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#1580 by meberbs on 27 Sep, 2019 20:46
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My idea in brainstorming mode has no limits
I am not sure what you are showing with the yellow circle? motion of a specific particle? It doesn't really matter, because no amount of deforming the shapes of the bouncing balls can make them start moving en masse in some preferred direction.
. Look at the yellow washer. Let's flexibly change its shape using the remote control (without supplying energy from outside, the washer has a built-in battery). It is clear that her tactorium may already be completely different, for example, the puck can, like a ballerina on the stage, create a beautiful dance of movement in this Brownian stream of other molecules.2. Why should I break the law of conservation of momentum? there are 10 ^ 26 molecules in 1 mole of gas, please enjoy the law of conservation of momentum between them 10 ^ 26 times.
You tell me, you are the one who keeps coming up with various scenarios and then making false assumptions midway through that violate conservation of momentum, in this case you bring up a "demon" to do the magic.3. What is gas pressure? This is the number of molecular hits on the walls of the vessel. Using the demon with remote control, you can easily change the distribution law of the number of hits of molecules on the walls. The animation shows that at every moment of time, on the walls of the vessel there are special points where the molecules do not hit the walls of the vessel. For example, I can create holes at these points using quick algorithms, and at the same time, the total gas pressure on the walls will not change.
Not exactly a good definition for pressure, since the velocity and angle of the hits also matter. Even if you magically made holes everywhere a molecule didn't strike, it would change nothing as the forces wouldn't change.4. Mentally, we will make the molecules multifaceted, and we will install electromagnets with remote control in each face. This will open up amazing opportunities to create entire flows of certain molecules in a vessel, so that the number of their hits of all other molecules against the walls does not change.
Again, you are just assuming that you can magically align the motion of the molecules without external forces. This is impossible to do.There seems to be a new term here. The propagation speed of control signals, information in the system. Imagine that each molecule has a built-in computer, with a pre-recorded program and a neural network. This method allows you to very well control the frequency and number of molecular hits on the walls of the vessel. Permissible? A new element has appeared in the momentum calculation formula - program code, information, firmware in ROM .. At the time of Newton, it seems that such opportunities simply did not exist?
You can assume all of the perfect knowledge of the system and predictions that you want, you cannot magically align the motions to get anything useful out of the system.
Your end goal (net motion of center of mass without external forces) is contradicted by the starting assumption of conservation of momentum. No matter how much complexity you put in the middle, you cannot get to your desired result. How many times does this need to be repeated before you stop trying to prove the equivalent of 1+1=3? -
#1581 by Alex_O on 29 Sep, 2019 08:42
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4. Mentally, we will make the molecules multifaceted, and we will install electromagnets with remote control in each face. This will open up amazing opportunities to create entire flows of certain molecules in a vessel, so that the number of their hits of all other molecules against the walls does not change.
Again, you are just assuming that you can magically align the motion of the molecules without external forces. This is impossible to do.
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You can assume all of the perfect knowledge of the system and predictions that you want, you cannot magically align the motions to get anything useful out of the system.
Your end goal (net motion of center of mass without external forces) is contradicted by the starting assumption of conservation of momentum. No matter how much complexity you put in the middle, you cannot get to your desired result. How many times does this need to be repeated before you stop trying to prove the equivalent of 1+1=3?
Thank you, I am advancing in simulations, I would like to discuss for now.
You said that I am trying to change the center of mass without external forces. I do not want it. I thought that the rocket has an internal source of energy, and I want to convert this energy into the kinetic energy of the rocket's motion. I thought, let's look from an unusual side to a simple jet engine. Why does it work at all? I immediately found two types of jet engines.
1 type. A vessel, a piston in it, a motor pushing a piston, a piston pushing a consumable mass - everything is very simple. The piston will receive energy from the motor, the piston has mass, speed and we see a classic example of momentum conservation, this is a real rocket.
2 type. The vessel, high pressure gas in it, made a hole in the vessel. There is no piston, no motor .. there is only a theory of probability that in the first instant several gas molecules accidentally pass through an opening in the housing. Moreover, if several molecules pass through the hole, they will do it on their own, of their own free will, without human help. (the moment of time the first nanosecond after drilling a hole in a vessel with gas pressure is discussed)
And only then, as a result of the most complex physics, the concentration of molecules will redistribute in the vessel, different walls of the vessel will experience a different number of vector impacts of gas molecules ...
But that doesn’t mean anything. The pressure on its walls has changed in the vessel. With what fright, this vessel will fly like a rocket? After all, there is no piston in it, a hand that really throws a stone, like the captain of a boat from an episode on another page?
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In short, after drilling a hole in the end wall, a different gas pressure force is created on the upper and lower walls of the vessel. And on the vessel, from the side of the gas molecules, a simple mechanical force acts, which creates the acceleration of the vessel. This rocket works due to the fact that at its ends, it creates a pressure drop. And it works as long as there is a pressure drop.
In this case, in fact, a hole in the wall and the expiration of gas molecules from it - this is not an important and necessary condition. Something like this, an unusual look at jet propulsion, in principle.
Further, I mentally change gas molecules into portions of photons, which differ very fundamentally from gas molecules. Photons have no mass. They can be turned on and off. But photons can create pressure on the cavity walls. If we learn how to build the differential pressure of photons on the walls of the resonator, we will get a missile, type 2.
Question. Clarify what happens to the center of mass of the EMdrive if the RF power is turned on and off? -
#1582 by meberbs on 29 Sep, 2019 14:38
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You said that I am trying to change the center of mass without external forces. I do not want it.
Which part of that statement is wrong, and what are you actually trying to do if not that?
"accelerate the center of mass" is the only way to get something to go from point A to point B by definition, so without that you aren't trying for anything. (For a rocket, the propellant leaves the rocket forever, carrying away momentum.)
You have proposed multiple systems that have no interactions with anything outside a cavity, and apply no force.
