
So, if we have all photons with same energy, and we have a asymmetrical density of modes with different orders, then we have a asymmetrical distribuition of moment along the axis of symmetry of cavity, and we have a net force along this axis when all the photons are reflected on the cavity surface.
So, if we have all photons with same energy, and we have a asymmetrical density of modes with different orders, then we have a asymmetrical distribuition of moment along the axis of symmetry of cavity, and we have a net force along this axis when all the photons are reflected on the cavity surface.This is just the original logic that Shawyer used, and is wrong for the same reason. Any changes in the patterns along the axis of the cavity are due to the changing size/shape of the sidewalls. The interactions with the sidewalls therefore account for any differences between the forces on the ends, and the total result adds up to zero.
Conservation of momentum is inherent in (relativistic) classical electromagnetism, so any potential explanation needs to start with something different than classical electromagnetism. (With the catch-22 that it still needs to somehow be able to explain all of the existing features of electromagnetism.)
So, if we have all photons with same energy, and we have a asymmetrical density of modes with different orders, then we have a asymmetrical distribuition of moment along the axis of symmetry of cavity, and we have a net force along this axis when all the photons are reflected on the cavity surface.This is just the original logic that Shawyer used, and is wrong for the same reason. Any changes in the patterns along the axis of the cavity are due to the changing size/shape of the sidewalls. The interactions with the sidewalls therefore account for any differences between the forces on the ends, and the total result adds up to zero.
Conservation of momentum is inherent in (relativistic) classical electromagnetism, so any potential explanation needs to start with something different than classical electromagnetism. (With the catch-22 that it still needs to somehow be able to explain all of the existing features of electromagnetism.)I don't wrote "forces at the ends", I've wrote a net force considering all cavity surface.
The asymmetry will ocurrs along the cavity's axis of symmetry, so any reflection must be considered, at any point off all surface.
In Shawyer case there is no change of mode order along the axis of symmetry.
So, if we have all photons with same energy, and we have a asymmetrical density of modes with different orders, then we have a asymmetrical distribuition of moment along the axis of symmetry of cavity, and we have a net force along this axis when all the photons are reflected on the cavity surface.This is just the original logic that Shawyer used, and is wrong for the same reason. Any changes in the patterns along the axis of the cavity are due to the changing size/shape of the sidewalls. The interactions with the sidewalls therefore account for any differences between the forces on the ends, and the total result adds up to zero.
Conservation of momentum is inherent in (relativistic) classical electromagnetism, so any potential explanation needs to start with something different than classical electromagnetism. (With the catch-22 that it still needs to somehow be able to explain all of the existing features of electromagnetism.)I don't wrote "forces at the ends", I've wrote a net force considering all cavity surface.
The asymmetry will ocurrs along the cavity's axis of symmetry, so any reflection must be considered, at any point off all surface.
In Shawyer case there is no change of mode order along the axis of symmetry.http://www.gregegan.net/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html
So, if we have all photons with same energy, and we have a asymmetrical density of modes with different orders, then we have a asymmetrical distribuition of moment along the axis of symmetry of cavity, and we have a net force along this axis when all the photons are reflected on the cavity surface.This is just the original logic that Shawyer used, and is wrong for the same reason. Any changes in the patterns along the axis of the cavity are due to the changing size/shape of the sidewalls. The interactions with the sidewalls therefore account for any differences between the forces on the ends, and the total result adds up to zero.
Conservation of momentum is inherent in (relativistic) classical electromagnetism, so any potential explanation needs to start with something different than classical electromagnetism. (With the catch-22 that it still needs to somehow be able to explain all of the existing features of electromagnetism.)I don't wrote "forces at the ends", I've wrote a net force considering all cavity surface.
The asymmetry will ocurrs along the cavity's axis of symmetry, so any reflection must be considered, at any point off all surface.
In Shawyer case there is no change of mode order along the axis of symmetry.There is only one mode shape within the cavity! It doesn't matter at all if the shape is conical or trombone like.
Regarding the forces due to electromagnetism please check:
http://www.gregegan.net/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html
I don't wrote "forces at the ends", I've wrote a net force considering all cavity surface.
In Shawyer case there is no change of mode order along the axis of symmetry.
I don't wrote "forces at the ends", I've wrote a net force considering all cavity surface.Specifically you wrote "change of propagation constant, and optical momentum, along the cavity axis of symmetry." This implies that the change in momentum is not being balanced by the forces on the walls, but since it is balanced according to the very theory that predicts the mode shapes.In Shawyer case there is no change of mode order along the axis of symmetry.This is getting into what I wrote in my last response to OnlyMe. There are an infinite number of variations you can propose, but you need to provide a good reason that your proposal is new and worth investigating. Experimental data is now very weak as a reason for any emDrive related concept. Your current theoretical proposal is little more than a handwaving "but this mode shape looks a little qualitatively different." This does nothing to change the fact that conservation of momentum is inherent.
