Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 11  (Read 222259 times)

Offline bad_astra

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Keep in mind that Woodward & co. have spent quite alot of time addressing the "Dean drive" criticism at the best of their possibilities, including measuring the accelerations at the center column of the thrust balance, as it is detailed in the book flux_capacitor linked to in the other thread.

Moreover, using only the "slip" of the "slip & stick" effect it is not possible to simulate genuine-looking steady thrust signals, that is signal with averages different from zero.
Yes, I have read all about their attempts at addressing Dean Drive criticisms. They seem to be under the false impression that vibrations need to reach the central flexure bearing in order for there to be a problem. That is not the case. The vibrations only have to cause an asymmetric translational shift in the faraday cage contents.

Actually, it is possible to simulate the genuine-looking steady thrust signal using only vibrations. I have the feeling that once everyone sees how it is done, they will all be surprised how simple it really is. However, I couldn't have figured it out without running the simulations myself.

That got me thinking. About pop pop boats. The Henry Bull motor (I don't know anything about how the Dean drive was supposed to work) is indeed an odd little thing, assimetric vibrations pulling it along, but obviously requires physical resistance to do so. In a vacuum or possibly even a fluid it would just sit there.

One extremely low tech thruster with no moving parts would be the Pop Pop Boat and there have been hundreds of thousands of them. Same problem. Thrust is generated by the burst of steam (working fluid) but should be cancelled out by the intake stage for more working fluid, water, which is then heated in the phase state change to provide thrust, but that intake phase itself causes forward momentum by the fluid moving forward, enough to nullify any reversing force and keep thrust forward during the  "pop pop" phase. So it does not violate Newton's 3rd Law. With a very good solar collector might we have toy pop-pop boats moving  propellant-less through daytime waters using only the Sun as our fusion engine, and the sea as a working fluid. No one builds anything practical with pop pop boats because there are far better ways to get a boat from point a to b, including sails. But it's interesting. 

Taking EmDrive as a photon rocket, and MEGAdrive as a highly efficient Henry Bull Reaction motor, both attempting to work without physical friction to work against, could the difference in unruh effect during the acceleration phase be enough to work as the "intake" stage of these particular pop pop boats? We're talking very low thrust levels anyway.. I need to read McCullough's work, I think.
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Offline Notsosureofit

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FYI:

PHOTONICS NEWS & PRODUCTS

Light-driven elastic waves help scientists understand the effects of light's momentum

The momentum of light is now being measured Light has momentum, which can be transferred to matter (as in sunlight pushing a comet's tail away from the sun), but the exact nature of how light interacts with matter has remained a mystery. New research from the University of British Columbia's Okanagan campus (Kelowna, BC, Canada), has helped in understanding how light transfers its momentum to matter. UBC Okanagan Engineering Professor Kenneth Chau and his international research team from Slovenia and Brazil are shedding light on this mystery.

Offline OnlyMe

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FYI:

PHOTONICS NEWS & PRODUCTS

Light-driven elastic waves help scientists understand the effects of light's momentum

The momentum of light is now being measured Light has momentum, which can be transferred to matter (as in sunlight pushing a comet's tail away from the sun), but the exact nature of how light interacts with matter has remained a mystery. New research from the University of British Columbia's Okanagan campus (Kelowna, BC, Canada), has helped in understanding how light transfers its momentum to matter. UBC Okanagan Engineering Professor Kenneth Chau and his international research team from Slovenia and Brazil are shedding light on this mystery.

Notsosureofit,

Do you have a link to the/(an) original paper?

I have found several articles addressing the subject, some more detailed than others, but so far I have been unable to locate a peer reviewed or even pre-publication paper.


Offline Monomorphic

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Oyzw's cavity covered with insulation before powered tests were conducted. The insulation worked great in preventing any natural convection from the copper. I will be presenting the preliminary results next Tuesday. That presentation will not be published right away, so I hope to have another narrated version posted when I get home from the trip.

Offline RotoSequence

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Oyzw's cavity covered with insulation before powered tests were conducted. The insulation worked great in preventing any natural convection from the copper. I will be presenting the preliminary results next Tuesday. That presentation will not be published right away, so I hope to have another narrated version posted when I get home from the trip.

Are you trying to build hype or buffer the hopefuls for disappointment?  ;)

Offline S.Paulissen

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Mono had been slow rolling this so long... I'm anxious.
"An expert is a person who has found out by his own painful experience all the mistakes that one can make in a very narrow field." -Niels Bohr
Poster previously known as Exclavion going by his real name now.

