Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 11  (Read 184982 times)

Offline demofsky

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I found results for the average poynting vector field that looks very interesting in a special situation. See pics

Very interesting!  Be interesting to see what Fano resonance profiles might exist.

Offline spupeng7

" ... the concept of a common time at different space points does not have a relativistically covariant meaning."
Sin-Itiro Tomonaga - Nobel Lecture 1966


       Two of the symmetries which are intrinsic to reality are, time itself, where each observer observes the same rate of passage of time locally even though these rates vary relative to each-other, and the speed of light which is isotropic and does not depend on the state of motion of the observer. But these symmetries are not compatible and cannot be mathematically described if time is linear because what is synchronous in linear time varies with the origin your perspective. These symmetries can only be resolved if time is a complex function. Coincidence between the emission and absorption of each instance of a quantum of radiation is possible if all separations at light speed occur at coincidence in complex time.
       Consider, t the proper time for either the traveler or the observer, v their velocity, c the speed of light and i the square root of minus one,

              t + ivt / c = 0

allowing direct connection between all mass.
       Complex time allows an explanation for emdrive thrust. If all charges constantly interact then a highly charged resonant capacitor with greater duration of momentum storage at one extreme of linear dimension than another, does provide a mechanism whereby force may be exerted by a discreet mechanism upon the distant universe.

http://vixra.org/author/john_malcolm_newell
Optimism equals opportunity.

Online RotoSequence

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https://arxiv.org/abs/1807.08771

Quote from: The mass of sound
We show that the commonly accepted statement that sound waves do not transport mass is only true at linear order. Using effective field theory techniques, we confirm the result found in [Phys. Rev. B97, 134516 (2018), 1705.08914] for zero-temperature superfluids, and extend it to the case of solids and ordinary fluids. We show that, in fact, sound waves do carry mass---in particular, gravitational mass. This implies that a sound wave not only is affected by gravity but also generates a tiny gravitational field. Our findings are valid for non-relativistic media as well, and could have intriguing experimental implications.

Offline meberbs

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But these symmetries are not compatible and cannot be mathematically described if time is linear because what is synchronous in linear time varies with the origin your perspective. These symmetries can only be resolved if time is a complex function.
False, special relativity resolves this perfectly, and does not need complex numbers. In fact it is essentially a linear theory.

http://vixra.org/author/john_malcolm_newell
Have you made any progress since we last had this conversation? It doesn't sound like you are saying anything new, and the linked articles aren't new enough to have resolved the impasse we ended at. I don't see any need to repeat the same conversation we have already had.

Online Monomorphic

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I've drilled the holes in Oyzw's frustum so there's no turning back now.   ???   You can see in the 3D image how the tuning is supposed to work. Simply turn the knob to rotate and move the antennas in and out - almost exactly like before, except the tuners must be designed to fit the curve of the frustum.  I was able to use two knobs from another cavity so I only need to print the two parts that fit against the frustum.  Those are printing now.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2018 11:43 PM by Monomorphic »

Offline oyzw

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I've drilled the holes in Oyzw's frustum so there's no turning back now.   ???   You can see in the 3D image how the tuning is supposed to work. Simply turn the knob to rotate and move the antennas in and out - almost exactly like before, except the tuners must be designed to fit the curve of the frustum.  I was able to use two knobs from another cavity so I only need to print the two parts that fit against the frustum.  Those are printing now.
You can use a short-circuit ring with a diameter of 20mm as the antenna.

Offline RERT

Hi Jamie - back at Keyboard again, and viewed your shakedown video.

Sadly I'm still not really getting it, at least not from the video. I wasn't seeing any LDS response at all, probably just a scale/eyesight issue. Same with temperature.

What was very convincing about Tajmar's work was that he could turn on a choke which essentially cut off all power to the frustrum, while still delivering power to the board. Despite that he still saw almost exactly the same effects. Onset was very rapid, and so thermal effects were not really an issue.

If you run a longer test to thermal equilibrium, the same kind of null test would apply if you could deliver the same power (heat) while switching RF to the frustrum on and off. If it made no difference, it signals no thrust.