2 type. The vessel, high pressure gas in it, made a hole in the vessel. There is no piston, no motor .. there is only a theory of probability that in the first instant several gas molecules accidentally pass through an opening in the housing. Moreover, if several molecules pass through the hole, they will do it on their own, of their own free will, without human help. (the moment of time the first nanosecond after drilling a hole in a vessel with gas pressure is discussed)[/quote]
I already explained why your statements here are nonsense, again you are making me repeat myself. The pressure on the walls doesn't change because that is force per area, but the force on the walls changes because the area of the wall changed. Force is what matters. For a small enough hole, the pressure on all of the walls of the box can even remain essentially uniform, and the rocket motion only coming from the change in area.
Or you could take the easy route and just add up the momentum of the molecules leaving the box because that is how much momentum the box gains. Claiming otherwise would just be doing exactly the thing you said at the beginning of this post that you weren't trying to do.Further, I mentally change gas molecules into portions of photons, which differ very fundamentally from gas molecules. Photons have no mass. They can be turned on and off. But photons can create pressure on the cavity walls. If we learn how to build the differential pressure of photons on the walls of the resonator, we will get a missile, type 2.
Again, you make false assertions equivalent to invoking magic. Photons have energy (remember mass-energy equivalence) and they have momentum. Photons obey conservation laws. You cannot get them to give you any assymetric force except by ejecting them from the cavity entirely just like a rocket and its exhaust, but photons only give you a miniscule amount of force, because they have a poor energy/momentum ratio. There are known better ways to emit them all in one direction, such as a laser.Question. Clarify what happens to the center of mass of the EMdrive if the RF power is turned on and off?
Nothing, because the emDrive does not work. There is no consistent theory that says it should work, and the best experiments all say that it doesn't. -
#1583 by Alex_O on 29 Sep, 2019 17:16
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You said that I am trying to change the center of mass without external forces. I do not want it.
Which part of that statement is wrong, and what are you actually trying to do if not that?
"accelerate the center of mass" is the only way to get something to go from point A to point B by definition, so without that you aren't trying for anything. (For a rocket, the propellant leaves the rocket forever, carrying away momentum.)
You have proposed multiple systems that have no interactions with anything outside a cavity, and apply no force.
My problem is that I am discussing the idea of changing the position of the center of mass through the work of internal forces. Which according to modern physics is impossible. But I do not want to invent new physics (for example, to control inertia, gravity or virtual quantum plasma, etc.), the only thing I allow myself is to look at the already known properties of the EM field from a new perspective. I want to create different radiation pressure in the microwave cavity on its inner walls. The pressure drop will create a force that will be multiplied by the value of the quality factor of the resonator.2 type. The vessel, high pressure gas in it, made a hole in the vessel. There is no piston, no motor .. there is only a theory of probability that in the first instant several gas molecules accidentally pass through an opening in the housing. Moreover, if several molecules pass through the hole, they will do it on their own, of their own free will, without human help. (the moment of time the first nanosecond after drilling a hole in a vessel with gas pressure is discussed)
I already explained why your statements here are nonsense, again you are making me repeat myself. The pressure on the walls doesn't change because that is force per area, but the force on the walls changes because the area of the wall changed. Force is what matters. For a small enough hole, the pressure on all of the walls of the box can even remain essentially uniform, and the rocket motion only coming from the change in area.
Or you could take the easy route and just add up the momentum of the molecules leaving the box because that is how much momentum the box gains. Claiming otherwise would just be doing exactly the thing you said at the beginning of this post that you weren't trying to do.
About gas pressure. I wanted to show an example of a rocket that can make a small flight, due to the work of internal forces. I took a vessel with gas and wanted to quickly change the gas pressure on one wall of the rocket. You are right, I didn’t show physics well what happens after drilling a hole in a wall. But I used the term gas pressure force (and I also had viscous gas). This force, measured in Newtons, depends on the wall area, gas pressure and its density. Obviously, when I drilled a hole, I reduced the density of the gas at the stern of the rocket, and on the bow of the rocket the density and pressure of the gas remained the same (for a very short period of time).
If it is possible to create a different force of (radiation) pressure on the stern and on the bow, then the rocket will be able to make a movement due to internal forces.
I’m also trying to take a fresh look at the principle of operation of a conventional rocket engine, which makes the movement due to the internal gradient (energy), due to the pressure drop in the main vessel (and the physical process of ejecting the propellant is not the most important, secondary, consequence).Nothing, because the emDrive does not work. There is no consistent theory that says it should work, and the best experiments all say that it doesn't.
Emdrive does not work in well-known replicas because the test bench was not built correctly. The drive was not allowed, banned, limited to create the effect of the difference in radiation pressure on the walls. Since the stand developers did not set such a task for themselves. They thought that it was necessary to build a resonator with a very good standing wave. And they did not foresee physics, which would allow creating a special protocol, transport, for traveling internal energy “on top of a standing wave”.
Sorry, this is intuition. The right Emdrive is a device that creates “wave hump movement” in its path and at the same time, creating a wave, tries to ride this wave like a surfer (like a person with a board that rides on waves).
Emdrive - it can be like a climber that throws a rope with an “anchor” in front of himself, and then pulls himself on an rope to an anchor. -
#1584 by Alex_O on 29 Sep, 2019 18:26
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Nothing, because the emDrive does not work. There is no consistent theory that says it should work, and the best experiments all say that it doesn't.
Here is a good example when, when designing a Niobium cavity, they see the Lorentz forces that create a harmful effect and model special engineering solutions (increasing the stiffness of the thin walls of the resonator due to the use of stiffeners). This is guaranteed to reduce the ability of emdrive to fly "on the crest of a wave." (intuition, guess)
Here, the Lorentz forces reduce the quality of the resonator, since they create deformations of the wall geometry.
LORENTZ FORCE DETUNING SIMULATIONS OF SPOKE CAVITIES WITH DIFFERENT STIFFENING ELEMENTSQuoteLorentz force detuning caused by radiation pressure on the Niobium cavity walls is of concern in cavity design and operation since its magnitude can approach the cavity bandwidth. This effect can be reduced using passive stiffening elements in the cavity. In this work, Lorentz force detuning has been studied by numerical simulations for spoke cavities. Different stiffening elements have been considered. Static and dynamic behaviour have been analysed by means of 3D static and transient coupled electromagnetic
and mechanical finite elements simulations.