Offline Bob Woods

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« Last Edit: 09/06/2018 07:03 am by Bob Woods »

Offline OnlyMe

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https://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2018/08/light-driven-elastic-waves-help-scientists-understand-the-effects-of-light-s-momentum.html

Still looking myself  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05706-3

Thanks for the link to the Nature article.

It raises a couple of questions, in my mind... In several places it is mentioned that the lazer pulse was “in air”, and yet at least on a first read (I did not see the opportunity to download the article until after struggling through the on line format), I am unsure that the possibility that the lazer pulse may have generated an accompanying kinetic “air pulse”... Were they detecting a kinetic transfer to the mirror surface from an air displacement or the laser pulse itself? ... it would have been good had the experiment been conducted in vacuum or an attempt to characterize the effect of an air pulse alone on the mirror.

If the results could be repeated in vacuum, it would seem to confirm their conclusions. If the results could be the result of kinetic characteristics of the air the laser interacted with, it may suggest a need to further evaluated the lazer/air interaction.

However, even assuming the results were even partially from a kinetic interaction between the mirror surface and air, where an EmDrive is concerned and air filled.., it might suggest that an asymmetric EM field inside the frustum, could result in a more energetic and also asymmetric kinetic interaction between charged components of the internal atmosphere and the frustum walls. Essentially, one could look at the interaction between atoms/air molecules kinetically affected by a GHz EM field, as asymmetric boundary conditions, more energized where the field intensity is greatest. If this were the case and resulted in any useable thrust, it would require that any EmDrive designed for use in space be designed to operate with a contained internal atmosphere.

It might also suggest a greater need for cooling mechanisms to maintain effective air/frustum boundary conditions over time....
« Last Edit: 09/06/2018 07:04 pm by OnlyMe »

Offline racevedo88

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 Monomorphic: I am no physicist. I am what you will call a hoper ( as in I hope it works).  However, I have followed your work, and will argue that whatever the results of your experiment were, You will probably present the hardest to dispute case either for or against the EM Drive. You have accepted the critique from both sides of the of the argument in order to make your experiment better and eliminate as many of the experimental errors as possible. From a layman's point of view you deserve this community thanks. Anyways, Hats off to you, good luck in your presentation.

V/R

Rafael Acevedo 

Offline Johnny_Tsunami

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The Henry Bull motor seems to function based on the properties of the spring; how much damping it can provide over a time period in relation to how fast the frequency is driving whatever impactor is in there. Changing the properties of the spring, friction level of the surface, frequency of the impactor and weight of the impactor would all be independent variables changing how fast and in which direction this gizmo wants to go. Hanging on a string it would probably just buzz and vibrate itself into chaos most of the time while sometimes finding rhythm. Like watching two air powered windshield wipers on an old bus. Actually the string would also become a variable in finding stability for a short time.

Offline Monomorphic

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I just arrived at the Advanced Propulsion Workshop 2018 in Estes Park. First thing I am wondering is why they feel the need to have this at 8,000 ft   :o   I'm sensitive to altitude sickness so I have to take it very easy. I'm light headed, my heart is racing, and I can't drink enough water.

I haven't seen anyone else yet. I think most people will begin trickling in at 6:pm mountain time. The first presentation is tonight on Mars. My presentation is tomorrow afternoon.

CORRECTION.. I just saw Marc Millis and Martin Tajmar and his group.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2018 10:02 pm by Monomorphic »

Offline Mark7777777

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I just arrived at the Advanced Propulsion Workshop 2018 in Estes Park. First thing I am wondering is why they feel the need to have this at 8,000 ft   :o   I'm sensitive to altitude sickness so I have to take it very easy. I'm light headed, my heart is racing, and I can't drink enough water.

I haven't seen anyone else yet. I think most people will begin trickling in at 6:pm mountain time. The first presentation is tonight on Mars. My presentation is tomorrow afternoon.

CORRECTION.. I just saw Marc Millis and Martin Tajmar and his group.

Does anyone know if the conference will be live-streamed?
« Last Edit: 09/10/2018 10:28 pm by Mark7777777 »

Offline Bob Woods

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I just arrived at the Advanced Propulsion Workshop 2018 in Estes Park. First thing I am wondering is why they feel the need to have this at 8,000 ft   :o   I'm sensitive to altitude sickness so I have to take it very easy. I'm light headed, my heart is racing, and I can't drink enough water.