If you run a longer test with RF and power tied together - i.e. on and off at the same time - you are expecting to see pendulum deflection from thermal effects. I'm not really getting how you extract a null from this. The pendulum moves, and you will be left asserting that there is no EMdrive effect because...heat. The last thing you want is to have to model the pendulum and say that it's movement is consistent with X not Y.

I suspect I'm just being slow here, but could you run me through the tests you plan to run and the logic you will use to assert a definitive positive or negative result?

Online Monomorphic

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What was very convincing about Tajmar's work was that he could turn on a choke which essentially cut off all power to the frustrum, while still delivering power to the board. Despite that he still saw almost exactly the same effects. Onset was very rapid, and so thermal effects were not really an issue.

...could you run me through the tests you plan to run and the logic you will use to assert a definitive positive or negative result?

It is not very clear from the graph below, but I also have the ability to cut RF power to the cavity using the PTT (Push To Talk) function on the amplifier. Power is still being delivered to the amplifier even without the PTT button pressed. In the graph below the PTT is yellow and the RF is red. Power to the amplifier was on from before the graph starts because I was busy talking. The green line, which is the amplifier board temperature, is constantly rising from the moment power was turned on. Then when the PTT is pressed and RF is present, the board goes from ~8A idle to ~12A. That's not exactly how Tajmar does it because he can keep the board at full power while diverting the RF, but it's a lot better than not having the ability at all.

If there was fast response thrust, like that reported by NASA, then one would expect the LDS to begin moving almost immediately upon pressing the PTT and begin to return to zero when PTT is released.  That did not happen. Instead we see movement a full ~13 seconds after the RF is present. That the maximum displacement coincides with amplifier board max temperature is very suspect for thermal effects.

The big missing part of the test below is that I did not start the ADC soon enough to capture main power on. However, If you watch the video, you can see that there is no displacement from that event, just a steady rise in temperature beginning.

Obviously the test needs to be repeated many times. Those tests will not be video recorded and narrated, so I will be able to get the test done long before the amplifier board heats up the phase change heat sink too much. That way if there is no thrust/movement at all, then we can comfortably call that a null result.

« Last Edit: 08/14/2018 01:42 PM by Monomorphic »

Offline RERT

Ok. I tend to agree the delay on the deflection is too high for an RF emdrive effect. Do I recall you have a magnetic force calibration signal? Would be nice to see what an emdrive signal should really look like, subject to the damping and time constants of the rig.

A test with PTT never pressed might show that the pattern of movement without RF was similar to that with, reinforcing the thermal conclusion.

Does the rig have a control loop to lock in resonance? If not, people might argue that thermal effects could cause resonance drift, and indirectly cause the kind of delay in the LDS signal onset you saw.

Offline spupeng7

But these symmetries are not compatible and cannot be mathematically described if time is linear because what is synchronous in linear time varies with the origin your perspective. These symmetries can only be resolved if time is a complex function.
False, special relativity resolves this perfectly, and does not need complex numbers. In fact it is essentially a linear theory.

http://vixra.org/author/john_malcolm_newell
Have you made any progress since we last had this conversation? It doesn't sound like you are saying anything new, and the linked articles aren't new enough to have resolved the impasse we ended at. I don't see any need to repeat the same conversation we have already had.
meberbs,
progress! No, none of this constitutes progress yet but neither does engineering based on physics which is beyond question. Within that constraint the emdrive would never have been attempted at all. What I am asking is that folk consider the possibility that the energy exchange fundamental to the structure and interaction of all matter may be understandable. There is no need to wrap it in the mystery and superstition of quantum paradox when there is a seamless explanation that even a dunce like me can come up with  :)
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline spupeng7

(...)
Obviously the test needs to be repeated many times. Those tests will not be video recorded and narrated, so I will be able to get the test done long before the amplifier board heats up the phase change heat sink too much. That way if there is no thrust/movement at all, then we can comfortably call that a null result.
Thanks Monomorph,
these results are beautifully communicated by the jpeg's you include, could you add a date stamp to them as well so that we are completely clear as to which is which  :)
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline oyzw

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What was very convincing about Tajmar's work was that he could turn on a choke which essentially cut off all power to the frustrum, while still delivering power to the board. Despite that he still saw almost exactly the same effects. Onset was very rapid, and so thermal effects were not really an issue.

