Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 11  (Read 45506 times)

Offline LowerAtmosphere

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LowerAtmosphere -

I was meaning something quite prosaic really, which may actually be embedded in the mode shape simulations seen here, though I suspect not.

A frustrum in resonance has wall currents. The current densities are not uniform, in a gross sense: by which I mean that the current round the sides of the frustrum might be very different to the current in the end caps. If I'm understanding right, the mutual Lorentz forces from these currents are meant to be in balance, producing zero net force.

But as the current densities differ, ohmic heating differs - that's why mode shapes have been viewed with a thermal camera.

When copper gets hot, it's resistance increases, and you would expect the pattern of current flows to change. If they stayed the same, power dissipation would rise, and that's fixed by the input power to the frustrum. So that's a different current pattern to the one which previously had no net Lorentz force, and one which is slowly changing to boot.

At this point intuition fails me: but I would guess that COMSOL might be able to simulate resistance changing with temperature, and temperature with current.
Intuition is useless for resistivity and temperature since it is a nonlinear effect. Earlier we investigated whether the sawtooth like thrust profile was related to heating. I strongly agree COMSOL would be helpful though I think an experiment with periodically placed antennas/imaging points would be better to gain an experimental view of how the field behaves in the wall. My theory is that there are nullpoints which cause each segment to become a quasi-ion and perhaps it is the repulsion between each segment which is then relevant. Alternatively it could also be time-to-wall. Also quite perplexing is the oscillation of the internal field. I imagine that the rate of oscillation is not constant throughout the interior. The copper sidewalls ought to form magnetic dipoles when excited sufficiently, but the internal oscillation and splatter may lead to misalignment. Earlier I considered some sort of momentum transfer occuring between the various modal peaks and surrounding field lines but this supposes a plasma based model of the internal atmosphere. The walls must be the solution to the phenomenon since they define the boundary conditions and form discrete segments (which in turn are weakly coupled to both endcaps and the internal field). Perhaps a simulation without an internal field is needed? We already know (from other sims) the typical vectors and orientation of the evanescent waves/absorbed waves in the walls. We should try to see it evolve over time and add up the wall segment potentials in order to see if a net force occurs along the wall. The easy part is that we can approximate it with a 2D sheet but wrap the x axis around to simulate the cone. Or, we could try MHD style fluid mechanics in the wall like Dr. Rodal suggested, though this would produce more eddies than actually occur, I assume. Intuitively, a wall segment with higher charge density repels one with lower charge density, more surface area means more absorption, however, less field compression. The higher density modal peak are in the upper cavity thus the upper cavity should have more momentum? In conclusion: the evanescent/transmitted/absorbed waves in the wall need to be mapped out properly.

Offline LowerAtmosphere

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Theoretical calculation for ideal cavities that fail to predict several real experimental phenomena, as well as discrete and incomplete simulations involving Maxwell equations only, can't account for any propellantless thrust. This is true.

However as Rodal also pointed out many times on these boards, such calculations and simulations fail to take into account the possibility that the EmDrive is not a closed system. If there is any kind of field propulsion making the EmDrive an open system, propellantless propulsion (not reactionless propulsion!) becomes non-impossible. No current calculation or EM simulation based on Maxwell laws only can predict such an effect.

On the other hand I agree that Shawyer's simple explanation about the radiation pressure imbalance between the two end plates as the cause of thrust does not correctly fall in the true definition of an "open system".

But Mach effects, quantised inertia, scalar–tensor theories -among others- qualify for the possibility of an open system and a field-effect propulsion for the EmDrive.
I was responding to TT's post where he incorrectly represents the results of standard electrodynamics. I would appreciate it if you stopped misrepresenting the context of what I was saying, obviously I was not talking about a situation where there is some background that the emDrive pushes off. Your tangent here is a waste of everyone's time, and can only serve to confuse anyone who doesn't know better about whether or not TT has a point. (Based on likes, at least one person was tricked by his non-response that literally ignored what I had already said.)

We clearly are in agreement about the basic physics here, so can we just agree that we are in violent agreement, and move on to something useful?
Meberbs, if you wish to have us laud you or agree then back up your points with mathematics not attempts to bully the opposing party into agreement. On behalf of all the "tangent"* creators, we thank you.

*Tangents... in physics? A good joke!

