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#1500 by meberbs on 17 Sep, 2019 14:53
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Aha! The old "swimming in vacuum" trick!
That "trick" requires an external gravitational potential that you interact with, which is not what the previous post was discussing.
https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6706I don’t know how it is right, if there is an error in the statement of the problem and the observation method, but it seems to me that I see that in this cavity the radiation pressure on the end walls is always different.
Your table is completely wrong, you ignore direction entirely, and break things into multiple steps that shouldn't be.
First of all, you should start with the whole system having 0 net momentum like so, so it is easy to see if it can ever move anywhere.
Each row shows the momentum after the next reflection. At all times momentum is balanced, so the cavity goes nowhere. With the 2 opposite walls moving in opposite directions, once the mechanical forces catch up, the whole thing will come to a stop. the net effect will not have the cavity make any progress anywhere. The dp's are small relative to p (also remember that dp may be negative), if they ever built up to equal -p, that would just mean the photon has been absorbed. You would have limited ability to control the values of dp, because of the already imparted momentum from previous reflections as well.left wall photon right wall total -p/2 p -p/2 0 -p/2 -p-dp1 -p/2+2p+dp1 0 -p/2-2p-2dp1-dp2 p+dp1+dp2 -p/2+2p+dp1 0 -p/2-2p-2dp1-dp2 -p-dp1-dp2-dp3 -p/2+4p+3dp1+2 dp2+dp3 0
At the end of the day, the net motion you could get from the cavity would be equal to taking a mass equal to E/c^2 where E is the energy in the photon, and moving that mass from one end of the cavity to the other. This is a very small motion of the outer walls of the cavity, and no montion of the center of mass of the system. -
#1501 by Bryan_Kelly on 17 Sep, 2019 15:47
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And using fast switching, "crawl through the vacuum." It's like a submarine of Dr. Harold G. White of EW, but she does not swim, she crawls.
Your worm is also suspended in gravity, and perhaps she is rocking the boat. -
#1502 by Alex_O on 17 Sep, 2019 16:23
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Aha! The old "swimming in vacuum" trick!
That "trick" requires an external gravitational potential that you interact with, which is not what the previous post was discussing.
https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6706I don’t know how it is right, if there is an error in the statement of the problem and the observation method, but it seems to me that I see that in this cavity the radiation pressure on the end walls is always different.
Your table is completely wrong, you ignore direction entirely, and break things into multiple steps that shouldn't be.
First of all, you should start with the whole system having 0 net momentum like so, so it is easy to see if it can ever move anywhere.
Each row shows the momentum after the next reflection. At all times momentum is balanced, so the cavity goes nowhere. With the 2 opposite walls moving in opposite directions, once the mechanical forces catch up, the whole thing will come to a stop. the net effect will not have the cavity make any progress anywhere. The dp's are small relative to p (also remember that dp may be negative), if they ever built up to equal -p, that would just mean the photon has been absorbed. You would have limited ability to control the values of dp, because of the already imparted momentum from previous reflections as well.left wall photon right wall total -p/2 p -p/2 0 -p/2 -p-dp1 -p/2+2p+dp1 0 -p/2-2p-2dp1-dp2 p+dp1+dp2 -p/2+2p+dp1 0 -p/2-2p-2dp1-dp2 -p-dp1-dp2-dp3 -p/2+4p+3dp1+2 dp2+dp3 0
At the end of the day, the net motion you could get from the cavity would be equal to taking a mass equal to E/c^2 where E is the energy in the photon, and moving that mass from one end of the cavity to the other. This is a very small motion of the outer walls of the cavity, and no montion of the center of mass of the system.
Thank. Yes, this cavity has zero momentum at the beginning, and it cannot change in any way due to the work of internal forces. According to my table or yours, the total momentum of the system will always be zero.
But this is what seems important to me. It seemed to me that in this system there is a variable. The force of radiation pressure on the end walls, which has a period of oscillation at the level of a nanosecond. Or it can be matched at a lower frequency, by controlling the drive of the worm muscles.
Right? If so, this is very important. -
#1503 by meberbs on 17 Sep, 2019 16:31
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But this is what seems important to me. It seemed to me that in this system there is a variable. The force of radiation pressure on the end walls, which has a period of oscillation at the level of a nanosecond. Or it can be matched at a lower frequency, by controlling the drive of the worm muscles.