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#1585 by meberbs on 29 Sep, 2019 23:38
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My problem is that I am discussing the idea of changing the position of the center of mass through the work of internal forces. Which according to modern physics is impossible. But I do not want to invent new physics (for example, to control inertia, gravity or virtual quantum plasma, etc.), the only thing I allow myself is to look at the already known properties of the EM field from a new perspective. I want to create different radiation pressure in the microwave cavity on its inner walls. The pressure drop will create a force that will be multiplied by the value of the quality factor of the resonator.
No "new perspective" can change that it has been proven that electrodynamics always obeys conservation of momentum and is fully included in the "according to modern physics is impossible" statement. Anything that changes this would be new physics.About gas pressure. I wanted to show an example of a rocket that can make a small flight, due to the work of internal forces. I took a vessel with gas and wanted to quickly change the gas pressure on one wall of the rocket. You are right, I didn’t show physics well what happens after drilling a hole in a wall. But I used the term gas pressure force (and I also had viscous gas). This force, measured in Newtons, depends on the wall area, gas pressure and its density. Obviously, when I drilled a hole, I reduced the density of the gas at the stern of the rocket, and on the bow of the rocket the density and pressure of the gas remained the same (for a very short period of time).
Again it isn't possible the full proof for electrodynamics can be found in textbooks.
If it is possible to create a different force of (radiation) pressure on the stern and on the bow, then the rocket will be able to make a movement due to internal forces.I’m also trying to take a fresh look at the principle of operation of a conventional rocket engine, which makes the movement due to the internal gradient (energy), due to the pressure drop in the main vessel (and the physical process of ejecting the propellant is not the most important, secondary, consequence).
Which is "most important" is not a logical question to ask out of physics in this context. Without the propellant exiting, there would be no difference in forces. Without the difference in forces, there would be nothing leaving. Looking from different perspectives can make solving certain problems easier or harder, but it doesn't change the result.Emdrive does not work in well-known replicas because the test bench was not built correctly. The drive was not allowed, banned, limited to create the effect of the difference in radiation pressure on the walls. Since the stand developers did not set such a task for themselves. They thought that it was necessary to build a resonator with a very good standing wave. And they did not foresee physics, which would allow creating a special protocol, transport, for traveling internal energy “on top of a standing wave”.
The experimenters cannot "allow the device to create a difference in radiation pressure." Because they cannot directly control the distribution of radiation pressure. They can control the shape of the box and the signal they put in, but no shape or input signal will create an asymmetric force.Sorry, this is intuition.
Your intuition on this is wrong, and you aren't providing an suggestions for a different experiment that can actually be implemented.Emdrive - it can be like a climber that throws a rope with an “anchor” in front of himself, and then pulls himself on an rope to an anchor.
Which doesn't work at all when there is nothing for the anchor to catch on.Here is a good example when, when designing a Niobium cavity, they see the Lorentz forces that create a harmful effect and model special engineering solutions (increasing the stiffness of the thin walls of the resonator due to the use of stiffeners). This is guaranteed to reduce the ability of emdrive to fly "on the crest of a wave." (intuition, guess)
This does not show that any emDrives test units ever would have had this type of problem, though it does show that all kinds of complex caities have been designed and built, so this does not seem like a probable place to fid new physics.
Also, if it is just a guess based on intuition, then it is not "guaranteed."
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#1586 by Alex_O on 30 Sep, 2019 17:45
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This does not show that any emDrives test units ever would have had this type of problem, though it does show that all kinds of complex caities have been designed and built, so this does not seem like a probable place to fid new physics.
Also, if it is just a guess based on intuition, then it is not "guaranteed."
Thank you dear meberbs, I understand all your arguments, I have no criticism of your arguments, I want to go further. I want to thank you that you are so carefully and patiently discussing all these subtle issues, which I repeat many times, thank you, dear meberbs for that.
(I continue to tune my simulation, I already see the integral sums of Lorentz forces on the surface today, but I still don’t understand everything and I’m testing my model.)
With your permission, I want to discuss the issue of electrodynamics. I will repeat the quote. I will also ask stupid questions, and I will do it on purpose, which will expand my ability to think. Do not scold me for stupid questions please.QuoteResonant Modes of a Conical Cavity http://www.gregegan.net/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html#REF10
There is a term 2π / ω. It seems that all the problems are in this term. What does it mean? Is it possible practically (in real designs of resonators, RF sources and antennas) to change something strongly?
Greg Egan leads Proof of zero force for any shape of cavity
If the cavity contains a standing wave, then the fields will have a harmonic time dependence of the form sin (ωt) or cos (ωt), and over one complete cycle of the mode, a period of 2π / ω, all the fields will return to their origin values.
∫cycle (∂Si / ∂t) dt = Si (t0 + 2π / ω) - Si (t0) = 0
So, averaged over a complete cycle in the same way, each component of the net force on the wall will sum to zero.
This means that there is no flow of energy in a standing wave. A periodic change in the sign of the Poynting vector shows that the direction of energy movement periodically changes. Energy oscillates between the antinodes of the electric and the antinodes of the magnetic field.QuoteThis means that there is no flow of energy in a standing wave. A periodic change in the sign of the Poynting vector shows that the direction of energy movement periodically changes. Energy oscillates between the antinodes of the electric and the antinodes of the magnetic field.
If there is no 2π / ω, then the energy will be able to perform asymmetric oscillations, and if there are solid walls in the path of the energy flow that can absorb / reflect energy in different ways, what does this mean?
What are asymmetric vibrations? Could this be, or is it a fantasy? Can we talk about oscillations and about 2π / ω?
I can formulate a possible end result. The resonator accumulates radio waves, enhances the amplitude of the oscillations of the radio waves, but so that the 2π / ω rule does not work.