Offline meberbs

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Meberbs, if you wish to have us laud you or agree then back up your points with mathematics not attempts to bully the opposing party into agreement. On behalf of all the "tangent"* creators, we thank you.

*Tangents... in physics? A good joke!
I did, I posted a link to a page covered in mathematics. I have provided the math to back up what I am saying whenever relevant. If you go read my original reply to TT in this chain, you will see I referenced math I did in one of my first posts on this forum. I am not bullying anyone into agreement, just pointing out facts, and when others are stating contradictions.

I don't care about being "lauded." There is no requirement to agree with me either, but at least in this section I don't post much that I am not confident in, that isn't backed up with facts. Disagreeing with me therefore usually indicates a misunderstanding/miscommunication or being wrong, though I can and do make mistakes (and try to admit it if I notice, or someone points out a specific issue)

Offline RERT

Jim - any experiment which shows data which breaks physics gets to justify writing new laws. The topic of this forum is em drive, not water engines. If you don't think I'm interested in following the data, you need to review my posts. I hope it's real, at the moment it seems probably false, in my opinion. If you think I'm Insufficiently outraged at the thought that laws might have to be updated for EMdrive, if it works, I'm sorry I can't help you.

Offline rq3

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what does it take to reflect a microwave? A metal? Or will another microwave reflect a microwave?

Microwave photons do not reflect nor bounce.

Instead the photon impacts an orbital electron, is absorbed and almost immediatley re emitted. If the impact and emit events are elastic, ie there is no momentum nor energy transfer between photon and atom, the emitted photon freq is the same as the impacted photon freq. If the event is nonelastic, ie momentum and energy are exchanged between photon and atom, then the freq of the emitted photon will not match that of the impacted photon.

EmDrive acceleration is the result of assymetric nonelastic impact and emit events where the gained accelerated mass' momentum and KE is sourced from lost photon momentum and energy, which causes the photon emitted freq to decrease. As the photons lose monentum to the gained accelerated mass momentum, CofM is conserved. Likewise gained acceelerated mass KE is sourced from loss photon energy and CofE is conserved.

Question to be experimentally proved is can a tapered resonant cavity generate an assymetric force? If it can be shown to happen, then it follows why and how CofM and CofE are conserved without expelling mass. Ie the wavelength lengthened photons, with lower momentum, are what carries away the required Newton 3 momentum gain of the accelerated mass.

Would be interesting for someone to ray trace an averaged photon pathway, from say big end plate to small end plate and back to big end plate, in a TE013 resonant cavity. Some may be very surprised what that exercise will reveal. Can share that for a round trip there will be 8 side wall & end plate impact and emit events.

Even more interesting to work out the radiation pressure that will be generated at each impact and emit event. Thoughts the radiation pressure will be the same at each impact and emit event site are very wrong. Likewise thoughts that the overall force will be zero are also very wrong.

Such a simple exercise but after so many years, as far as I know, no one here has ever actually done the calculations but instead made statement, without any proof, the overall force would be zero.

So two guys wearing inelastic base-ball gloves toss base balls back and forth, in a funnel shaped can in free space (no outside influence), other than the third guy tossing base balls through a small window into the funnel shaped can makes the can accelerate in a preferred direction.

Assume anything you like. Wall reflection of base ball mass. Wall absorption of base ball mass. Base balls changing mass from catch to toss. Base balls reflecting, sticking, or anything else on end walls or side walls. Base balls changing mass in any of the above conditions, with energy being conserved.

There is no preferred thrust direction. It's been years, and still waiting for your spinning EmDrive on a wooden plank suspended from fishing line. Saying "just you wait and see" indeed makes me wait and see at just how gullible folks can be.

Truly, I expected anti-gravity cars by now per your claims (see thread 3, and my prediction. Only 6 years left. How time flies, even as EmDrives don't).
« Last Edit: 07/10/2018 12:36 AM by rq3 »

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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Back to stealth mode and being very busy.

Somewhat OT, Shell, but... I hope you're ok !

Time ago I heard about your health issues, I just hope your "stealth mode" is just due to some personal business and that you're fine

All the best.

Offline SeeShells

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Back to stealth mode and being very busy.

Somewhat OT, Shell, but... I hope you're ok !

Time ago I heard about your health issues, I just hope your "stealth mode" is just due to some personal business and that you're fine

All the best.

I'm fine, much better, thanks for asking. True I have been making up lost time in research, personal work and haven't posted much.

