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#1440
by
TheTraveller
on 09 Sep, 2019 06:01
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Just maybe there is a new to physics effect in play here?
Nothing that violates CofM, CofE or N3. Just not what we expect in the normal world of mass to mass momentum exchange.
What is clear is cavity acceleration, via an initial external method, will generate internal differential Doppler shifts at the 2 end plates, generating differential radiation pressure, which generates, as Roger calls it, a Thrust force, a net EM wave sourced momentum transfer, toward the big end. Nothing there outside physics.
What is needed is experimental data to confirm or not that the above precursor events give rise to the existence of the internal small end directed Reaction force, causing cavity acceleration and balancing cavity momentum gain from that lost by the EM wave, being the N3 balancing force pair to the internal big end directed Thrust force.
Hopefully by early next year, there will be new experimental data, generated by the, at least 3, Flight Thruster replicant testers, to assist further analysis of this new proposed small end directed Reaction force effect.
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#1441
by
meberbs
on 09 Sep, 2019 06:25
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Just maybe there is a new to physics effect in play here?
It is refreshing to see you acknowledge at least this much, since emDrive working is simply not possible under known physics, it would have to be something new.
Nothing that violates CofM, CofE or N3. Just not what we expect in the normal world of mass to mass momentum exchange.
See previous question you repeatedly ignored (Where you consider the total momentum of everything after the emDrive is turned off). If the emDrive can move anywhere, it violates conservation of momentum unless you can point to something else that is moving in the opposite direction.
What is clear is cavity acceleration, via an initial external method, will generate internal differential Doppler shifts at the 2 end plates, generating differential radiation pressure, which generates, as Roger calls it, a Thrust force, a net EM wave sourced momentum transfer, toward the big end. Nothing there outside physics.
Yes.
What is needed is experimental data to confirm or not that the above precursor events give rise to the existence of the internal small end directed Reaction force, causing cavity acceleration and balancing cavity momentum gain from that lost by the EM wave, being the N3 balancing force pair to the internal big end directed Thrust force.
That makes no sense. The EM waves gain momentum towards the small end while the pushing the cavity the other direction, which is how momentum is balanced and Newton's laws are satisfied. (Since there is an external force causing the cavity to accelerate small end forward, the momentum transfer with the EM waves just slows the acceleration of the cavity by a small amount.) Adding an extra force would break Newton's laws. Since the cavity is moving forward due to the external acceleration, the photons also need the extra forward momentum to be moving with the cavity. (Rather than having net 0 momentum, which they would as viewed from a frame where the cavity is stationary.)
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#1442
by
TheTraveller
on 09 Sep, 2019 08:18
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Have done 2 long haul flights to the UK and the US in the last few months to personally meet with Roger Shawyer, Mike McCulloch & 2 of the Flight Thruster testers.
Will shortly do another long haul to the US to meet with Roger & the 3 Flight Thruster tester to sort out the details.
Not doing this because I wish the results to be positive. I'm doing this because I know the EmDrive works and to minimize variables occurring during the testing programs.
Roger released the data because he knows I will fund the various builds & tests, assist with the test setups, with the validity of his EmDrive invention finally proven beyond question.
The next step is then to work on theory verification, such as measurement data that during acceleration the trapped photons wavelengths progressively increase, ie their energy & momentum loss, wavelength increase, closely match that gained by the accelerating cavity. Once that is proven, then questions about CofM and CofE conservation are ended.
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#1443
by
meberbs
on 09 Sep, 2019 15:02
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The next step is then to work on theory verification, such as measurement data that during acceleration the trapped photons wavelengths progressively increase, ie their energy & momentum loss, wavelength increase, closely match that gained by the accelerating cavity. Once that is proven, then questions about CofM and CofE conservation are ended.
You are describing properties of individual photons in a system with countless photons while more are being continuously added. There is noway to make direct measurements of the things you are talking about.
Even if there were, no answer could resolve the conservation of momentum or energy problem. The photons are produced from an antenna inside the cavity, never leave the cavity or interact with anything outside the cavity. Claiming they somehow get net momentum other than from slowing the cavity a minuscule amount when an external force is applied to the cavity breaks conservation of momentum. The clearest way to see this is to let the photons get re-absorbed after the drive is turned off and add up all of the momentum. Why do you refuse to consider this simple case?
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#1444
by
Bryan_Kelly
on 09 Sep, 2019 15:54
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Just maybe there is a new to physics effect in play here?
Now that's an interesting thought.
I see no need to remain constrained by our current ignorance and incomplete mathematics when a little tinkering and re-framing might change the entire landscape.