If field fluctuations in Emdrive do not obey the 2π / ω rule, what does this mean? Emdrive reports have strange things. Maximum thrust is created at a lower quality factor. There is the term traveling wave, the term reflected signal, the author adjusts the system so that the values of Q, the term of the traveling wave and the term level of the reflected signal have important, correct values. Don't you think this is an important clue, a very important clue ? Maybe the Emdrive thrust is created when the correct “2π / ω” (not like 2π / ω?) Is created in the system (RF source, waveguide, antenna, resonator)?
UPd 1:
I’ll try to show a couple of animated simulations, it seems to me that I began to better understand them, after thinking about the factor 2π /ω .
1 sim - I found somewhere on the Internet. I don’t know how to do such things. I don’t know who the author is. Perhaps here we see the work of the factor 2π / ω , but as it seems to me now - it’s a bad job, it won’t create thrust drive in the “easy and good” mode,
2 sim is from my first post on the forum, here I still see (virtual, real?) Movement of the energy flow along the axis of the drive, but this (as I understand it now) is not enough to create a real rocket thrust. Although here you can think about the movement of the center of mass taking into account the concept of variable mass and the MAX effect (literally a variable mass of the EM field, this is a small quantity, but it turns on and off if you put it horizontally on the balancer - the balance will show the drift of the center of mass, the velocity of the center of mass depends on the speed of the switch, it can be faster than the speed of light, at a frequency of THz, this movement can become a strong source of high-frequency gravitational waves and a demonstration of new physics).
3 sim - from an article discussing the role of a traveling wave in creating traction in a cylindrical resonator.
4 sim - we see the idea of EM field rotation in the Emdrive resonator. I don’t know if this can be physically possible, if so, then there is a rotation of a variable mass at a frequency in THz. Moreover, the rotation - jerky. From these sims, you can come up with some kind of hybrid, what of this will be - I do not know. In general, you need to combine all 4 sims. And compare with the distribution of EM fields in the famous replicas of Emdrive. Given the still incomprehensible concept of taking into account the Doppler effect, the microphone effect (see 5 sim), thermal deformations, etc.
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#1587 by meberbs on 30 Sep, 2019 22:57
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Thank you dear meberbs, I understand all your arguments, I have no criticism of your arguments, I want to go further. I want to thank you that you are so carefully and patiently discussing all these subtle issues, which I repeat many times, thank you, dear meberbs for that.
I am not sure what you are saying here, because this is what it sounds like you are saying to me:
You understand that you are in a dead end surrounded by solid walls, and you know that there is no way to walk through them, but you are going to waste time and probably hurt yourself by trying to walk through the solid brick wall anyway.
If this is not what you were trying to say, then there has been a miscommunication somewhere, perhaps you haven't understood what I have been saying, although I don't know how else to say it, possibly a language barrier issue.With your permission, I want to discuss the issue of electrodynamics. I will repeat the quote. I will also ask stupid questions, and I will do it on purpose, which will expand my ability to think. Do not scold me for stupid questions please.
It is often said that there are no stupid questions. I don't think that is actually true, for example if a question is simply irrelevant to the context. Another bad type of question is if you know the answer to something but pretend not to, or base your question on an assumption that you know is wrong. Otherwise there is no such thing as a stupid question, because questions are how you learn.
If you simply did not know that 2π / ω is simply the period of the oscillations (1/frequency), then you now know that, and should be able to recognize that everything else you said was completely nonsensical (starting with statements like "if there is no period," which makes no sense, because by definition we are working with oscillating signals.) If you knew that 2π / ω was simply the period, and you wrote nonsensical statements on purpose, saying "2π / ω" rather than "the period" to disguise how wrong your statements were, then that would be a problem. I obviously assume that it is the first case and you simply didn't know. -
#1588 by Alex_O on 01 Oct, 2019 05:04
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Period of oscillation the time during which the pendulum makes a movement and returns to the starting point. To the starting point, doc! oThank you dear meberbs, I understand all your arguments, I have no criticism of your arguments, I want to go further. I want to thank you that you are so carefully and patiently discussing all these subtle issues, which I repeat many times, thank you, dear meberbs for that.
I am not sure what you are saying here, because this is what it sounds like you are saying to me:
You understand that you are in a dead end surrounded by solid walls, and you know that there is no way to walk through them, but you are going to waste time and probably hurt yourself by trying to walk through the solid brick wall anyway.
If this is not what you were trying to say, then there has been a miscommunication somewhere, perhaps you haven't understood what I have been saying, although I don't know how else to say it, possibly a language barrier issue.With your permission, I want to discuss the issue of electrodynamics. I will repeat the quote. I will also ask stupid questions, and I will do it on purpose, which will expand my ability to think. Do not scold me for stupid questions please.
It is often said that there are no stupid questions. I don't think that is actually true, for example if a question is simply irrelevant to the context. Another bad type of question is if you know the answer to something but pretend not to, or base your question on an assumption that you know is wrong. Otherwise there is no such thing as a stupid question, because questions are how you learn.
If you simply did not know that 2π / ω is simply the period of the oscillations (1/frequency), then you now know that, and should be able to recognize that everything else you said was completely nonsensical (starting with statements like "if there is no period," which makes no sense, because by definition we are working with oscillating signals.) If you knew that 2π / ω was simply the period, and you wrote nonsensical statements on purpose, saying "2π / ω" rather than "the period" to disguise how wrong your statements were, then that would be a problem. I obviously assume that it is the first case and you simply didn't know.
On all sim above, all coordinates, values, etc. always return to the starting point. Is this a prerequisite? Look at the bird flight. Its pendulum, an oscillating element, with a period of oscillation, right? Its pendulum never returns to its starting point, the integral over the energy vector is not equal to zero. -
#1589 by meberbs on 01 Oct, 2019 05:15
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Period of oscillation the time during which the pendulum makes a movement and returns to the starting point. To the starting point, doc! o
For the countless time, it is inherent to electromagnetism that momentum is conserved so the only unbalanced force would be the very tiny one from radiating away photons. The proportional to Q fields are only those that are nicely symmetric and cancel out, which is what is described by Egan. The general case that includes transient fields is covered by the textbook proof of conservation of momentum.