...could you run me through the tests you plan to run and the logic you will use to assert a definitive positive or negative result?

It is not very clear from the graph below, but I also have the ability to cut RF power to the cavity using the PTT (Push To Talk) function on the amplifier. Power is still being delivered to the amplifier even without the PTT button pressed. In the graph below the PTT is yellow and the RF is red. Power to the amplifier was on from before the graph starts because I was busy talking. The green line, which is the amplifier board temperature, is constantly rising from the moment power was turned on. Then when the PTT is pressed and RF is present, the board goes from ~8A idle to ~12A. That's not exactly how Tajmar does it because he can keep the board at full power while diverting the RF, but it's a lot better than not having the ability at all.

If there was fast response thrust, like that reported by NASA, then one would expect the LDS to begin moving almost immediately upon pressing the PTT and begin to return to zero when PTT is released.  That did not happen. Instead we see movement a full ~13 seconds after the RF is present. That the maximum displacement coincides with amplifier board max temperature is very suspect for thermal effects.

The big missing part of the test below is that I did not start the ADC soon enough to capture main power on. However, If you watch the video, you can see that there is no displacement from that event, just a steady rise in temperature beginning.

Obviously the test needs to be repeated many times. Those tests will not be video recorded and narrated, so I will be able to get the test done long before the amplifier board heats up the phase change heat sink too much. That way if there is no thrust/movement at all, then we can comfortably call that a null result.
Hello, my cavity, when do you start testing?

Offline oyzw

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What was very convincing about Tajmar's work was that he could turn on a choke which essentially cut off all power to the frustrum, while still delivering power to the board. Despite that he still saw almost exactly the same effects. Onset was very rapid, and so thermal effects were not really an issue.

...could you run me through the tests you plan to run and the logic you will use to assert a definitive positive or negative result?

It is not very clear from the graph below, but I also have the ability to cut RF power to the cavity using the PTT (Push To Talk) function on the amplifier. Power is still being delivered to the amplifier even without the PTT button pressed. In the graph below the PTT is yellow and the RF is red. Power to the amplifier was on from before the graph starts because I was busy talking. The green line, which is the amplifier board temperature, is constantly rising from the moment power was turned on. Then when the PTT is pressed and RF is present, the board goes from ~8A idle to ~12A. That's not exactly how Tajmar does it because he can keep the board at full power while diverting the RF, but it's a lot better than not having the ability at all.

If there was fast response thrust, like that reported by NASA, then one would expect the LDS to begin moving almost immediately upon pressing the PTT and begin to return to zero when PTT is released.  That did not happen. Instead we see movement a full ~13 seconds after the RF is present. That the maximum displacement coincides with amplifier board max temperature is very suspect for thermal effects.

The big missing part of the test below is that I did not start the ADC soon enough to capture main power on. However, If you watch the video, you can see that there is no displacement from that event, just a steady rise in temperature beginning.

Obviously the test needs to be repeated many times. Those tests will not be video recorded and narrated, so I will be able to get the test done long before the amplifier board heats up the phase change heat sink too much. That way if there is no thrust/movement at all, then we can comfortably call that a null result.
Derived from the thrust formula, consider that your cavity Q is only 5000, 7uN is the true thrust value. The cavity is deformed by heat, the resonance point is drifting, and when the temperature reaches a constant value, the thrust value shows a maximum value.

Online Monomorphic

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Does the rig have a control loop to lock in resonance? If not, people might argue that thermal effects could cause resonance drift, and indirectly cause the kind of delay in the LDS signal onset you saw.

At this point, the control loop is me. It is not difficult to maintain maximum return loss by manually tuning the frequency.  The resonance drift is not too fast that I can't keep up with it.  This is not ideal, and I would like to eventually create a custom interface for the signal generator. Unfortunately that requires somewhat advanced knowledge of LabView. Right now, I am a novice at best, but I haven't put much effort into it. 