Keep at it. I applaud your efforts and perseverance.
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#1445
by
Bob012345
on 09 Sep, 2019 19:38
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The next step is then to work on theory verification, such as measurement data that during acceleration the trapped photons wavelengths progressively increase, ie their energy & momentum loss, wavelength increase, closely match that gained by the accelerating cavity. Once that is proven, then questions about CofM and CofE conservation are ended.
You are describing properties of individual photons in a system with countless photons while more are being continuously added. There is noway to make direct measurements of the things you are talking about.
Even if there were, no answer could resolve the conservation of momentum or energy problem. The photons are produced from an antenna inside the cavity, never leave the cavity or interact with anything outside the cavity. Claiming they somehow get net momentum other than from slowing the cavity a minuscule amount when an external force is applied to the cavity breaks conservation of momentum. The clearest way to see this is to let the photons get re-absorbed after the drive is turned off and add up all of the momentum. Why do you refuse to consider this simple case?
If it works we can let the physicists debate why (and they will) and build spaceships.
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#1446
by
Bob012345
on 09 Sep, 2019 19:45
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Just maybe there is a new to physics effect in play here?
It is refreshing to see you acknowledge at least this much, since emDrive working is simply not possible under known physics, it would have to be something new.
Or a new, deeper understanding of established physics perhaps at the intersections of EM, quantum, Relativity or Cosmology for example. It doesn't have to rewrite all of physics.
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#1447
by
RotoSequence
on 09 Sep, 2019 19:52
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Just maybe there is a new to physics effect in play here?
It is refreshing to see you acknowledge at least this much, since emDrive working is simply not possible under known physics, it would have to be something new.
Or a new, deeper understanding of established physics perhaps at the intersections of EM, quantum, Relativity or Cosmology for example. It doesn't have to rewrite all of physics.
You've got your work cut out for you if the proposed new physics stands in apparent contradiction to Noether's Theorem.
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#1448
by
meberbs
on 09 Sep, 2019 20:02
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The next step is then to work on theory verification, such as measurement data that during acceleration the trapped photons wavelengths progressively increase, ie their energy & momentum loss, wavelength increase, closely match that gained by the accelerating cavity. Once that is proven, then questions about CofM and CofE conservation are ended.
You are describing properties of individual photons in a system with countless photons while more are being continuously added. There is noway to make direct measurements of the things you are talking about.
Even if there were, no answer could resolve the conservation of momentum or energy problem. The photons are produced from an antenna inside the cavity, never leave the cavity or interact with anything outside the cavity. Claiming they somehow get net momentum other than from slowing the cavity a minuscule amount when an external force is applied to the cavity breaks conservation of momentum. The clearest way to see this is to let the photons get re-absorbed after the drive is turned off and add up all of the momentum. Why do you refuse to consider this simple case?
If it works we can let the physicists debate why (and they will) and build spaceships.
Suggesting an impossible to perform experiment, and to try to demonstrate something that is self-contradictory is a waste of effort on multiple levels. Reasonable next steps would be ones that actually characterize the behavior of the device, though given the results so far, it does not seem likely that the first step of "show there is an actual force" would happen.
Also, free energy generators are a much more straightforward use than building spaceships and is a much more logical first application.
Just maybe there is a new to physics effect in play here?
It is refreshing to see you acknowledge at least this much, since emDrive working is simply not possible under known physics, it would have to be something new.
Or a new, deeper understanding of established physics perhaps at the intersections of EM, quantum, Relativity or Cosmology for example. It doesn't have to rewrite all of physics.
I didn't say that it would rewrite all of physics, but the minimum level is something like "interactions between photons and a previously unknown medium" that somehow does not significantly interfere with any of the countless technologies that rely on electromagnetism.
Your list including EM, quantum, and relativity is odd. EM and relativity have been perfectly married from the beginning. QED is a well understood theory that has been proven, and brings relativity into quantum. There really aren't edges between them to slip new physics into. It would have to be something beyond them.
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#1449
by
TheTraveller
on 10 Sep, 2019 00:20
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The next step is then to work on theory verification, such as measurement data that during acceleration the trapped photons wavelengths progressively increase, ie their energy & momentum loss, wavelength increase, closely match that gained by the accelerating cavity. Once that is proven, then questions about CofM and CofE conservation are ended.
You are describing properties of individual photons in a system with countless photons while more are being continuously added. There is noway to make direct measurements of the things you are talking about.