I haven't seen anyone else yet. I think most people will begin trickling in at 6:pm mountain time. The first presentation is tonight on Mars. My presentation is tomorrow afternoon.

CORRECTION.. I just saw Marc Millis and Martin Tajmar and his group.

Does anyone know if the conference will be live-streamed?
I don't believe so. Last time they video'd but it took a week or two to get it available and it came in batches. Nothing I saw on their website.

Offline Mark7777777

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I just arrived at the Advanced Propulsion Workshop 2018 in Estes Park. First thing I am wondering is why they feel the need to have this at 8,000 ft   :o   I'm sensitive to altitude sickness so I have to take it very easy. I'm light headed, my heart is racing, and I can't drink enough water.

I haven't seen anyone else yet. I think most people will begin trickling in at 6:pm mountain time. The first presentation is tonight on Mars. My presentation is tomorrow afternoon.

CORRECTION.. I just saw Marc Millis and Martin Tajmar and his group.

Does anyone know if the conference will be live-streamed?
I don't believe so. Last time they video'd but it took a week or two to get it available and it came in batches. Nothing I saw on their website.

I Googled and found a schedule from https://physics.fullerton.edu/~heidi/estes.html :

SCHEDULE: Estes Park Advanced Propulsion Workshop 2018

Day 0: Arrival day : Monday Sept 10th 2018
Meeting room should be available from 3pm today. Look for signs in the lobby of Longs Lodge around 6pm... Heidi will be around with badges! And Tuesday morning after breakfast.

DINNER 5:00-6:30pm

7:00-8:00pm Evening talk by Brandenburg Mars topics

Day 1: Tuesday 11th Sept. 2018

BREAKFAST 7:30-8:55am
9:00am Meeting Introduction /video/audio/sign papers .... 15mins
Heidi 9:15am – 10:40am Jim W; Mach effect recent experiments at Fullerton 10:45-11:50am Pitfalls of the Maxwellian approx in GR. Lance Williams

LUNCH 12:00-1:25pm

1:30-2:30pm Jose’ Rodal, “Theoretical analysis of Mach-effect space-propulsion”

COFFEE BREAK 2:30-2:45pm

2:45pm Next encounter with interstellar object... Marshal Eubanks
3:45pm Simulating and testing propulsion devices on a low-thrust torsion pendulum... James Ciomperlik
4:15pm A more efficient driver for piezoelectric actuators. .... David Jenkins

DINNER 5:00-6:30pm

Evening Session 7-8pm Paul Murad, “Gravity, Anti-gravity and exposing light on dark matter”.

Day 2: Wednesday 12th Sept. 2018

BREAKFAST 7:30-8:45am
8:50am Meeting Announcements .... 5mins HF group
photo afternoon coffee break.. tonight cars after dinner 6:50pm to Windcliffe.
9:00-10:00am Martin Tajmar “Space Drive projects overview”
10:00-10:45am Maxime Monette, “Space Drive: In depth analysis of Mach effects experiments and alternative designs”.
10:45 -11:30am Marcel Weikert, “Space Drives: Progress on EMDrive testing”. 11:30- 12:15pm Matthias Kossling, “Space Drives: Thrust drive development and preliminary Mach-Effect thruster test results.”

LUNCH 12:00-1:25pm

1:30-2:30pm Mike Lorrey .... funding sources (or GEM theory by J. Brandenberg)

COFFEE BREAK 2:30-2:45pm group photo!!

2:45pm Negatve Casimir energy densities in the Woodward and Alcubierre drives. ..Ray Chiao
3:45pm Johnathon Thompson, 2 short talks. (Jay Sharping could not make it)

DINNER 5:00-6:30pm

Evening Session 6:50-9pm Windcliffe Soiree wine and cheese.

Day 3: Thursday 13th Sept.