No, it isn't important, you keep just jumping to conclusions like that without doing the math. The momentum is balanced, so the device as a whole will not go anywhere. Nothing you do with the "worm muscles" will change that.
Right? If so, this is very important. -
#1504 by Alex_O on 17 Sep, 2019 16:48
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Quote
Hello dear meberbs, please look at the new model?
I changed the model, used a cylindrical microwave cavity and installed artificial muscles on the outer surface of the cavity. Now the walls of the cavity can make small, independent movements to the right and left due to the operation of the drive according to an arbitrary algorithm. In this way, I built an example of a small worm. The worm compresses, unclenches the muscles, and controls the movement of the end walls of the resonator. In this case, the end walls can move relative to the side wall of the cavity independently.
I also launched a single (for example) microwave photon into the resonator and tuned the cavity to some resonance, I got a microwave cavity with a Q factor.
First I turned on the RF power and waited a bit. Then, he allowed the worm to squeeze / unclench its muscles. I mentally observed changes in the momentum on the walls of the cavity and the microwave photon with an interval of time of the order of 1 nanosecond. I recorded the results of the observations in a table.
I don’t know how it is right, if there is an error in the statement of the problem and the observation method, but it seems to me that I see that in this cavity the radiation pressure on the end walls is always different.
Then I go further in my mind and want to see how my worm is trying to use the difference in radiation pressure on the end walls to move in a given direction.
It seems to me that such an algorithm can be universal for the motion of a spaceship, for example, on the end walls, instead of radiation pressure, it is possible to create dynamic Casimir forces. And using fast switching, "crawl through the vacuum." It's like a submarine of Dr. Harold G. White of EW, but she does not swim, she crawls.
Aha! The old "swimming in vacuum" trick!
https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6706
Fine! But I am in a cursory reading (thanks for showing me a wonderful example of bold scientific thought from the treasury of knowledge of a great university) - I do not have time to find an understanding - what physical effect is used here? I will explain my thought. To increase the capacity of hard drives, people consistently applied different physical effects. In the history of the art of engineering, one example is described.
Suppose you want to build a car that can move freely in the thickness of the earth's crust with a speed of 100 km / h. It is clear that you must find a good physical effect for this. For example, a substance that well destroys intermolecular bonds in solid matter.
Is there a description in this paper of the desired physical effect?
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#1505 by Alex_O on 17 Sep, 2019 17:04
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But this is what seems important to me. It seemed to me that in this system there is a variable. The force of radiation pressure on the end walls, which has a period of oscillation at the level of a nanosecond. Or it can be matched at a lower frequency, by controlling the drive of the worm muscles.
No, it isn't important, you keep just jumping to conclusions like that without doing the math. The momentum is balanced, so the device as a whole will not go anywhere. Nothing you do with the "worm muscles" will change that.
Right? If so, this is very important.
I recently saw an insect (spider) running through the water. The spider's legs are on the surface of the water, and surface tension forces act on the spider's legs. Each foot, at the point of contact of water - it does not sink, since the force (and momentum) is balanced. But spiders, using their muscles, it repels from a small area of the space-continuum, where the forces (they are balanced), but where there is more (by analogy with our example) "field strength".
The starship must not violate the law of conservation of momentum. He must learn to build on what we now call physical emptiness.
In other words, our task consists of two stages.
1) We need to learn to create in the void - "field tension." I see a place at the ends of the worm with microwaves - where something is great different from zero. I do not know what is this. There is somehow more Lorentz forces, per unit volume.
Right?
2.) the second stage is to learn how to .. row, crawl, push .. Make a push in the direction of "emptiness".
That's why I turned my attention to Doppler. Subject to other ideas, in particular a report at the SSI 2017 conference -
An Epitaxial Device for Dynamic Interaction with the Vacuum State '
Dr. David C. Hyland -
#1506 by Alex_O on 17 Sep, 2019 17:16
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And using fast switching, "crawl through the vacuum." It's like a submarine of Dr. Harold G. White of EW, but she does not swim, she crawls.
Your worm is also suspended in gravity, and perhaps she is rocking the boat.
Great idea - gravity shakes the boat. Usually, gravity is discussed using a curved trampoline as an example. the rubber fabric bends under the weight of the load. But in zero gravity, this does not work.