Even if there were, no answer could resolve the conservation of momentum or energy problem. The photons are produced from an antenna inside the cavity, never leave the cavity or interact with anything outside the cavity. Claiming they somehow get net momentum other than from slowing the cavity a minuscule amount when an external force is applied to the cavity breaks conservation of momentum. The clearest way to see this is to let the photons get re-absorbed after the drive is turned off and add up all of the momentum. Why do you refuse to consider this simple case?
EmDrives operate in pulsed mode, with the fill pulse being 5 x the TC of the cavity. Sometime shorter than 5 x TC, but that is another story.
TC = Qu / (2 * Pi * Freq)
Also defined as the time the forward power takes to reach 63.2% of the final value, assuming 1:1 coupling factor.
Interesting fact is measuring the time for forward power to reach 63.2% can be used to calc the cavities working Q.
Once the input pulse is complete, a spectrum scanner, using a monitoring port, can record the increasing wavelength of the photons as the cavity accelerates, gaining KE & momentum, and the 5 x TC decay time reduces from the non accelerating value, because of some of the cavity energy being converted into accelerative KE & momentum.
BTW in the G2 & G3 EmDrives, the small end plate is mounted on piezo elements to allow the cavity length to increase as the photon wavelength increases during cavity acceleration. Not required for G1 EmDrives such as the Flight Thruster due to much lower Q.
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#1450
by
Bryan_Kelly
on 10 Sep, 2019 01:46
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Or a new, deeper understanding of established physics perhaps at the intersections of EM, quantum, Relativity or Cosmology for example. It doesn't have to rewrite all of physics.
I'd add gravity to that list too, since it interacts with both light and matter.
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#1451
by
meberbs
on 10 Sep, 2019 02:41
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EmDrives operate in pulsed mode, with the fill pulse being 5 x the TC of the cavity. Sometime shorter than 5 x TC, but that is another story.
TC = Qu / (2 * Pi * Freq)
Also defined as the time the forward power takes to reach 63.2% of the final value, assuming 1:1 coupling factor.
Interesting fact is measuring the time for forward power to reach 63.2% can be used to calc the cavities working Q.
Once the input pulse is complete, a spectrum scanner, using a monitoring port, can record the increasing wavelength of the photons as the cavity accelerates, gaining KE & momentum, and the 5 x TC decay time reduces from the non accelerating value, because of some of the cavity energy being converted into accelerative KE & momentum.
Momentum is a quantity that has direction associated with it. Since photons are travelling in opposite directions in the cavity, the momentum cancels out for the most part. You cannot get information about momentum from such an experiment that just measures spectrum. You don't even get the correct spectrum shifts anyway, because the antenna in the cavity is co-moving with the cavity, so you do not measure the frequencies in the lab frame which is what you actually need to measure when talking conservation laws.
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#1452
by
TheTraveller
on 10 Sep, 2019 10:29
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EmDrives operate in pulsed mode, with the fill pulse being 5 x the TC of the cavity. Sometime shorter than 5 x TC, but that is another story.
TC = Qu / (2 * Pi * Freq)
Also defined as the time the forward power takes to reach 63.2% of the final value, assuming 1:1 coupling factor.
Interesting fact is measuring the time for forward power to reach 63.2% can be used to calc the cavities working Q.
Once the input pulse is complete, a spectrum scanner, using a monitoring port, can record the increasing wavelength of the photons as the cavity accelerates, gaining KE & momentum, and the 5 x TC decay time reduces from the non accelerating value, because of some of the cavity energy being converted into accelerative KE & momentum.
You don't even get the correct spectrum shifts anyway, because the antenna in the cavity is co-moving with the cavity, so you do not measure the frequencies in the lab frame which is what you actually need to measure when talking conservation laws.
Measuring increasing photon wavelength during acceleration is measured AFTER the input RF pulse has stopped. Ie no new photons being created by the coupler/antenna. Cavity is now in decay mode, with wall losses, coupler losses & KE transfer losses reducing cavity stored energy on a cycle by cycle basic.
Easiest way to measure increasing photon wavelength is to limit RF input pulse width to 20% of 1 TC. Ie 25 times shorter than full cavity fill pulse length.
BTW the sense coupler, providing photon wavelength data to the spectrum analyser is attached to the side wall of the accelerative cavity, thus sensing what is happening to the photon wavelengths inside the accelerating cavity. Ie it is in the frame of the accelerating cavity.
In the Gen2 & Gen2 superconducting EmDrives, the real time increasing wavelength data, can then be used to adjust the piezo elements, to move the small end plate away from the big end plate, to increase the cavity length, to maintain resonance as photon wavelength increases.