2018 BREAKFAST 7:00-7:50am
8:00am Meeting Announcements .... 5mins HF Jan Harzan tonight UFO’s

LUNCH 12:00-1:25pm
Greg Meholic “The tri-space model of the universe” Wormholes as starships.... John Cramer
8:05-9:05 am
9:10-10:10am
10:10-11:10am
11:10- 12:10am Recent experiment results.... George Hathaway (or Heidi standin)
Asteroid mining and space settlement, Anthony Longman

AFTER LUNCH
1:30-2:30pm Mike McDonald “Thrust measurement and errors of a microwave cavity”
COFFEE BREAK 2:30-2:45pm
2:45-3:40pm ........... David Hyland, “Lamina Switching Process for the Dynamic Casimir Epitaxial Device”
3:45- 4:45pm ........... Eric Jansson (David Mathes cannot make it)
DINNER 5:00-6:30pm
Evening Session 7-8pm Jan Harzan UFO’s

Day 4: Friday 14th Sept

2018 BREAKFAST 7:30-8:50am
8:55am Meeting Announcements .... 5mins End of meeting, sign email sheet, and audio/video rights
9:00-10:00am 10:00-11:00am 11:00- 12:00am

 


 
« Last Edit: 09/11/2018 10:39 am by Mark7777777 »

Offline Mark7777777

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I just arrived at the Advanced Propulsion Workshop 2018 in Estes Park. First thing I am wondering is why they feel the need to have this at 8,000 ft   :o   I'm sensitive to altitude sickness so I have to take it very easy. I'm light headed, my heart is racing, and I can't drink enough water.

I haven't seen anyone else yet. I think most people will begin trickling in at 6:pm mountain time. The first presentation is tonight on Mars. My presentation is tomorrow afternoon.

CORRECTION.. I just saw Marc Millis and Martin Tajmar and his group.

Does anyone know if the conference will be live-streamed?
I don't believe so. Last time they video'd but it took a week or two to get it available and it came in batches. Nothing I saw on their website.

And there is a 26-page Abstracts PDF: https://physics.fullerton.edu/~heidi/abstracts.pdf

Offline X_RaY

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Is there anyone at the Estes Park conference who is willing to give us a short summery of the results up to now?
Thanks :)
We people, following this topic, but not able to visit the conference are quite interested in it.  :P ::)
« Last Edit: 09/11/2018 08:01 pm by X_RaY »

Offline Monomorphic

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Is there anyone at the Estes Park conference who is willing to give us a short summery of the results up to now?
Thanks :)
We people, following this topic, but not able to visit the conference are quite interested in it.  :P ::)

General consensus is that the Emdrive does not work. I reported negative results for my tests today. Martin Tajmar and his group will report similar findings tomorrow. 

Of particular interest to this forum is the story Martin Tajmar and his students told me of Roger Shawyer's visit to their lab. They asked Roger for an older device to test and Roger told them he would only loan them a device if they report some positive results BEFORE they get the device. They refused of course.

As for the mach effect thruster, it is also not doing well. Several high level physics heavy presentations, including one by Dr. Rodal, that make the claim that the mach effect thruster cannot work as Woodward describes and is likely a self-interaction effect. Tajmar's group thinks it doesn't work and will report tomorrow.  Then in my presentation I showed how Woodward's thrust signature can be generated in a simulation of the device using first principles and simple mechanics - and how everything equals out to zero at the end.  I was also able to build a crude 3 DOF device that produced the same "thrust" signature.
« Last Edit: 09/12/2018 03:43 am by Monomorphic »

Offline RotoSequence

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Is there anyone at the Estes Park conference who is willing to give us a short summery of the results up to now?
Thanks :)
We people, following this topic, but not able to visit the conference are quite interested in it.  :P ::)

General consensus is that the Emdrive does not work. I reported negative results for my tests today. Martin Tajmar and his group will report similar findings tomorrow. 

Of particular interest to this forum is the story Martin Tajmar and his students told me of Roger Shawyer's visit to their lab. They asked Roger for an older device to test and Roger told them he would only loan them a device if they report some positive results BEFORE they get the device. They refused of course.

As for the mach effect thruster, it is also not doing well. Several high level physics heavy presentations, including one by Dr. Rodal, that make the claim that the mach effect thruster cannot work as Woodward describes and is likely a self-interaction effect. Tajmar's group thinks it doesn't work and will report tomorrow.  Then in my presentation I showed how Woodward's thrust signature can be generated in a simulation of the device using first principles and simple mechanics - and how everything equals out to zero at the end.  I was also able to build a crude 3 DOF device that produced the same "thrust" signature.

Well darn. I guess that's a wrap, eh?  :-\

Offline Bob Woods

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Yet on Sept. 25 Dr Woodward is scheduled for the Phase II Project paper/grant NASA has awarded at the Boston NIAC Symposium. Stay tuned folks. When was the last time everyone at a science conference agreed?  ::)
« Last Edit: 09/12/2018 05:04 am by Bob Woods »

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