But if the surface of the trampoline experiences vibration in itself, like a vibrating table, then everything will work right away. Yes, while the vibrations of the “space-continuum metric” create a physical effect, which we see as a phenomenon - gravity. And yes, the boat will swing by itself. But any vibrator at the bottom of the boat .. there may be options. Where is the main question - about the frequency of vibration of the working body of the machine, the starship engine. It seems to be a very high frequency.
This is not a hypothesis. This is a reflection. -
#1507 by meberbs on 17 Sep, 2019 17:17
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I recently saw an insect (spider) running through the water. The spider's legs are on the surface of the water, and surface tension forces act on the spider's legs. Each foot, at the point of contact of water - it does not sink, since the force (and momentum) is balanced. But spiders, using their muscles, it repels from a small area of the space-continuum, where the forces (they are balanced), but where there is more (by analogy with our example) "field strength".
Spiders do not push on the space-time continuum, they push on the water, and make a bit of the water move in the opposite direction that they move.The starship must not violate the law of conservation of momentum. He must learn to build on what we now call physical emptiness.
If a spacecraft changes velocity, and obeys conservation of momentum, this means that it pushes on something else. Statements that "maybe it pushes on magic nothingness" are a waste of time.1) We need to learn to create in the void - "field tension." I see a place at the ends of the worm with microwaves - where something is great different from zero. I do not know what is this. There is somehow more Lorentz forces, per unit volume.
What you just said appears to be "I don't know what I am talking about, but maybe magic exists." (paraphrasing you, so the "I" represents you in that quote.) If that isn't what you were trying to say, I am not sure what you meant to say. And no, magic does not exist.
Right? -
#1508 by Alex_O on 17 Sep, 2019 18:07
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I recently saw an insect (spider) running through the water. The spider's legs are on the surface of the water, and surface tension forces act on the spider's legs. Each foot, at the point of contact of water - it does not sink, since the force (and momentum) is balanced. But spiders, using their muscles, it repels from a small area of the space-continuum, where the forces (they are balanced), but where there is more (by analogy with our example) "field strength".
Spiders do not push on the space-time continuum, they push on the water, and make a bit of the water move in the opposite direction that they move.The starship must not violate the law of conservation of momentum. He must learn to build on what we now call physical emptiness.
If a spacecraft changes velocity, and obeys conservation of momentum, this means that it pushes on something else. Statements that "maybe it pushes on magic nothingness" are a waste of time.1) We need to learn to create in the void - "field tension." I see a place at the ends of the worm with microwaves - where something is great different from zero. I do not know what is this. There is somehow more Lorentz forces, per unit volume.
What you just said appears to be "I don't know what I am talking about, but maybe magic exists." (paraphrasing you, so the "I" represents you in that quote.) If that isn't what you were trying to say, I am not sure what you meant to say. And no, magic does not exist.
Right?
No no, I did not use the term magic. Although I could show that it’s magic, that when wizards use fairy crystals in fairy tales and extract energy from them, it’s just high-quality resonators, with a quality factor of 1050, for example. And to support the argument by the example of a physical phenomenon, a gravitational wave that is poorly absorbed by matter - that if you build a resonator for gravitational waves - then there will be no energy loss of gravitational waves in the skin layer of the resonator, which means that the quality factor of the gravitational resonator will be many orders of magnitude higher than any microwave resonator. The recovered energy from a magic crystal that is charged with the energy of gravity waves will have the character of a power ray, the sword of the Jedi.
Using the Doppler effect, I saw a good idea for the practical use of the physical properties of a physical vacuum. We can discuss this a bit, it will not be offtopic? -
#1509 by meberbs on 17 Sep, 2019 18:26
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No no, I did not use the term magic.
It is a paraphrase. You talked about something that you "do not know what it is" and has properties contrary to established physics and experiments. Magic is an appropriate term. Most of the rest of your post is complete nonsense.Using the Doppler effect, I saw a good idea for the practical use of the physical properties of a physical vacuum. We can discuss this a bit, it will not be offtopic?
If you have an actual idea to explain the emDrive that can be explained in terms that actually have meaning that would be fine. If you are going to just make meaningless assertions that "the emDrive pushes off the physical vacuum" then you are just wasting time. "Physical vacuum" does not mean anything and could just as easily be replaced with "fairy dust." -
#1510 by Alex_O on 17 Sep, 2019 20:07
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No no, I did not use the term magic.