All part of the same effect that causes photon wavelength to increase as the accelerating cavity gains KE & momentum and the trapped photons to lose a matching amount of energy & momentum as their wavelength, on emission, increase. Nothing more than standard radiation pressure physics.
Is what makes solar sails & EmDrive work.
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#1453
by
meberbs
on 10 Sep, 2019 14:22
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You don't even get the correct spectrum shifts anyway, because the antenna in the cavity is co-moving with the cavity, so you do not measure the frequencies in the lab frame which is what you actually need to measure when talking conservation laws.
Measuring increasing photon wavelength during acceleration is measured AFTER the input RF pulse has stopped. Ie no new photons being created by the coupler/antenna. Cavity is now in decay mode, with wall losses, coupler losses & KE transfer losses reducing cavity stored energy on a cycle by cycle basic.
You deleted part of my post, and completely ignored it. (This is a problem because the style of quoting you did without any trimming of the old quote tree makes it look like you didn't do any editing at first glance.)
What you are saying here does nothing to address anything that I said anyway. In fact you go on to admit that what I said is correct: you measure the frequencies based on an antenna (that is what a coupler is) that is co-moving with the cavity, and thus it does not provide the spectrum in the lab frame needed to talk about conservation laws:
BTW the sense coupler, providing photon wavelength data to the spectrum analyser is attached to the side wall of the accelerative cavity, thus sensing what is happening to the photon wavelengths inside the accelerating cavity. Ie it is in the frame of the accelerating cavity.
Even if you had a magic device to work around this, you still couldn't change the fact that you wouldn't be measuring the net momentum inside the cavity, since photons are travelling in different directions.
All part of the same effect that causes photon wavelength to increase as the accelerating cavity gains KE & momentum and the trapped photons to lose a matching amount of energy & momentum as their wavelength, on emission, increase. Nothing more than standard radiation pressure physics.
Is what makes solar sails & EmDrive work.
Your post has a correct diagram attached to it for a change, as it shows what is labelled as "reaction force" in the direction the mirror is accelerated, and it shows "momentum change" of the photon in the opposite direction. (where there are extra lines indicating how to do vector subtraction.)
This of course completely contradicts your claims that the cavity would accelerate towards the opposite direction of the force applied by the photons due to radiation pressure.
If you are not going to ever
acknowledge that I answered your questions and explained what happens in a cavity accelerating under external force (and I also asked you related simple follow up questions which you refuse to answer), then at least stop spamming your backwards explanation claiming that an object would ever accelerate in the opposite direction of the net force applied to it.
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#1454
by
dustinthewind
on 10 Sep, 2019 14:23
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EmDrives operate in pulsed mode, with the fill pulse being 5 x the TC of the cavity. Sometime shorter than 5 x TC, but that is another story.
TC = Qu / (2 * Pi * Freq)
Also defined as the time the forward power takes to reach 63.2% of the final value, assuming 1:1 coupling factor.
Interesting fact is measuring the time for forward power to reach 63.2% can be used to calc the cavities working Q.
Once the input pulse is complete, a spectrum scanner, using a monitoring port, can record the increasing wavelength of the photons as the cavity accelerates, gaining KE & momentum, and the 5 x TC decay time reduces from the non accelerating value, because of some of the cavity energy being converted into accelerative KE & momentum.
You don't even get the correct spectrum shifts anyway, because the antenna in the cavity is co-moving with the cavity, so you do not measure the frequencies in the lab frame which is what you actually need to measure when talking conservation laws.
Measuring increasing photon wavelength during acceleration is measured AFTER the input RF pulse has stopped. Ie no new photons being created by the coupler/antenna. Cavity is now in decay mode, with wall losses, coupler losses & KE transfer losses reducing cavity stored energy on a cycle by cycle basic.
Easiest way to measure increasing photon wavelength is to limit RF input pulse width to 20% of 1 TC. Ie 25 times shorter than full cavity fill pulse length.
BTW the sense coupler, providing photon wavelength data to the spectrum analyser is attached to the side wall of the accelerative cavity, thus sensing what is happening to the photon wavelengths inside the accelerating cavity. Ie it is in the frame of the accelerating cavity.
In the Gen2 & Gen2 superconducting EmDrives, the real time increasing wavelength data, can then be used to adjust the piezo elements, to move the small end plate away from the big end plate, to increase the cavity length, to maintain resonance as photon wavelength increases.
All part of the same effect that causes photon wavelength to increase as the accelerating cavity gains KE & momentum and the trapped photons to lose a matching amount of energy & momentum as their wavelength, on emission, increase. Nothing more than standard radiation pressure physics.
Is what makes solar sails & EmDrive work.