On all sim above, all coordinates, values, etc. always return to the starting point. Is this a prerequisite? Look at the bird flight. Its pendulum, an oscillating element, with a period of oscillation, right? Its pendulum never returns to its starting point, the integral over the energy vector is not equal to zero.
Again, birds push off air, but the emDrive has nothing to push off of. There is nothing else for it to interact with to balance the momentum, and if you aren't looking to propose new physics that would include such a thing, then you aren't going anywhere. -
#1590 by Alex_O on 01 Oct, 2019 06:02
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I have a very good answer I will show in the evening. let's not get distracted by the momentum problem yet. let it be the variable X in the equation with one variable. The above analysis gives a very clear indication. in the Emdrive resonator, in addition to the photon gas, which is created using harmonious photon vibrations, an additional process is needed, an energy flow, so that no one can ever return to the original coordinate. I do not see in the famous replicas of Emdrive any engineering solutions or technical systems to support this function. Example, a bird flaps its wings in a vacuum. She first released her gases, and then quickly quickly fluttered her wings.Period of oscillation the time during which the pendulum makes a movement and returns to the starting point. To the starting point, doc! o
For the countless time, it is inherent to electromagnetism that momentum is conserved so the only unbalanced force would be the very tiny one from radiating away photons. The proportional to Q fields are only those that are nicely symmetric and cancel out, which is what is described by Egan. The general case that includes transient fields is covered by the textbook proof of conservation of momentum.
On all sim above, all coordinates, values, etc. always return to the starting point. Is this a prerequisite? Look at the bird flight. Its pendulum, an oscillating element, with a period of oscillation, right? Its pendulum never returns to its starting point, the integral over the energy vector is not equal to zero.
Again, birds push off air, but the emDrive has nothing to push off of. There is nothing else for it to interact with to balance the momentum, and if you aren't looking to propose new physics that would include such a thing, then you aren't going anywhere. -
#1591 by meberbs on 01 Oct, 2019 07:44
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an additional process is needed, an energy flow, so that no one can ever return to the original coordinate.
2 best case scenarios for this:
1. You gather a bunch of energy at one side of a closed cavity, and send it to the other side to be absorbed. This results in exactly as much motion as if you had a ball of mass equivalent to the amount of energy (E=m*c^2) move from one end of the cavity to the other. The outer walls of the cavity will move just enough to keep the center of mass in the same place. Trying to do this repeatedly either requires moving the energy back to the starting point, undoing the motion in the process, or just consuming all of the mass-energy in the cavity repeating the process, until the second end of the cavity contains all of the mass of the cavity and sits at the center of mass.
2. You radiate the energy away and all you have is a photon rocket.I do not see in the famous replicas of Emdrive any engineering solutions or technical systems to support this function.
Because other than the 2 useless cases I just described, there is no such thing as a useful system that does this.Example, a bird flaps its wings in a vacuum. She first released her gases, and then quickly quickly fluttered her wings.
You are just describing the equivalent of a rocket. Release some mass, and have it move away with some velocity, so you go in the other direction at a speed proportional to the relative mass and the exhaust velocity. -
#1592 by Alex_O on 01 Oct, 2019 21:05
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an additional process is needed, an energy flow, so that no one can ever return to the original coordinate.
2 best case scenarios for this:
1. You gather a bunch of energy at one side of a closed cavity, and send it to the other side to be absorbed. This results in exactly as much motion as if you had a ball of mass equivalent to the amount of energy (E=m*c^2) move from one end of the cavity to the other. The outer walls of the cavity will move just enough to keep the center of mass in the same place. Trying to do this repeatedly either requires moving the energy back to the starting point, undoing the motion in the process, or just consuming all of the mass-energy in the cavity repeating the process, until the second end of the cavity contains all of the mass of the cavity and sits at the center of mass.
2. You radiate the energy away and all you have is a photon rocket.I do not see in the famous replicas of Emdrive any engineering solutions or technical systems to support this function.
Because other than the 2 useless cases I just described, there is no such thing as a useful system that does this.Example, a bird flaps its wings in a vacuum. She first released her gases, and then quickly quickly fluttered her wings.
You are just describing the equivalent of a rocket. Release some mass, and have it move away with some velocity, so you go in the other direction at a speed proportional to the relative mass and the exhaust velocity.
I tried to look at this idea - to collect energy in a limited place. I wanted to build a small pressure vessel, but this vessel has an attached tube through which gas / energy can exit almost freely.
New version after discussion yesterdayQuoteGas, molecules can exit freely, and photons cannot exit freely, they "do not creep through." And the "poor" photons gather in a heap on one wall of the vessel and create pressure on this wall, and on the opposite wall - where there is a hole in the vessel - they simply can not create pressure, so there is a hole.
The old version of the topic below
But!!! The wave properties of photons, by design (intuition), multiply by the quality factor of quality their pressure force on one wall. At the same time, a weak photon flux will come out of the hole, which can be compared with the volume of electric losses in the resonator. And the task of the RF generator
1) pump gas, create pressure
2) to compensate for losses due to gas leakage.
The simulation below, a spherical resonator, energy enters the resonator through a round waveguide. I changed the diameter of the waveguide and searched for resonant frequencies using the built-in solver. It was interesting to see how much the EM field distribution in the system changes. (E fields, B fields ).
Then I looked at the dipole antenna system (1/2 wave) and a solid screen, a large flat reflector. I saw that the field energy can be localized in a limited area of the near and far zones.
But I did not see the idea for the drive, until I paid attention to the thesis that Emdrive should be allowed to accelerate. The idea of the Doppler effect does not inspire me at all, but it seems, while discussing the thesis - an additional process is needed, an energy flow, so that no one can ever return to the original coordinate.
I intuitively thought that with the progressive movement of any box with photons - this happens automatically. Especially if the box is not an ideal resonator. Where a lot of “rays”, flows of EM waves come from a non-ideal RF source, which differ in phase, frequency, amplitude, are modulated differently (by noise), different polarizations and create EM fields in the resonator with different modes (TE, TM, TEM. .).