It is a paraphrase. You talked about something that you "do not know what it is" and has properties contrary to established physics and experiments. Magic is an appropriate term. Most of the rest of your post is complete nonsense.Using the Doppler effect, I saw a good idea for the practical use of the physical properties of a physical vacuum. We can discuss this a bit, it will not be offtopic?
If you have an actual idea to explain the emDrive that can be explained in terms that actually have meaning that would be fine. If you are going to just make meaningless assertions that "the emDrive pushes off the physical vacuum" then you are just wasting time. "Physical vacuum" does not mean anything and could just as easily be replaced with "fairy dust."
OK, I agree with you. This is not politeness, I have been a reader of the NSF forum for a long time, and I have seen a lot of conversations and I understand well what is complete nonsense. I didn’t want to go into the topic of emptiness, magic, etc.
I studied the radiation pressure on the walls of Emdrive. And only that. I saw that the sum of the forces that act on the walls due to radiation pressure (I know that physics is the basis of the Lorentz forces, I gave lectures by Feyman and other textbooks) - that this sum of forces is zero. Moreover, when Shawyer says that the energy stored in the microwave cavity can be converted into the kinetic energy of the forward motion of Emdrive, then there is nothing strange for me. I made a calculation of a "pulsed photon of a rocket", it accumulates photons in the cavity (charging time) and emits a more powerful stream during discharge. (specific thrust is greater, and useful work is less, so there is timing - when the motor does not create thrust). If emdrive is a pulsed photon rocket, then there is nothing good here. Moreover, at the test bench this will be an artifact.
Let's not talk about magic, about emptiness, let's go back a little.QuoteBut this is what seems important to me. It seemed to me that in this system there is a variable. The force of radiation pressure on the end walls, which has a period of oscillation at the level of a nanosecond..
Right?
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#1511 by meberbs on 17 Sep, 2019 20:18
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What are you trying to say here? It has been covered that there is a slight force from the photons opposed to externally applied accelerations, and anything else just cancels out.QuoteBut this is what seems important to me. It seemed to me that in this system there is a variable. The force of radiation pressure on the end walls, which has a period of oscillation at the level of a nanosecond..
Right?
Taking some strange mechanism like motors rapidly moving the end walls won't get you anything.
It seems like the question you are asking is trying to get an answer that indicates there could be something useful there so that you can jump to some other conclusion. There is no potential for anything useful to come out of Doppler shifts and reflections of photons. -
#1512 by Ricvil on 17 Sep, 2019 22:58
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No no, I did not use the term magic.
It is a paraphrase. You talked about something that you "do not know what it is" and has properties contrary to established physics and experiments. Magic is an appropriate term. Most of the rest of your post is complete nonsense.Using the Doppler effect, I saw a good idea for the practical use of the physical properties of a physical vacuum. We can discuss this a bit, it will not be offtopic?
If you have an actual idea to explain the emDrive that can be explained in terms that actually have meaning that would be fine. If you are going to just make meaningless assertions that "the emDrive pushes off the physical vacuum" then you are just wasting time. "Physical vacuum" does not mean anything and could just as easily be replaced with "fairy dust."
OK, I agree with you. This is not politeness, I have been a reader of the NSF forum for a long time, and I have seen a lot of conversations and I understand well what is complete nonsense. I didn’t want to go into the topic of emptiness, magic, etc.
I studied the radiation pressure on the walls of Emdrive. And only that. I saw that the sum of the forces that act on the walls due to radiation pressure (I know that physics is the basis of the Lorentz forces, I gave lectures by Feyman and other textbooks) - that this sum of forces is zero. Moreover, when Shawyer says that the energy stored in the microwave cavity can be converted into the kinetic energy of the forward motion of Emdrive, then there is nothing strange for me. I made a calculation of a "pulsed photon of a rocket", it accumulates photons in the cavity (charging time) and emits a more powerful stream during discharge. (specific thrust is greater, and useful work is less, so there is timing - when the motor does not create thrust). If emdrive is a pulsed photon rocket, then there is nothing good here. Moreover, at the test bench this will be an artifact.
Let's not talk about magic, about emptiness, let's go back a little.QuoteBut this is what seems important to me. It seemed to me that in this system there is a variable. The force of radiation pressure on the end walls, which has a period of oscillation at the level of a nanosecond..
Right?
Hi Alex_O
Take a look at equation 4.28 from this paper, page 31.
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0501230v1
May be useful...or not.