That 20% pulse width of radiation would have to be enough to break the friction of the rotary systems such that the cavity actually moves. if that small amount of radiation can't even break the friction than the cavity doesn't even actually accelerate. if the cavity doesn't even actually accelerate than you can't really claim that's what's Doppler shifting the photons.
You would have to claim the the photons are actually accelerating something else. Something escaping the cavity if you want momentum conservation.
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#1455
by
Alex_O
on 10 Sep, 2019 17:52
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It does not work out for you dear comrades and TT to explain where the emdrive engine thrust comes from. I also tried (many times) - and could not. Let's do it again . Superconducting accelerator TESLA. Microphone effect. The radiation pressure in the SC resonator is so great (with an E-field of the order of 100-150 MV / m) that it causes noticeable mechanical deformation of the walls of the corrugated resonator, which gives a microphone effect. I have a link to a monograph in Russian, to Didenko.
So, point 1. - the radiation pressure forces in the resonator are large, and for a high-quality copper resonator they can be measured in fractions of Newton. The pressure strength depends on the quality of the resonator, on the quality factor.
point 1 Agreed?
Now place the resonator in the accelerated reference system. What will happen? Does Maskwell's electrodynamics have formulas for accelerated frames? Maybe it reminds the guy that they will accelerate on the board, catch up with the sea wave and have fun on the crest of a small path? Ride a wave? I probably see this a little wrong, but let's agree on point 1?
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#1456
by
meberbs
on 10 Sep, 2019 18:01
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Now place the resonator in the accelerated reference system. What will happen? Does Maskwell's electrodynamics have formulas for accelerated frames?
It does not make sense to place something in an "accelerated" reference frame. a reference frame is just where you do the calculations. It is almost certainly possible to reformulate Maxwell's equations in an accelerating frame, but it would not be particularly enlightening.
Instead, it is more useful to just take a single inertial frame and do the calculations about the accelerating object from there. As I have previously described, this simply gives the result that the EM waves in the cavity simply resist the externally applied acceleration of the cavity by a small amount since their energy is included in the mass-energy of the cavity according to E = m*c^2.
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#1457
by
Alex_O
on 10 Sep, 2019 18:48
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Now place the resonator in the accelerated reference system. What will happen? Does Maskwell's electrodynamics have formulas for accelerated frames?
It does not make sense to place something in an "accelerated" reference frame. a reference frame is just where you do the calculations. It is almost certainly possible to reformulate Maxwell's equations in an accelerating frame, but it would not be particularly enlightening.
Instead, it is more useful to just take a single inertial frame and do the calculations about the accelerating object from there. As I have previously described, this simply gives the result that the EM waves in the cavity simply resist the externally applied acceleration of the cavity by a small amount since their energy is included in the mass-energy of the cavity according to E = m*c^2.
I think I came up with! Take a simple parabolic antenna and place it on a trolley. Let it shine with EM photons on a fixed screen. We measure (as in Lebedev's experiments) the force of radiation pressure on the screen. And then we place the cart on the rails and with the help of a good jet engine give the cart a good (large) acceleration (towards the screen). We continue to measure radiation pressure on a fixed screen. We plot the dependence of the radiation pressure of photons on acceleration. The Doppler effect will be clearly noticeable. This will be the first stage. Agreed? (Ниже картинка излучения антенны , экран не показан)
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#1458
by
meberbs
on 10 Sep, 2019 18:54
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We continue to measure radiation pressure on a fixed screen. We plot the dependence of the radiation pressure of photons on acceleration. The Doppler effect will be clearly noticeable.
The Doppler shift depends on relative velocity, not on acceleration. With constant acceleration, the velocity is constantly increasing, so the Doppler shift and radiation pressure also increase. This is correlated with velocity, not acceleration.
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#1459
by
Alex_O
on 10 Sep, 2019 19:05
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We continue to measure radiation pressure on a fixed screen. We plot the dependence of the radiation pressure of photons on acceleration. The Doppler effect will be clearly noticeable.
The Doppler shift depends on relative velocity, not on acceleration. With constant acceleration, the velocity is constantly increasing, so the Doppler shift and radiation pressure also increase. This is correlated with velocity, not acceleration.
I would be careful and study the role of higher derivatives. I saw in textbooks that the exact formulas (in general relativity?) Are written as a polynomial.
I’m afraid the engineer’s intuition, suggests the possible important role of the “jerk”. For example, a jerk is used in the concept of laboratory generation of gravitational waves.
The second / third derivative may produce a small effect, but in the resonator any force effect is automatically multiplied by the quality factor.