As a result, in a non-ideal resonator, there is a pendulum, how is the total power = power of the source cell * Q factor and this pendulum does not harmonic ?? (correct me please in the used term) fluctuations.
This pendulum, in each period, never returns to its original position, its "integral of energy by volume" is not equal to zero. The translational or accelerated movement of the resonator in free space - only either makes it worse (for the integral) or makes it better randomly (for zero the effect of a missile edray missile)
The situation is getting worse, since there is a process of absorption of photons on the walls. This is a random process. It looks like a free pendulum hit a wall that was not next to it at the last nanosecond. This further strengthens the problem of non-zero energy integral.
==
Sorry, I still have to think about an example where photons are a flock of wild geese that were caught in a network, and this network made the geese show the wave properties of photons, they stray into a dense flock, but there is a big hole in the network, but the wave properties of geese do not allow you to fly free. They behave like a pendulum that cannot return to the origin. It seems I immediately figured out how to build a simulation.
In order to strengthen the model, we will suspend an electromagnet for each goose and allow it to be turned on and off in the right way, in order to act on the electrons of the conducting wall of the cell in a very correct way. "And the electrons themselves, we will preliminarily build like a soldier on the parade ground - into slender marching columns of soldiers on the march."
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#1593 by meberbs on 02 Oct, 2019 03:40
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New version after discussion yesterday
I am not sure what you are even describing for half of this, you describe nonsensical hypothetical materials (if gas can pass through, why can't photons? A glass jar would be an example of the opposite, but there is no such thing as what you described.)QuoteGas, molecules can exit freely, and photons cannot exit freely, they "do not creep through." And the "poor" photons gather in a heap on one wall of the vessel and create pressure on this wall, and on the opposite wall - where there is a hole in the vessel - they simply can not create pressure, so there is a hole.
But!!! The wave properties of photons, by design (intuition), multiply by the quality factor of quality their pressure force on one wall. At the same time, a weak photon flux will come out of the hole, which can be compared with the volume of electric losses in the resonator. And the task of the RF generator
1) pump gas, create pressure
2) to compensate for losses due to gas leakage.
As usual every time you say "intuition" it can be replaced with "unsupported and incorrect assumption."
By the end of this most recent post, you seem to have started talking about complete gibberish with some sort of completely incorrect analogy between geese and photons. -
#1594 by Alex_O on 02 Oct, 2019 11:03
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New version after discussion yesterday
I am not sure what you are even describing for half of this, you describe nonsensical hypothetical materials (if gas can pass through, why can't photons? A glass jar would be an example of the opposite, but there is no such thing as what you described.)QuoteGas, molecules can exit freely, and photons cannot exit freely, they "do not creep through." And the "poor" photons gather in a heap on one wall of the vessel and create pressure on this wall, and on the opposite wall - where there is a hole in the vessel - they simply can not create pressure, so there is a hole.
But!!! The wave properties of photons, by design (intuition), multiply by the quality factor of quality their pressure force on one wall. At the same time, a weak photon flux will come out of the hole, which can be compared with the volume of electric losses in the resonator. And the task of the RF generator
1) pump gas, create pressure
2) to compensate for losses due to gas leakage.
As usual every time you say "intuition" it can be replaced with "unsupported and incorrect assumption."
By the end of this most recent post, you seem to have started talking about complete gibberish with some sort of completely incorrect analogy between geese and photons.
Thank. These are very difficult thoughts, I don’t even have any right to talk about physical processes that can occur at the boundary of the media, in the thickness of the skin layer and in the near zone during reflection / absorption of EM photons in the EM resonator or mirror system. Maybe I can ask you hold a short description of possible physics here? (this is complex physics, I read about it in fragments in different applications)
Let me show you the source of my intuition, the attached link discusses the problems of emission of photons by atoms that are in the microwave cavity. Please use google translator, as the material is in Russian.
"Nobel Prize in Physics - 2012" - https://elementy.ru/novosti_nauki/431910/Nobelevskaya_premiya_po_fizike_2012
Please see the explanations for Figure 4.
quotesQuoteOne of the striking examples of such experiments, performed in the group of Serge Arosh, is an experimental demonstration that the lifetime of a single excited atom can be strongly changed by placing it in such a resonator.
What are you talking about? That there can be conditions in the resonator when photons cannot be reflected in a timely manner, re-emitted since the dimensions of the resonator (the distance between the walls) suppress the ability of the cavity walls to reflect the photon, creating, for example, time delays
..
The resonator used by Arosh was of a comparable size, and this allowed him to influence the decay rate. For example, an emitted photon simply would not fit in a very small resonator - and this fact alone prevents its emission, stabilizes the excited state. -
#1595 by Alex_O on 02 Oct, 2019 15:58
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We live in interesting times. I saw people putting a large ruby crystal in a microwave and waiting for energy (magic!) To come out of a solid open-type dielectric resonator with a whispering gallery resonance
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/52085/158289418.368/0_165295_55731a2f_XL.jpg
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/29984/158289418.36a/0_165302_76c2da00_XL.jpg
I was curious, I quickly built a simulation of the microwave and decided to see what's inside. At first I saw a field in an empty chamber, then I loaded two disks into the camera, then I caught a resonance between them. Interesting picture.
The question arose about discs and antennas, and after half an hour I enjoyed reading the ancient manuscript from NASA itself !! how BACKFIRE YAGI ANTENNA MEASUREMENTS was studied. N.pdfQuoteABSTRACT
I found this manuscript on the Internet in 5 minutes.
Radiation patterns and gain measurements on 1.0, 1.5, and 2. Oh backfire Yagi antennas are given. The backfire antenna was tested for two dipole feed locations, and variations in the diameters
of the two planar reflectors forming the backfire cavity. The optimum dimensions of the three test antennasare tabulated. The frequency bandwidth of the backfire antenna is limited to several percent due to impedance matching. The backfire antenna should find application in broadside arrays where conventional endfire antennas are presently used.