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#1513 by Alex_O on 18 Sep, 2019 08:10
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What are you trying to say here? It has been covered that there is a slight force from the photons opposed to externally applied accelerations, and anything else just cancels out.QuoteBut this is what seems important to me. It seemed to me that in this system there is a variable. The force of radiation pressure on the end walls, which has a period of oscillation at the level of a nanosecond..
Right?
Taking some strange mechanism like motors rapidly moving the end walls won't get you anything.
It seems like the question you are asking is trying to get an answer that indicates there could be something useful there so that you can jump to some other conclusion. There is no potential for anything useful to come out of Doppler shifts and reflections of photons.
Thank you, I will try again to make a list for approval:
1. I see the pressure drop on the walls, and remember how the lifting force of the wing is created.
2. I see how a photon changes its frequency, I recall the wave properties of a photon, the critical section of a waveguide and something else, and I have a problem. A photon (for example, reflected from the right wall), turned red or purple, and ... fell out of resonance.
What does it mean? What if he reaches the left wall (on average) his energy will be different? More precisely, it will not fly “in phase”, or maybe it just “will not creep” into a narrow / wide neck ?. A simple idea - everything was fine on the right wall, but a problem arose on the left. It will create more! more differential pressure drop.
3. I see a new wave in the resonator that betrays an additional impulse from the end walls, and I want to understand its parameters. Is that a standing wave too? Or can it be a traveling wave?
4. If the resonator is started (slowly) in motion once by an external force (hammer), then I mentally see how the "hump" moves. Well, all these photons, they are like a hump of a sea wave - they move slowly. Is this a real wave? On it you can .. ride?
5. I see the difference in radiation pressure on the walls of the resonator and I think to compare this with the Lorentz forces between two wires with current. I think there is a big difference. Very big. (The wires emitted EM waves when the Lorentz force changed "around them")
6. I remember the concept of a plane wave. Is there a plane photon wave in the cavity? Can it have a special reflection path between the walls?
7. I like Maxwell's demons, I remember plasma antennas and think about virtual mirrors, walls, etc. About the effects of total internal reflection, about Fedorov’s lateral shift .. In general, I don’t have a brake in my brain, I can come up with a plasma mirror that oscillates (left / right) without mechanical movement. Those. this mirror has no inertia / mass and I wonder - what next? I removed the harmful mechanical properties, but retained the EM properties.
7.1 No need for demons, what will happen if an electrode is added to Emdrive (grid from the triode). And quickly quickly turn on / off the potential of the electric field on the grid. For a fraction of a nanosecond. Photons will hit from the grid and will not be able to fly from the right wall to the left. Mentally, I see how this thing "starts up" and I will hear - boom!
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#1514 by meberbs on 18 Sep, 2019 14:14
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1. I see the pressure drop on the walls, and remember how the lifting force of the wing is created.
Wat pressure drop?
A wing is not a useful analogy for what is happening here.
You are being extremely vague to the point that you aren't stating anything meaningful.2. I see how a photon changes its frequency, I recall the wave properties of a photon, the critical section of a waveguide and something else, and I have a problem. A photon (for example, reflected from the right wall), turned red or purple, and ... fell out of resonance.
Still being vague where there appears to be almost no meaning in your statements.
What does it mean? What if he reaches the left wall (on average) his energy will be different? More precisely, it will not fly “in phase”, or maybe it just “will not creep” into a narrow / wide neck ?. A simple idea - everything was fine on the right wall, but a problem arose on the left. It will create more! more differential pressure drop.
To the extent that what you are saying has any meaning, it is simply incorrect. For a moving cavity, a redshift on one end matches with a blue shift on the other and there isn't actually problem with resonance.There doesn't seem to be a point in me going into any further detail since it seems you would just ignore it anyway.3. I see a new wave in the resonator that betrays an additional impulse from the end walls, and I want to understand its parameters. Is that a standing wave too? Or can it be a traveling wave?
Now you appear to be just completely making things up, and there appears to be no coherent connection from one bullet point to the next.
I won't go through the rest of your bullets in detail, because they are all just as wrong and/or meaningless as these were. Some are even worse where you describe things that are directly contradictory. Claiming that a "plasma" could move without moving. A plasma is still a physical state of matter, and if it moves that means it moves, saying otherwise is obviously contradictory. -
#1515 by Alex_O on 18 Sep, 2019 20:18
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1. I see the pressure drop on the walls, and remember how the lifting force of the wing is created.
Wat pressure drop?