Look forward to the time to read NSF. One post perked my interest. It was a reference to the comment that Dr. Rodal stated several times the EM drive must interact outside world and cannot be a closed thruster. I've also stated the very things. Honestly, not sure who posted it first (doesn't matter really) but for the drive to work with universal conservation laws it has to. Either by the Woodward Mach Effect or even Dr. White's QV Pilot Wave theory or something else involving a mix of both.

Very slowly it's happening. Work by EagleWorks Labs and Dr. White is quiet and Dr. Woodward's team is just now preparing to garner more concrete data on the MEGA. March is buried in his new lab doing his thing (I have a feeling we will be impressed with Paul's work). Jamie is setting the bar for his work. Me? I've been working towards building a cloud chamber because nobody has done one and it's sorely needed.

Jokes on having my head in the clouds are welcome...   ::)

My very Best,
Shell

Slight edit...

« Last Edit: 07/10/2018 04:51 PM by SeeShells »

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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I'm fine, much better, thanks for asking. True I have been making up lost time in research, personal work and haven't posted much.

Happy to hear this :)

Look forward to the time to read NSF. One post perked my interest. It was a reference to the comment that Dr. Rodal stated several times the EM drive must interact outside world and cannot be a closed thruster. I've also stated the very things. Honestly, not sure who posted it first (doesn't matter really) but for the drive to work with universal conservation laws it has to. Either by the Woodward Mach Effect or even Dr. White's QV Pilot Wave theory or something else involving a mix of both.

Agreed, otherwise we should assume that the EMdrive (or the MET) works due to "invisible fairies generating the thrust" :)

Very slowly it's happening. Work by EagleWorks Labs and Dr. White is quiet and Dr. Woodward's team is just now preparing to garner more concrete data on the MEGA. March is buried in his new lab doing his thing (I have a feeling we will be impressed with Paul's work). Jamie is setting the bar for his work. Me? I've been working towards building a cloud chamber because nobody has done one and it's sorely needed.

I just hope that they (or someone else on their behalf) will post some informations/links about the progress, either positive or negative, no problem with that, all in all, when it comes to experimenting stuff the greatest mistake one may make is  to blindly believe that it works, despite any test results, so... well, it ends when it ends, till then, tests, experiments and hope goes on :)

As for the cloud chamber, if you build one big enough, "monomorphic" may even pick his rig, bring it to your chamber and start some tests there :) !!

Jokes on having my head in the clouds are welcome...   ::)

LOL

Thank you again for taking the time to answer, all the best
« Last Edit: 07/11/2018 12:28 PM by ThatOtherGuy »

Offline Ricvil

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My theory:
There are two localized resonances, with one on each side of flat end plates cavity.
One localized resonance has majority negative pressure on one end plate surface( but total net forces equals zero over all cavity surface ).
Te other localized resonance has positive pressure on the other end plate (but again, total net forces equals zero over all cavity surface ).
The localized modes arises from frequency shifts of natural modes of propagation of conical waveguide, turned on a closed cavity by the flat end plates a la "ghost modes".
All system act like a dimer system (with gain and loss), where the photons of one resonance TUNNELS to the other resonance(instanton like tunneling between two different vacuums).
The tunneling causes the non zero net forces acting on cavity.
Ps: The Tx3xx "mode" is suspect in this theory.
« Last Edit: 07/13/2018 01:11 PM by Ricvil »

Offline saucyjack

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UPDATE: It appears emdrive.wiki has been dehosted??? Latest archive: https://web.archive.org/web/*/emdrive.wiki

If dehosted permanently this would be a huge loss. I know many of us contributed to it.

Hi all-
I'm back from a short vacation but can assure you, the wiki still lives!  I forgot who registered the domain emdrive.wiki, but they appear to have let that registration lapse.   But you can still get to the site at http://emdrive.echothis.com.

Offline LowerAtmosphere

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My theory:
There are two localized resonances, with one on each side of flat end plates cavity.
Please explain this further. The resonance is occurring inside the endplate and this is reconciled via the standing wave? Perhaps illustrate your idea with vector arrows or some other diagram which shows us exactly how you believe the endplates are behaving. Negative pressure due to squeezed vacuum or? More details please. Thank you.

Offline Monomorphic

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Ps: The Tx3xx "mode" is suspect in this theory.

