02:26 pm »
What does fine tuning it to gateway missions even mean? Maximisation of TLI payload? Longer on-orbit operational life for lunar orbit injections?
It may mean designing it to maximize payload to a trans-lunar injection.  An interplanetary orbit would require more propellant or a higher propellant mass fraction, etc..  Or, it might mean designing it to coast to the Moon before restart, etc.

To me, the most interesting part is "need to renegotiate contract".

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/15/2018 02:29 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #351 on: 12/15/2018 03:01 pm »
What does fine tuning it to gateway missions even mean? Maximisation of TLI payload? Longer on-orbit operational life for lunar orbit injections?
It may mean designing it to maximize payload to a trans-lunar injection.  An interplanetary orbit would require more propellant or a higher propellant mass fraction, etc..  Or, it might mean designing it to coast to the Moon before restart, etc.

To me, the most interesting part is "need to renegotiate contract".

 - Ed Kyle

A less capable and cheaper EUS comes to mind. Like replacing the 8.4 meter EUS stage with a variant of the Vulcan Centaur/ACES upper stage.

Offline Generic Username

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #352 on: 12/18/2018 09:57 am »
FYI, SLS Block I and Ib compared to other proposed heavy lifters.



« Last Edit: 12/18/2018 09:58 am by Generic Username »
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Online Slarty1080

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #353 on: 12/20/2018 07:59 pm »
FYI, SLS Block I and Ib compared to other proposed heavy lifters.




Very nice, but where's the 800lb Gorilla?  ;D
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #354 on: 12/21/2018 05:14 am »
Very nice, but where's the 800lb Gorilla?  ;D

Still waiting on what its finally going to look like!
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Offline Mark S

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #355 on: 12/22/2018 01:04 am »
That Sea Dragon is just too much. It make SLS and Saturn V look like toothpicks.  We should build one just to prove whether it's even possible. I wonder how far out to sea it would need to be towed for a safe launch.

Online oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #356 on: 01/12/2019 04:17 pm »
NASA furloughed non critical personnel and no contractor funding means that SLS and Orion will get hit with some slippage. CC is being delayed because there is no NASA personnel to review the reports and give approval. The same will start showing for SLS soon. If the shutdown continues much longer contractors will have to pause all activity if they haven't already started a slowdown. It is a matter of getting paid for work during a shutdown. This one of those problems with a Cost Plus contract vs a Firm Fixed Price. In a CP each task is given an approval to go forward with a max cost budget. If max is reached then work must stop until approval is given to continue with a new cost budget. There is no one to give the approvals. So the tasks are being executed now but new ones will not start and existing ones will stop before completion if the cost budget is reached.

The end conclusion is if the shutdown is short not much impact if any. If the shutdown is long (months) impact will be significant. Nearly all work will grind to a halt. And then there will be significant detail to get it started again.

Online Slarty1080

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #357 on: 01/12/2019 08:45 pm »
That Sea Dragon is just too much. It make SLS and Saturn V look like toothpicks.  We should build one just to prove whether it's even possible. I wonder how far out to sea it would need to be towed for a safe launch.

How about point Nemo: 48 degrees 52.6’South 123 degrees 23.6’West? They might hear the very distant kaaabooom from the Pitcairn islands or Siple Island near Marie Byrd Land Antarctica but I doubt it.
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Online gongora

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #358 on: 01/17/2019 01:17 am »
NASA to build world’s largest liquid hydrogen storage tank
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As NASA continues preparations for the first launch of its Space Launch System (SLS) rocket and Orion spacecraft that will send humans beyond low-Earth orbit, Exploration Ground Systems (EGS) at the agency’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida is preparing to build the world’s largest liquid hydrogen (H2) storage tank...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/46335435612/

Offline GWH

Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #359 on: 01/17/2019 06:29 am »
Interesting about the H2 storage tanks.  Tech improvements are good, but I wonder was this part of the original plan for SLS 1st launch or an add in? If part of the original plan it is being constructed quite late.

I have my doubts about the cost effectiveness of this given projected launch rates.
« Last Edit: 01/17/2019 06:30 am by GWH »

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