A wing is not a useful analogy for what is happening here.
You are being extremely vague to the point that you aren't stating anything meaningful.2. I see how a photon changes its frequency, I recall the wave properties of a photon, the critical section of a waveguide and something else, and I have a problem. A photon (for example, reflected from the right wall), turned red or purple, and ... fell out of resonance.
Still being vague where there appears to be almost no meaning in your statements.
What does it mean? What if he reaches the left wall (on average) his energy will be different? More precisely, it will not fly “in phase”, or maybe it just “will not creep” into a narrow / wide neck ?. A simple idea - everything was fine on the right wall, but a problem arose on the left. It will create more! more differential pressure drop.
To the extent that what you are saying has any meaning, it is simply incorrect. For a moving cavity, a redshift on one end matches with a blue shift on the other and there isn't actually problem with resonance.There doesn't seem to be a point in me going into any further detail since it seems you would just ignore it anyway.3. I see a new wave in the resonator that betrays an additional impulse from the end walls, and I want to understand its parameters. Is that a standing wave too? Or can it be a traveling wave?
Now you appear to be just completely making things up, and there appears to be no coherent connection from one bullet point to the next.
I won't go through the rest of your bullets in detail, because they are all just as wrong and/or meaningless as these were. Some are even worse where you describe things that are directly contradictory. Claiming that a "plasma" could move without moving. A plasma is still a physical state of matter, and if it moves that means it moves, saying otherwise is obviously contradictory.
OK, I just could not describe everything simply and clearly, and you did not understand me. I will try again tomorrow. While I mention plasma mirrors, I was thinking about solid-state plasma antennas (for example
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20827904-600-wireless-at-the-speed-of-plasma/)QuotePSiAN consists of thousands of diodes on a silicon chip. When activated, each diode generates a cloud of electrons - the plasma - about 0.1 millimetres across. At a high enough electron density, each cloud reflects high-frequency radio waves like a mirror.
My thought sometimes works too fast, I mentally built a chip with legs of diodes of different lengths, for example, two types of lengths of legs. This will ignite the plasma layer at different distances from the surface of the chip. And then I screwed these microcircuits to Emdrive end. As a result, I mentally manage to create a plasma layer, like a mirror, at different distances from the end of the resonator and so on.
I turn on and off different plasma layers, and I do it quickly, so that the effective cavity length decreases in size faster than the speed of light, and I do not have the translational motion of large masses, thick walls, etc.
Just power on and off
In Section 3, I saw that photons after reflection with the Doppler effect carry an additional momentum dp, and these dp, if we compare it with a stationary resonator, look like the movement of a “wave over photons”, where the photons are carriers of this wave (from dp) . I don’t know if this can be useful, but there is a transfer of momentum and energy, which means it can do the job.
In Section 1 - everything is simple. Emdrive has two bottoms, if at any moment of time different radiation pressures arise on these surfaces, then we can discuss the lifting force of Zhukovsky (wing). (as in an old airplane, such as a biplane).
I remember the term - plasma instabilities and think about the term "photon instability." When the TT launches the emdrive in flight (with the initial push), photonic instabilities develop in it, and this creates an analogue of Zhukovsky’s force)
I would like to continue the search for an idea for Emdrive's work in the framework of ordinary physics. Since I saw a huge number of ideas in new physics, and these are all separate conversations, verification experiments there are complicated and expensive. I can show good theoretical work on new physics, but it is difficult to discuss. -
#1516 by meberbs on 18 Sep, 2019 21:26
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OK, I just could not describe everything simply and clearly, and you did not understand me. I will try again tomorrow. While I mention plasma mirrors, I was thinking about solid-state plasma antennas (for example
No, the main issue is that you haven't seemed to understand a single thing I have said.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20827904-600-wireless-at-the-speed-of-plasma/)
You most recent post both oversimplified (for example you talked about a "pressure drop" without explaining anything about the situation that c=would be causing this, such as whether there is a cavity that is moving or accelerating.) and you also overcomplicated things by bringing up things like these plasma antennas that do not work the way you seem to think, and even if they did, would not be needed for the things you are describing.In Section 3, I saw that photons after reflection with the Doppler effect carry an additional momentum dp, and these dp, if we compare it with a stationary resonator, look like the movement of a “wave over photons”, where the photons are carriers of this wave (from dp) . I don’t know if this can be useful, but there is a transfer of momentum and energy, which means it can do the job.