In addition to Tx3xx, perhaps TM11x could also be a candidate. Using the same naming convention, I would expect TM11x could have been labelled Tx11x.
« Last Edit: 07/13/2018 11:45 PM by Monomorphic »

Offline Ricvil

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My theory:
There are two localized resonances, with one on each side of flat end plates cavity.
Please explain this further. The resonance is occurring inside the endplate and this is reconciled via the standing wave? Perhaps illustrate your idea with vector arrows or some other diagram which shows us exactly how you believe the endplates are behaving. Negative pressure due to squeezed vacuum or? More details please. Thank you.

Not inside the endplate, but close the endplates.
Look the Tx3xx figure above. One resonance is a TE mode at one side, and the other resonance is a TM mode at the other side.
These resonances are better explained as localized bound states rather standing waves.
  I think these resonances are confined modes,  resulting of a mixing of PEC mirror reflection at endplates, and reflection by cutoff frequency atenuation along the "tapered conical waveguide".
In fact, I think these two resonances are two  "ghost modes" of a "tapered conical waveguide", where the trigger "disturbance/imperfection" of these "ghost modes" are just the flat endplates.
The flat endplates are not natural as boundary conditions for the natural spherical front waves inside a tapered conical waveguide.
Each flat endplate, as a electrical mirror, produces an equivalent junction of simmetric pieces of tapered conical waveguide, in  "><" or  "<>" shapes.
These "equivalent electrical junctions" are the disturbances wich triggers the ghost-modes.

The TE mode always produces a endplate  pushing force (positive pressure).
The TM mode will produce a force on the endplate atractive or repulsive as result of balance of normal electric field (atractive) and tangent magnetic field ( repulsive),
By curiosity, the figure attached is from a TM mode at 1, 97 GHz ( very close the frequency of "Tx3xx mode")
The figure was copied from link below:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41732.0
« Last Edit: 07/17/2018 01:55 PM by Ricvil »

Offline Star One

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From Seeker.



German scientists have just tested NASA’s EM drive... Does it work now
« Last Edit: 07/14/2018 11:42 AM by Star One »

Offline Monomorphic

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From Seeker.

German scientists have just tested NASA’s EM drive... Does it work now

I stopped watching when she said the force is most likely due to the "interaction of the metal drive with the earth's magnetic field."   They even show a graphic!   The paper clearly stated the interaction was likely with the wires, not the copper frustum.   

« Last Edit: 07/14/2018 12:16 PM by Monomorphic »

Offline Star One

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From Seeker.

German scientists have just tested NASA’s EM drive... Does it work now

I stopped watching when she said the force is most likely due to the "interaction of the metal drive with the earth's magnetic field."   They even show a graphic!   The paper clearly stated the interaction was likely with the wires, not the copper frustum.

I posted it because Seeker has huge reach into the public, their videos get into the millions of views so for many this will be the received wisdom on the matter.

Offline Star-Drive

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Back to stealth mode and being very busy.

Somewhat OT, Shell, but... I hope you're ok !

Time ago I heard about your health issues, I just hope your "stealth mode" is just due to some personal business and that you're fine

All the best.

I'm fine, much better, thanks for asking. True I have been making up lost time in research, personal work and haven't posted much.

Look forward to the time to read NSF. One post perked my interest. It was a reference to the comment that Dr. Rodal stated several times the EM drive must interact outside world and cannot be a closed thruster. I've also stated the very things. Honestly, not sure who posted it first (doesn't matter really) but for the drive to work with universal conservation laws it has to. Either by the Woodward Mach Effect or even Dr. White's QV Pilot Wave theory or something else involving a mix of both.

Very slowly it's happening. Work by EagleWorks Labs and Dr. White is quiet and Dr. Woodward's team is just now preparing to garner more concrete data on the MEGA. March is buried in his new lab doing his thing (I have a feeling we will be impressed with Paul's work). Jamie is setting the bar for his work. Me? I've been working towards building a cloud chamber because nobody has done one and it's sorely needed.

Jokes on having my head in the clouds are welcome...   ::)

My very Best,
Shell

Slight edit...


Michelle:

How large a cloud chamber are you planning to or are you building now?  The last time I built a cloud chamber it was back in my 1965 high school physics lab where we built a cloud chamber out of a glass Erlenmeyer flask with 70% rubbing alcohol and dry ice at the bottom that we could then pull a partial vacuum on it with a bicycle hand pump.  We could see various decay products coming off a uranium sample at the bottom of the chamber that our physics teach Mr. Eblen supplied for the experiment.