Offline meberbs

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progress! No, none of this constitutes progress yet but neither does engineering based on physics which is beyond question. Within that constraint the emdrive would never have been attempted at all.
But claiming that standard physics has paradoxes in places it doesn't is anti-progress. It makes people waste time looking in known dead ends.

What I am asking is that folk consider the possibility that the energy exchange fundamental to the structure and interaction of all matter may be understandable. There is no need to wrap it in the mystery and superstition of quantum paradox when there is a seamless explanation that even a dunce like me can come up with  :)
It is understandable, and doesn't need quantum for the explanation. Your statement about photons and zero travel time from their perspective is already in special relativity. Since distance also collapses to 0, you can't actually use that reference frame mathematically, just as a thought experiment. (Also quantum doesn't have actual paradoxes, just very, very unintuitive behavior)

Also, to be blunt, you haven't come up with a "seamless" explanation of anything. I am not trying to discourage you from thinking about these things, but to point out when you are going in a roundabout direction to say something physics already says, or solve a problem or paradox that doesn't actually exist.

Online Monomorphic

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Hello, my cavity, when do you start testing?

The cavity got a fresh coat of paint last night. This is so we can use an infrared camera to pick up resonant mode shape on exterior surface. I also used brasso to clean the interior surfaces. I have a few things left to do:

1. Fabricate two antennas.
2. Build the bracket for mounting the cavity to the torsional pendulum
3. Tune the cavity
4. Re-balance the pendulum for any difference between the mass of the 3D printed cavity and the solid copper.

Then we should be ready to go! I'm shooting for the weekend.

« Last Edit: 08/16/2018 02:43 AM by Monomorphic »

Offline oyzw

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Hello, my cavity, when do you start testing?

The cavity got a fresh coat of paint last night. This is so I can use an infrared camera to pick up resonant mode shape on exterior surface. I also used brasso to clean the interior surfaces. I have a few things left to do:

1. Fabricate two antennas.
2. Build the bracket for mounting the cavity to the torsional pendulum
3. Tune the cavity
4. Re-balance the pendulum for any difference between the mass of the 3D printed cavity and the solid copper.

Then we should be ready to go! I'm shooting for the weekend.
Very beautiful device. My friend and I re-calculated the calculation of the electromagnetic radiation pressure, which should be very helpful for the cavity design. If the thrust can be measured this time, I can use it to verify the validity of the calculation formula.

Offline spupeng7

progress! No, none of this constitutes progress yet but neither does engineering based on physics which is beyond question. Within that constraint the emdrive would never have been attempted at all.
But claiming that standard physics has paradoxes in places it doesn't is anti-progress. It makes people waste time looking in known dead ends.

What I am asking is that folk consider the possibility that the energy exchange fundamental to the structure and interaction of all matter may be understandable. There is no need to wrap it in the mystery and superstition of quantum paradox when there is a seamless explanation that even a dunce like me can come up with  :)
It is understandable, and doesn't need quantum for the explanation. Your statement about photons and zero travel time from their perspective is already in special relativity. Since distance also collapses to 0, you can't actually use that reference frame mathematically, just as a thought experiment. (Also quantum doesn't have actual paradoxes, just very, very unintuitive behavior)

Also, to be blunt, you haven't come up with a "seamless" explanation of anything. I am not trying to discourage you from thinking about these things, but to point out when you are going in a roundabout direction to say something physics already says, or solve a problem or paradox that doesn't actually exist.
Thanks meberbs,
       it was Richard Feynman who said, if you think you understand it then you don't, or something equally silly. The separate mathematical approaches of quantum mechanics and relativity are accepted as being incompatible by too many sources to list, let alone quote.
       Yes, I agree that the solution is already present in special relativity but what I am proposing is a little different. I think we have misinterpreted separation in time as; distance between two points separate in space but synchronous in linear (scalar) time. That distance is not mathematically defined for more than one perspective, which is why I included the Tomonaga quote. Complex time, wherein separate but synchronous points are possible from all perspectives, allows not only mathematical resolution but also allows the translation of energy (momentum for example) without it having to exist in-between those points.
       It is the description of that energy in mid translation, within linear time, which raises quantum paradox and prevents our understanding of the communication of energy between the inside surface of a closed conductive frustum and the distant universe. I have taken great care to spell out why this is possible in my vixra contributions and I think better physicists than me should be able to describe how this is possible, if they can grasp the essence of time as an inherently complex dimension. I bring it to this forum because this is the only place that I know of where such an alternate view of energy might even be considered.
       Please accept this as a compliment, as I accept your questions. Since distance, in my opinion, does collapse to 0 at the speed of light, then you can use that reference frame mathematically because math has been developed as a method of analysis of the real, as well as its complex conjugate :)
« Last Edit: 08/16/2018 05:35 AM by spupeng7 »
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline meberbs