No, it cannot be useful, because the energy/momentum transfer is internal and to photons that are trapped inside the cavity. I am running out of ways to say this, no matter how much you try to obscure it with complicated examples, momentum will always be conserved which means that the center of energy (relativistic center of mass) will not change.In Section 1 - everything is simple. Emdrive has two bottoms, if at any moment of time different radiation pressures arise on these surfaces, then we can discuss the lifting force of Zhukovsky (wing). (as in an old airplane, such as a biplane).
1. That is nothing like a wing
2. Any difference simply transfers equivalent momentum to the photons inside the cavity, preventing this from providing self-acceleration.I would like to continue the search for an idea for Emdrive's work in the framework of ordinary physics. Since I saw a huge number of ideas in new physics, and these are all separate conversations, verification experiments there are complicated and expensive. I can show good theoretical work on new physics, but it is difficult to discuss.
The emDrive cannot work in existing physics. It is a self-contradictory statement, equivalent to claiming that 1+1 = 3. Existing physics all is known to perfectly conserve momentum. According to conservation of momentum the center of mass (or center of energy in special relativity) does not change velocity unless something external to the system pushes on it, or something leaves the system. -
#1517 by Mark7777777 on 19 Sep, 2019 00:50
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OK, I just could not describe everything simply and clearly, and you did not understand me. I will try again tomorrow. While I mention plasma mirrors, I was thinking about solid-state plasma antennas (for example
No, the main issue is that you haven't seemed to understand a single thing I have said.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20827904-600-wireless-at-the-speed-of-plasma/)
You most recent post both oversimplified (for example you talked about a "pressure drop" without explaining anything about the situation that c=would be causing this, such as whether there is a cavity that is moving or accelerating.) and you also overcomplicated things by bringing up things like these plasma antennas that do not work the way you seem to think, and even if they did, would not be needed for the things you are describing.In Section 3, I saw that photons after reflection with the Doppler effect carry an additional momentum dp, and these dp, if we compare it with a stationary resonator, look like the movement of a “wave over photons”, where the photons are carriers of this wave (from dp) . I don’t know if this can be useful, but there is a transfer of momentum and energy, which means it can do the job.
No, it cannot be useful, because the energy/momentum transfer is internal and to photons that are trapped inside the cavity. I am running out of ways to say this, no matter how much you try to obscure it with complicated examples, momentum will always be conserved which means that the center of energy (relativistic center of mass) will not change.In Section 1 - everything is simple. Emdrive has two bottoms, if at any moment of time different radiation pressures arise on these surfaces, then we can discuss the lifting force of Zhukovsky (wing). (as in an old airplane, such as a biplane).
1. That is nothing like a wing
2. Any difference simply transfers equivalent momentum to the photons inside the cavity, preventing this from providing self-acceleration.I would like to continue the search for an idea for Emdrive's work in the framework of ordinary physics. Since I saw a huge number of ideas in new physics, and these are all separate conversations, verification experiments there are complicated and expensive. I can show good theoretical work on new physics, but it is difficult to discuss.
The emDrive cannot work in existing physics. It is a self-contradictory statement, equivalent to claiming that 1+1 = 3. Existing physics all is known to perfectly conserve momentum. According to conservation of momentum the center of mass (or center of energy in special relativity) does not change velocity unless something external to the system pushes on it, or something leaves the system.
Hello meberbs
From all your post responses over the years in this an other NSF threads, I was thinking you seem to have exceptional knowledge of many of the topics discussed and also put in a lot of effort giving very timely and comprehensive responses which I think many people here would like to thank you for.
The next question I think people may guess is, is there any way to harness all that talent and effort into creating a solution to get high-speed (propellant-less?) space drives that you can see? Or have you, or are you currently working on anything either theoretically or in prototype?
Kind regards
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#1518 by meberbs on 19 Sep, 2019 03:53
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Hello meberbs
The number one best solution that is known for an interstellar drive would be a photon rocket powered by a matter/anti-matter reaction. A Bussard ramjet, which uses the hydrogen in the interstellar medium to both power a fusion reaction and as reaction mass could potentially compete, especially since we don't actually know how to efficiently make large quantities of anti-matter.
From all your post responses over the years in this an other NSF threads, I was thinking you seem to have exceptional knowledge of many of the topics discussed and also put in a lot of effort giving very timely and comprehensive responses which I think many people here would like to thank you for.