And no, really, there is just one shape in the cavity as long as it is driven with a single frequency at resonance. There have been some modes found that due to cavity shapes appear as a cross between what is called TE or TM in constant area applications. These are still single modes, despite the variations in shape across space.
The momentum needs be conserved, and I'm just count with it.
The momentum needs be conserved, and I'm just count with it.If the momentum is conserved, either the device doesn't work, or something is carrying the momentum away. None of your posts are describing anything carrying the momentum away so that leaves "doesn't work."
The rest of your post discusses a lot of advanced terms, none of which change the facts involved.
Also, you claim that all "with thrust" tests have involved a specific type of resonance, but there is no way you actually have the data to back that up, given things like the lack of good data from Shawyer. Since most (if not all depending on your perspective) of the tests ever done have since been shown by better test equipment to have thrust due to various thermal, magnetic or other errors, it is unclear which tests you are picking as "with thrust" to make your claims.
(...)Personal attacks such as accusations of poor intent should be taken to the moderator.This sentence is a perfect example of itself, and on its own is grounds for deletion of the whole post. (I would report to moderator, but don't like making the mods read this thread)
Also,I cannot fathom their logic one bit. At risk of sounding rude, it matters not how many tripple spin mathematical backflips we do,Saying that you don't understand something and then therefore concluding that it doesn't answer your questions is more than a bit inappropriate. You can ask for clarification, but outright dismissal for your own lack of understanding is inappropriate.
Your argument is weak!
Any system under action of a net force, or will accelerate (if it is free to do it) ,
or will deformate (under influence of an obstacle) until reach a equilibrium state, and in both conditions the momentum is conserved.
I accept change "with thrust" to "initially reported with thrust",
yes, I agree that we should not subject anyone to discussion in this style. There is, however, a big difference between not understanding an argument and disagreeing with its logic. You have not answered my question as to how matter is supposed to interact with empty space, maybe I have not framed it adequately.
papers which are forever beyond my ken.
Hi lovers and denyers of emdrives.
I've found a path to describe a dissipative loss of thust effect.
I will explain.
Any possible thrust from a Emdrive cavity must begin as a result of an interaction between the electromagnetic field and conducting electrons on internal surface of cavity.
At the frequency of operation the conducting electrons envolved are localized at thin layer of skin depth.
So, any mechanism of thrust will act first on conducting electrons in skin depth trying producing a charge polarization on internal surface of cavity.
But this polarization will not survive because the electrons can find a path of discharge out of skin depth layer, producing a ohmic loss.
The walls of cavity are too thick if compared with skin depth.
How to overcome this situation?
Monomorphic and others already reported a "strange high absortion" under some configurations of resonance excitation.
Any anomalous external magnetic field was observed during tests?
Hi lovers and denyers of emdrives.
I've found a path to describe a dissipative loss of thust effect.
I will explain.
Any possible thrust from a Emdrive cavity must begin as a result of an interaction between the electromagnetic field and conducting electrons on internal surface of cavity.
At the frequency of operation the conducting electrons envolved are localized at thin layer of skin depth.
So, any mechanism of thrust will act first on conducting electrons in skin depth trying producing a charge polarization on internal surface of cavity.
But this polarization will not survive because the electrons can find a path of discharge out of skin depth layer, producing a ohmic loss.
The walls of cavity are too thick if compared with skin depth.
How to overcome this situation?
Monomorphic and others already reported a "strange high absortion" under some configurations of resonance excitation.
Any anomalous external magnetic field was observed during tests?Not observed but introduced: Eagle Works initially used a magnetic damper based on neodymium magnets near the cavity... They did some magnetic measurements with a probe around the frustum but this was not documented (info by Paul Mach). Kind of non reciprocal effects based on this has been discussed a while back.
Hi lovers and denyers of emdrives.
I've found a path to describe a dissipative loss of thust effect.
I will explain.
Any possible thrust from a Emdrive cavity must begin as a result of an interaction between the electromagnetic field and conducting electrons on internal surface of cavity.
At the frequency of operation the conducting electrons envolved are localized at thin layer of skin depth.
So, any mechanism of thrust will act first on conducting electrons in skin depth trying producing a charge polarization on internal surface of cavity.
But this polarization will not survive because the electrons can find a path of discharge out of skin depth layer, producing a ohmic loss.
The walls of cavity are too thick if compared with skin depth.
How to overcome this situation?
Monomorphic and others already reported a "strange high absortion" under some configurations of resonance excitation.