"March is buried in his new lab doing his thing (I have a feeling we will be impressed with Paul's work)."

Sadly a lot less work has been accomplished in my home lab of late than I would have liked due to my right arm bicep tendon injury last April that I experienced while trying to lift a 215 pound cabinet in the lab, and the lack of funds needed for lab upgrades and builds due to other more pressing family commitments.  Thus it appears that I will have little to show when Sue and I go up to Estes Park for this coming September 2018 SSI Mach-Effect workshop.  However, Woodward and Fearn should have some interesting new experiments to talk about.  Hope to see your there.

Best, Paul M. 
Star-Drive

Offline SeeShells

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Back to stealth mode and being very busy.

Somewhat OT, Shell, but... I hope you're ok !

Time ago I heard about your health issues, I just hope your "stealth mode" is just due to some personal business and that you're fine

All the best.

I'm fine, much better, thanks for asking. True I have been making up lost time in research, personal work and haven't posted much.

Look forward to the time to read NSF. One post perked my interest. It was a reference to the comment that Dr. Rodal stated several times the EM drive must interact outside world and cannot be a closed thruster. I've also stated the very things. Honestly, not sure who posted it first (doesn't matter really) but for the drive to work with universal conservation laws it has to. Either by the Woodward Mach Effect or even Dr. White's QV Pilot Wave theory or something else involving a mix of both.

Very slowly it's happening. Work by EagleWorks Labs and Dr. White is quiet and Dr. Woodward's team is just now preparing to garner more concrete data on the MEGA. March is buried in his new lab doing his thing (I have a feeling we will be impressed with Paul's work). Jamie is setting the bar for his work. Me? I've been working towards building a cloud chamber because nobody has done one and it's sorely needed.

Jokes on having my head in the clouds are welcome...   ::)

My very Best,
Shell

Slight edit...


Michelle:

How large a cloud chamber are you planning to or are you building now?  The last time I built a cloud chamber it was back in my 1965 high school physics lab where we built a cloud chamber out of a glass Erlenmeyer flask with 70% rubbing alcohol and dry ice at the bottom that we could then pull a partial vacuum on it with a bicycle hand pump.  We could see various decay products coming off a uranium sample at the bottom of the chamber that our physics teach Mr. Eblen supplied for the experiment.

"March is buried in his new lab doing his thing (I have a feeling we will be impressed with Paul's work)."

Sadly a lot less work has been accomplished in my home lab of late than I would have liked due to my right arm bicep tendon injury last April that I experienced while trying to lift a 215 pound cabinet in the lab, and the lack of funds needed for lab upgrades and builds due to other more pressing family commitments.  Thus it appears that I will have little to show when Sue and I go up to Estes Park for this coming September 2018 SSI Mach-Effect workshop.  However, Woodward and Fearn should have some interesting new experiments to talk about.  Hope to see your there.

Best, Paul M.
Hi Paul,

So sorry to hear about your bicep causing issues. They take time to heal I understand. Healing thoughts.

You have that right, hardware is very costly. I try to keep my eyes peeled on Ebay for deals.

I got my design for the cloud chamber from.

and it's the size I want to do.

If all things go right (funds and such) I'll see you and Sue this September. It will be good to reconnect again.

My Very Best,
Shell


Offline TheTraveller

Roger Shawyer conducted a seminar at Dresden Technical University last week and has released some new info:

EmDrive Propulsion
Roger Shawyer, SPR Ltd
Technical University Dresden
11th July 2018

as attached

Would be interesting to know what was the reaction from Martin Tajmar and his team?
« Last Edit: 07/17/2018 12:44 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline TheTraveller

Roger Shawyer conducted a seminar at Dresden Technical University last week and has released some new info:

EmDrive Propulsion
Roger Shawyer, SPR Ltd
Technical University Dresden
11th July 2018

as attached

Would be interesting to know what was the reaction from Martin Tajmar and his team?

Interesting that in slide 29, 1st line, Roger is claiming the USAF/NSA Flight Qualified the SPR designed Flight Thruster.

PLUS in the 2nd line Roger claims the USAF/NSA have agreed with SPR on the theory behind why the EmDrive works.

Fairly major stuff.

« Last Edit: 07/17/2018 01:27 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

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