The next question I think people may guess is, is there any way to harness all that talent and effort into creating a solution to get high-speed (propellant-less?) space drives that you can see? Or have you, or are you currently working on anything either theoretically or in prototype?
Kind regards
Other things may be possible in the more near term, such as a laser using multiple reflections off a retroreflector on the moon, or possibly in some other orbit attached to a relatively large mass. A solar sail concept has already been demonstrated as well, though that is more limited in speed, but useful in some cases.
As for really new physics ideas, if we stumbled upon true negative mass (negative energy density over a finite region) there would be all sorts of applications, from straight up free-energy and self propelling devices to wormholes and the like. The shear number of crazy things this would allow makes this seem improbable, especially given what we know so far.
More plausible, if it turns out that there is a way to interact with dark matter other than through gravity, that could help, but the local density of dark matter isn't actually all that high, and right now it looks like there probably isn't any way to interact with it.
Relying even more on luck, it is possible that something new and useful is discovered from some high energy particle physics experiment. The standard model seems really stubborn though, so I don't think many physicists truly expect to find something new until we get to levels that actually test quantum gravity (I could be wrong here). Quantum gravity itself is too far from experimentally practical for me to make any predictions about.
Some completely unpredictable new effect could be discovered at some point, however pretty much anything that you can do at home is a realm of physics that has been tested to death, and there just isn't room for anything new. If something does come up for propellantless propulsion, what would be really needed is something that sets a universal reference frame, so that you can measure the speed of the Earth moving through it. The CMB is a real example, but all it can do is slow you down slightly if you are moving at relativistic speeds relative to it. We would need something to actually push off of.
I am not working on any of the above, the closest related thing I have is a personal side project to consider a potential Earth launch idea, which we probably are a couple decades away from being practical, and that may actually be obsolete before then due to other Earth launch advancements in reusability. -
#1519 by Alex_O on 19 Sep, 2019 05:31
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OK, I understand all your arguments, and it's hard for me to answer. I prepared a simulation, this is not a complete picture, but you can start. Look here please. This is the best model of emdrive, as there is a resonator (horizontal cavity), and a photon source, a vertical waveguide, is visible. When I change the length of the resonator, we see how everything changes. In figure e1 we see the E field. In Figure E1 we see the radiation pressure on the surface in the system.OK, I just could not describe everything simply and clearly, and you did not understand me. I will try again tomorrow. While I mention plasma mirrors, I was thinking about solid-state plasma antennas (for example
No, the main issue is that you haven't seemed to understand a single thing I have said.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20827904-600-wireless-at-the-speed-of-plasma/)
You most recent post both oversimplified (for example you talked about a "pressure drop" without explaining anything about the situation that c=would be causing this, such as whether there is a cavity that is moving or accelerating.) and you also overcomplicated things by bringing up things like these plasma antennas that do not work the way you seem to think, and even if they did, would not be needed for the things you are describing.In Section 3, I saw that photons after reflection with the Doppler effect carry an additional momentum dp, and these dp, if we compare it with a stationary resonator, look like the movement of a “wave over photons”, where the photons are carriers of this wave (from dp) . I don’t know if this can be useful, but there is a transfer of momentum and energy, which means it can do the job.
No, it cannot be useful, because the energy/momentum transfer is internal and to photons that are trapped inside the cavity. I am running out of ways to say this, no matter how much you try to obscure it with complicated examples, momentum will always be conserved which means that the center of energy (relativistic center of mass) will not change.In Section 1 - everything is simple. Emdrive has two bottoms, if at any moment of time different radiation pressures arise on these surfaces, then we can discuss the lifting force of Zhukovsky (wing). (as in an old airplane, such as a biplane).
1. That is nothing like a wing
2. Any difference simply transfers equivalent momentum to the photons inside the cavity, preventing this from providing self-acceleration.I would like to continue the search for an idea for Emdrive's work in the framework of ordinary physics. Since I saw a huge number of ideas in new physics, and these are all separate conversations, verification experiments there are complicated and expensive. I can show good theoretical work on new physics, but it is difficult to discuss.
The emDrive cannot work in existing physics. It is a self-contradictory statement, equivalent to claiming that 1+1 = 3. Existing physics all is known to perfectly conserve momentum. According to conservation of momentum the center of mass (or center of energy in special relativity) does not change velocity unless something external to the system pushes on it, or something leaves the system.