Any anomalous external magnetic field was observed during tests?Not observed but introduced: Eagle Works initially used a magnetic damper based on neodymium magnets near the cavity... They did some magnetic measurements with a probe around the frustum but this was not documented (info by Paul Mach). Kind of non reciprocal effects based on this has been discussed a while back.Thank's X_RaY.
I think if Eagle Works was expecting by simulations, or had observed an external magnetic field.
This simulations in yours last post, appears indicating a try to find an excitation of cavity by inverse path.
They had simulated the response of a cavity with 0.035 thick walls under a dipole excitation of 1 Hertz.
I think they try to test reciprocity theorem with negative results.
Hi lovers and denyers of emdrives.
I've found a path to describe a dissipative loss of thust effect.
I will explain.
Any possible thrust from a Emdrive cavity must begin as a result of an interaction between the electromagnetic field and conducting electrons on internal surface of cavity.
At the frequency of operation the conducting electrons envolved are localized at thin layer of skin depth.
So, any mechanism of thrust will act first on conducting electrons in skin depth trying producing a charge polarization on internal surface of cavity.
But this polarization will not survive because the electrons can find a path of discharge out of skin depth layer, producing a ohmic loss.
The walls of cavity are too thick if compared with skin depth.
How to overcome this situation?
Monomorphic and others already reported a "strange high absortion" under some configurations of resonance excitation.
Any anomalous external magnetic field was observed during tests?Not observed but introduced: Eagle Works initially used a magnetic damper based on neodymium magnets near the cavity... They did some magnetic measurements with a probe around the frustum but this was not documented (info by Paul Mach). Kind of non reciprocal effects based on this has been discussed a while back.Thank's X_RaY.
I think if Eagle Works was expecting by simulations, or had observed an external magnetic field.
This simulations in yours last post, appears indicating a try to find an excitation of cavity by inverse path.
They had simulated the response of a cavity with 0.035 thick walls under a dipole excitation of 1 Hertz.
I think they try to test reciprocity theorem with negative results.No, this simulations were done by myself for J.P. Montillet (with some help from Paul Mach who delivered the approximated position and magnetic field strength). We did not come to a final conclusion up to date.
The 1 Hz simulation was performed to imitate a static field from an permanent magnet (using only a single phase angle from the simulation, not the full cycle of 360 deg at 1 Hz). This static field should be combined with a ~1 GHz TM010 resonance within the cavity. Of course, to search for non reciprocal effects, maybe acting on the cavity.
The point is that there are data calculated on the same grid for ~1 GHz and for the quasi-static 1 Hz simulation. But the combination is still pending.

Hi lovers and denyers of emdrives.
I've found a path to describe a dissipative loss of thust effect.
I will explain.
Any possible thrust from a Emdrive cavity must begin as a result of an interaction between the electromagnetic field and conducting electrons on internal surface of cavity.
At the frequency of operation the conducting electrons envolved are localized at thin layer of skin depth.
So, any mechanism of thrust will act first on conducting electrons in skin depth trying producing a charge polarization on internal surface of cavity.
But this polarization will not survive because the electrons can find a path of discharge out of skin depth layer, producing a ohmic loss.
The walls of cavity are too thick if compared with skin depth.
How to overcome this situation?
Monomorphic and others already reported a "strange high absortion" under some configurations of resonance excitation.
Any anomalous external magnetic field was observed during tests?Not observed but introduced: Eagle Works initially used a magnetic damper based on neodymium magnets near the cavity... They did some magnetic measurements with a probe around the frustum but this was not documented (info by Paul Mach). Kind of non reciprocal effects based on this has been discussed a while back.Thank's X_RaY.
I think if Eagle Works was expecting by simulations, or had observed an external magnetic field.
This simulations in yours last post, appears indicating a try to find an excitation of cavity by inverse path.
They had simulated the response of a cavity with 0.035 thick walls under a dipole excitation of 1 Hertz.
I think they try to test reciprocity theorem with negative results.No, this simulations were done by myself for J.P. Montillet (with some help from Paul Mach who delivered the approximated position and magnetic field strength). We did not come to a final conclusion up to date.
The 1 Hz simulation was performed to imitate a static field from an permanent magnet (using only a single phase angle from the simulation, not the full cycle of 360 deg at 1 Hz). This static field should be combined with a ~1 GHz TM010 resonance within the cavity. Of course, to search for non reciprocal effects, maybe acting on the cavity.
The point is that there are data calculated on the same grid for ~1 GHz and for the quasi-static 1 Hz simulation. But the combination is still pending.I undertand X_Ray.
Does your research related with these interesting survivor ExH "90 degrees dephased" poynting vector amplitude averaged under a time cycle?