I even wanted to mount a stand in the microwave chamber for studying the Emdrive concept, which is different in that there are no problems with wires, magnetrons .. I thought in a small Faraday cage to hide a micromotor on a battery with remote control on IR to adjust the resonance between asymmetric disks . And measure the effect of Emdrive without errors from thermal loads from the RF source and its wires.
The development of history was the question of the effect of total internal reflection. What happens to a pulse in the photon waveguide system, does the photon transmit any pulse to the walls of the waveguide. I thought to build a horn behind the photon of the rocket, catch the photons and send them back through the waveguide for recovery. It seemed to me that if a photon almost does not lose energy in air defense, then the trick will work.
Who can help if a good study of the law of conservation of momentum in the effect of total reflection?
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#1596 by meberbs on 02 Oct, 2019 17:52
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Thank. These are very difficult thoughts, I don’t even have any right to talk about physical processes that can occur at the boundary of the media, in the thickness of the skin layer and in the near zone during reflection / absorption of EM photons in the EM resonator or mirror system. Maybe I can ask you hold a short description of possible physics here? (this is complex physics, I read about it in fragments in different applications)
The theory of this is covered in textbooks, and if you are really interested you should take a course in electrodynamics.
There are various approximations used when dealing with materials so that every nucleus and electron in the material does not need to be modeled. Different approximations are appropriate depending on the type of material, whether it is conductive, behaves in a linear or non-linear manner, and what kind of frequency dependence its properties have. No matter which of these cases it is, it does not change the fact that it all boils down to interactions between charged particles and electromagnetic fields, which are proven in general to conserve momentum. So the possible physics here is nothing useful for the conservation of momentum breaking idea of propellantless propulsion.What are you talking about? That there can be conditions in the resonator when photons cannot be reflected in a timely manner, re-emitted since the dimensions of the resonator (the distance between the walls) suppress the ability of the cavity walls to reflect the photon, creating, for example, time delays
That was my question to you, and rather than answer it you brought up a Nobel prize that was awarded for measuring quantum mechanical systems, which really is not relevant for anything we are discussing. You seem confused by this, because they do not propose a container that atoms can pass through but photons can't, but a container that has open sides so anything can pass through in one direction, but nothing in another. This is not helpful or relevant to the magical device you had been describing.We live in interesting times. I saw people putting a large ruby crystal in a microwave and waiting for energy (magic!) To come out of a solid open-type dielectric resonator with a whispering gallery resonance
This appears to be a series of random unrelated references and statements.
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/52085/158289418.368/0_165295_55731a2f_XL.jpg
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/29984/158289418.36a/0_165302_76c2da00_XL.jpg
I was curious, I quickly built a simulation of the microwave and decided to see what's inside. At first I saw a field in an empty chamber, then I loaded two disks into the camera, then I caught a resonance between them. Interesting picture.
The question arose about discs and antennas, and after half an hour I enjoyed reading the ancient manuscript from NASA itself !! how BACKFIRE YAGI ANTENNA MEASUREMENTS was studied. N.pdfThe development of history was the question of the effect of total internal reflection. What happens to a pulse in the photon waveguide system, does the photon transmit any pulse to the walls of the waveguide. I thought to build a horn behind the photon of the rocket, catch the photons and send them back through the waveguide for recovery. It seemed to me that if a photon almost does not lose energy in air defense, then the trick will work.
Total internal reflection, like everything else in electrodynamics perfectly conserves momentum. It is simply a case where a dielectric material reflects all light that comes from certain angles rather than allowing some of it to pass through the material.
Who can help if a good study of the law of conservation of momentum in the effect of total reflection? -
#1597 by meberbs on 02 Oct, 2019 18:39
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When a photon strikes a mass, is a Z boson created to mediate/effectuate the momentum transfer?
I am not sure why you would ask that, photons mediate electrodynamic forces, and the Z boson is a mediator for the weak force. The Z boson has no charge so photons would not interact with it. -
#1598 by Alex_O on 03 Oct, 2019 09:14
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Thank. These are very difficult thoughts, I don’t even have any right to talk about physical processes that can occur at the boundary of the media, in the thickness of the skin layer and in the near zone during reflection / absorption of EM photons in the EM resonator or mirror system. Maybe I can ask you hold a short description of possible physics here? (this is complex physics, I read about it in fragments in different applications)
The theory of this is covered in textbooks, and if you are really interested you should take a course in electrodynamics.
There are various approximations used when dealing with materials so that every nucleus and electron in the material does not need to be modeled. Different approximations are appropriate depending on the type of material, whether it is conductive, behaves in a linear or non-linear manner, and what kind of frequency dependence its properties have. No matter which of these cases it is, it does not change the fact that it all boils down to interactions between charged particles and electromagnetic fields, which are proven in general to conserve momentum. So the possible physics here is nothing useful for the conservation of momentum breaking idea of propellantless propulsion.What are you talking about? That there can be conditions in the resonator when photons cannot be reflected in a timely manner, re-emitted since the dimensions of the resonator (the distance between the walls) suppress the ability of the cavity walls to reflect the photon, creating, for example, time delays
That was my question to you, and rather than answer it you brought up a Nobel prize that was awarded for measuring quantum mechanical systems, which really is not relevant for anything we are discussing. You seem confused by this, because they do not propose a container that atoms can pass through but photons can't, but a container that has open sides so anything can pass through in one direction, but nothing in another. This is not helpful or relevant to the magical device you had been describing.
That was my question to you -(there was a translator mistake, I did not ask a question), Sorry.
Thank. The work of the Nobel laureate showed that the process of emission of a photon by an excited atom can depend on environmental parameters - for example, on the size of the resonator (note, I used the term "for example", that there may be additional options)
In this case, if I understand correctly, there may be time delays. I also saw descriptions of the effects of signal delays in fiber optic technology, where there is a term - delay line. Since I drew attention to the term period of fluctuations, I began to think - how to break it.
I thought that there could be “delays” in the resonator, in the physics of the reflection of EM waves from a conductor. I remember two terms - the phase velocity of propagation of an EM wave in a waveguide and the group velocity. Phase - the speed of movement of the crests of the wave - it does not transfer energy. Group velocity is the velocity of a wave packet — it transfers energy.
