SLS / Orion / Beyond-LEO HSF - Constellation > Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle (HLV/SLS)

SLS General Discussion Thread 3

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Chris Bergin:
New Discussion Thread for SLS.

SLS Articles (lots of them):
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=SLS

L2 SLS (Vast):
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=48.0

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Do not post unless it's useful, on topic and interesting. This is not a place for the politics (that's in Space Policy), this is a place about the vehicle.

We won't stand for armwaving, "OMG, cancel it" or any of that crap here (it's boring). You can be against it, but saying you want it to be canceled for the 500th time is just dull. Posts that are not useful, up to the standards of this forum or anything the moderators deem to be crap will be deleted. Want to rant, go on Twitter.
(This warning is because the previous thread devolved into armwaving). :)

johnfwhitesell:

--- Quote from: Chris Bergin on 07/04/2018 04:57 PM ---We won't stand for armwaving, "OMG, cancel it" or any of that crap here (it's boring). You can be against it, but saying you want it to be canceled for the 500th time is just dull. Posts that are not useful, up to the standards of this forum or anything the moderators deem to be crap will be deleted. Want to rant, go on Twitter.
(This warning is because the previous thread devolved into armwaving). :)

--- End quote ---

Can I preemptively ask for clarification on exactly where the line is drawn in regards to comparing SLS to other vehicles?  I think laying that out at the start might help.

FinalFrontier:

--- Quote from: johnfwhitesell on 07/04/2018 06:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: Chris Bergin on 07/04/2018 04:57 PM ---We won't stand for armwaving, "OMG, cancel it" or any of that crap here (it's boring). You can be against it, but saying you want it to be canceled for the 500th time is just dull. Posts that are not useful, up to the standards of this forum or anything the moderators deem to be crap will be deleted. Want to rant, go on Twitter.
(This warning is because the previous thread devolved into armwaving). :)

--- End quote ---

Can I preemptively ask for clarification on exactly where the line is drawn in regards to comparing SLS to other vehicles?  I think laying that out at the start might help.

--- End quote ---
Seconded. Need to know if we can't criticize the vehicle or program here. If not fine but it would be good to know at the start.

Khadgars:
I think we all understand the spirit of what Chris has stated.  This isn't a policy section for SLS/Orion. 

mike robel:
Pretty much everything useful has already been said, we are talking past each other, and anything else will likely not shed any new light on the best course of action, especially since all said vehicles are are either still on paper or being fabricated.

The National HSF Mission is ill-defined and the commercial ones mostly support the owners goals and not any national objective.  Thus there is no main effort and no unity of command/purpose.

When one or more are launched, then there can be a new debate on how to proceed.

A poor plan, executed and supported vigorously now is better than a poorly executed and supported "perfect" plan at a later date.

We have four projects, for better or worse:  SLS, Space X vehicles, Blue Origin vehicles, and Vulcan.

The national main effort is arguably SLS (because it is supported (however poorly) by the President, Congress, and the nation and is probably executing as well as can be expected under the circumstances.

The others have varying amounts of support - whether it is public, private, or a combination.

We are not massing our resources in support of a main effort although we may be inadvertently be conducting economy of force because we don't know what we want to do and things may sort out in a satisfactory manner.

Manned spacecraft programs are in a similar state, with Orion, Dragon 2, CST-100, whatever Blue Origin is working on, and perhaps the DARPA space plane executing in the same manner. 

If the laws of the marketplace are allowed to operate, 2 or 3 of these competitors will likely drop out hopefully leaving us with 1 or 2 sound vehicles.  (The B-52 or C-130 of the space program, so to speak.)

I think it is reasonable to have two different boosters and two different spacecraft to provide continuous and redundant space operations.


----------- 

Perhaps we need a debate thread on just what the National Mission, Strategy, and Tactics should be and framed in 4, 8, and 12 year increments for the short term (because these are where elections align and we have trouble looking beyond them) with 25, 50 and 100 year with more long term goals that the shorter term goals can support.

Strategy is what you are going to do, tactics is how you are going to do it.  Since we don't really have a National Mission, it is difficult to define strategy and tactics to accomplish it.

As an example, had someone made the mistake of making me a national decision maker, I would have asked/directed Congress/NASA, after the loss of Columbia, to:

     *Develop a spacecraft capable of providing crew rotations every 6 months for 3 people AND a vehicle for cargo delivery to the ISS every six weeks within 8 years or sooner on existing boosters.

     *Maintain the Shuttle at a launch cadence of two - four missions per year to sustain the ISS with a crew of two or three and restrict it to other high priority programs.

     *Retire the Shuttle after 4 successful cargo missions to the ISS.

     *Contract with Russia to provide crew rotation to the ISS until we have 4 successful crew rotations to the ISS.

     *Contract with other nations to provide cargo delivery at a rate to fill any gaps between the US and Russia after the retirement of the shuttle.

    *Direct NASA to determine the need, objective, and purpose of Human Space Flight for the next 25 - 50 years to include, but not limited to, an ISS replacement, mission to the moon, or missions to Mars.

     *As these milestones were reached, ask/beg congress to transfer money from shuttle and Russian crew rotation to the new programs.

I think I am going to go find my flak jacket now... :-\

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