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       what was it Feynman who said, if you think you understand it then you don't, or something equally silly. The separate mathematical approaches of quantum mechanics and relativity are accepted as being incompatible by too many sources to list, let alone quote.
Since there are exactly zero knowledgeable sources that claim that, a list of them is trivial. Quantum mechanics is generally studied in the non-relativistic limit, since it is sufficiently unintuitive on its own. The full relativistic version is known as Quantum ElectroDynamics (QED).

       Yes, I agree that the solution is already present in special relativity but what I am proposing is a little different. I think we have misinterpreted separation in time as; distance between two points separate in space but synchronous in linear (scalar) time. That distance is not mathematically defined for more than one perspective, which is why I included the Tomonaga quote.
What you are looking for is the term "proper distance." You aren't discussing new or different concepts here.

What is possible is that complex time, wherein separate but synchronous points are possible from all perspectives, allows not only mathematical resolution but also allows the translation of energy (momentum for example) without it having to exist in-between those points.
As we concluded our previous conversation with, you have not figured out a meaningful way to talk about "complex time" while writing down even the most basic of dynamics equations. Your assertions that this magically solves any problems whatsoever is baseless and a waste of time.

I have taken great care to spell out why this is possible in my vixra contributions
No, you haven't. Go look up our previous discussion of this, since you seem to have forgotten.

       Please accept this as a compliment, as I accept your questions.
Since you are in actuality rejecting my questions, does that mean I should take it as an insult? We ended a previous discussion on this topic with you saying that you would work on writing down complex time in such a way that it could be used to do anything, yet here we are again, with you claiming your papers have everything needed for understanding, claiming holes in physics where there are none, even while admitting that you have nothing new to add, so there is no purpose in your posts.

A reminder of what you said:
Quote from: spupeng7
I certainly will attempt to "figure out a way to write down dynamics equations that don't break when you use complex time" as you suggest, my argument for gravity as an electrical effect relies on it.

Since distance, in my opinion, does collapse to 0 at the speed of light, then you can use that reference frame mathematically because math has been developed as a method of analysis of the real, as well as its complex conjugate :)

No, you cannot use it mathematically, since all calculations will boil down to 0/0. If you allow such calculations, you can easily prove that 1=0, and all results are therefore meaningless. Your statement about complex conjugates at the end is a non-sequiter, which even on its own does not make sense (the complex conjugate of a real number is itself, not a complex number).

Offline Peter Lauwer

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Does the rig have a control loop to lock in resonance? If not, people might argue that thermal effects could cause resonance drift, and indirectly cause the kind of delay in the LDS signal onset you saw.

At this point, the control loop is me. It is not difficult to maintain maximum return loss by manually tuning the frequency.  The resonance drift is not too fast that I can't keep up with it.  This is not ideal, and I would like to eventually create a custom interface for the signal generator. Unfortunately that requires somewhat advanced knowledge of LabView. Right now, I am a novice at best, but I haven't put much effort into it.
The first thing I plan to change in the LabView control of the SynthNV is that you can use up and down arrows for frequency up and down. So you can keep your view on the screen with the output signals. That should be fairly easy, but I don't have the right version of LabView yet.
For me, no activities with the EMDrive in the coming weeks, going on vacation first (yes, life can be though).
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.    Richard Feynman

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