My thought has no boundaries, I specifically remove the boundaries for thought and try to come up with the most stupid questions. (I was taught this at the university).
I am creating a stupid new question - is it possible to use group velocity (delay algorithm) to create different radiation pressure on the end walls of the resonator.
Is it possible to intervene in the physics of reflection from the conductor of the incident wave, so as to create stronger asymmetry in the flows of incident and reflected energy. Above I see an example of such an intervention - using "geometry". What is radiation pressure? This is the force acting on free charges in a conductor from the side of an electric and magnetic field.
1. If, as a result of “energy retention on the surface”, the intensities of these fields are greater, the pressure force will also be greater.
2. If, as a result of "energy retention on the surface", the intensities of these fields are less, the pressure force will also be less.
3. There are two end walls in the resonator - if there is more energy on one and less on the other, then there will be a rocket thrust.
Am I reasoning right? Am I not trying to deceive the law of conservation of momentum?
The experiments with a dielectric resonator drew my attention to the effects of reflection at the interface of media, then I saw the idea that if there are thick oxide films (also dielectric) on the surface of copper (foil), then there can be very interesting physics. I plan to discuss this issue a bit later.We live in interesting times. I saw people putting a large ruby crystal in a microwave and waiting for energy (magic!) To come out of a solid open-type dielectric resonator with a whispering gallery resonance
This appears to be a series of random unrelated references and statements.
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/52085/158289418.368/0_165295_55731a2f_XL.jpg
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/29984/158289418.36a/0_165302_76c2da00_XL.jpg
I was curious, I quickly built a simulation of the microwave and decided to see what's inside. At first I saw a field in an empty chamber, then I loaded two disks into the camera, then I caught a resonance between them. Interesting picture.
The question arose about discs and antennas, and after half an hour I enjoyed reading the ancient manuscript from NASA itself !! how BACKFIRE YAGI ANTENNA MEASUREMENTS was studied. N.pdf
Please look at the two pictures below? This is the idea of a rocket from a thin waveguide that floats in the rays of light. What could be here? Where will such a rocket fly? I have more stupid questions for these rockets:).The development of history was the question of the effect of total internal reflection. What happens to a pulse in the photon waveguide system, does the photon transmit any pulse to the walls of the waveguide. I thought to build a horn behind the photon of the rocket, catch the photons and send them back through the waveguide for recovery. It seemed to me that if a photon almost does not lose energy in air defense, then the trick will work.
Total internal reflection, like everything else in electrodynamics perfectly conserves momentum. It is simply a case where a dielectric material reflects all light that comes from certain angles rather than allowing some of it to pass through the material.
Who can help if a good study of the law of conservation of momentum in the effect of total reflection?
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#1599 by meberbs on 03 Oct, 2019 15:10
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That was my question to you -(there was a translator mistake, I did not ask a question), Sorry.
It happens, no problem. I think I see what you meant there now.Thank. The work of the Nobel laureate showed that the process of emission of a photon by an excited atom can depend on environmental parameters - for example, on the size of the resonator (note, I used the term "for example", that there may be additional options)
No, that Nobel prize is about a single atom with a single electron in an excited state placed in a small quantum mechanical system, it has no application or relevance to what we are discussing here. The delays you are talking about have nothing to do with that research.
In this case, if I understand correctly, there may be time delays. I also saw descriptions of the effects of signal delays in fiber optic technology, where there is a term - delay line. Since I drew attention to the term period of fluctuations, I began to think - how to break it.
I thought that there could be “delays” in the resonator, in the physics of the reflection of EM waves from a conductor. I remember two terms - the phase velocity of propagation of an EM wave in a waveguide and the group velocity. Phase - the speed of movement of the crests of the wave - it does not transfer energy. Group velocity is the velocity of a wave packet — it transfers energy.My thought has no boundaries, I specifically remove the boundaries for thought and try to come up with the most stupid questions. (I was taught this at the university).
There are situations where that is helpful, but not when you let it get to the point of 1+1=3, and the next step you need to do (which you should be able to do without bouncing every idea off me) is check if what you came up with makes any sense at all.I am creating a stupid new question - is it possible to use group velocity (delay algorithm) to create different radiation pressure on the end walls of the resonator.
No, delays would not change the forces. Your end result of asymmetric forces with no exhaust still breaks conservation of momentum by definition.
Is it possible to intervene in the physics of reflection from the conductor of the incident wave, so as to create stronger asymmetry in the flows of incident and reflected energy. Above I see an example of such an intervention - using "geometry". What is radiation pressure? This is the force acting on free charges in a conductor from the side of an electric and magnetic field.
1. If, as a result of “energy retention on the surface”, the intensities of these fields are greater, the pressure force will also be greater.
2. If, as a result of "energy retention on the surface", the intensities of these fields are less, the pressure force will also be less.
3. There are two end walls in the resonator - if there is more energy on one and less on the other, then there will be a rocket thrust.
Am I reasoning right? Am I not trying to deceive the law of conservation of momentum?Please look at the two pictures below? This is the idea of a rocket from a thin waveguide that floats in the rays of light. What could be here? Where will such a rocket fly? I have more stupid questions for these rockets:).
The first one as drawn would not produce any force, however in reality, the exit being smaller than the entrance means that the exiting photons would not leave in a straight line, but would be spread out across a range of angles. A bit of momentum would therefore transfer to the device, but there is an existing device called a solar sail (basically a giant mirror) that would be much more effective.
The second one would work, although the force would be close to equal in the horizontal and vertical directions, with the horizontal force being slightly stronger if anything (for same reasons as why the previous picture would generate a tiny bit of force). The second one would actually generate comparable force to a solar sail, but a solar sail would be lighter for collecting the same amount of energy.
. Look at the yellow washer. Let's flexibly change its shape using the remote control (without supplying energy from outside, the washer has a built-in battery). It is clear that her tactorium may already be completely different, for example, the puck can, like a ballerina on the stage, create a beautiful dance of movement in this Brownian stream of other molecules.