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#1380 by Monomorphic on 20 Aug, 2019 23:23
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That being said and putting EMDrive aside, Sonny White is a totally different story. Tinkering with "vacuum dynamics" is fascinating to me big time. And yes I think Casimir Effect drives deserve their own threads. I don't expect high volume in them. Not yet anyway... ;-)
New thread started here: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48852.0 -
#1381 by Bob012345 on 21 Aug, 2019 00:07
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"Shawyer has repeatedly and consistently gotten this basic concept wrong..."
is a lot better than
"Shawyer has demonstrated a complete lack of competence..."
I'm sorry, but who made you the thread moderator? Is this really what we are arguing about now?
I think both of those clauses are essentially the same and you would still be complaining even if meberbs used the first one.
I'm not but he asked me and I answered. I just don't want to see this thread locked like the Woodward Effect thread was today. -
#1382 by TheTraveller on 21 Aug, 2019 04:28
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Meberbs,
Please indicate via Yes or No which of the following statements you agree or not with. Please don't post a general statement that doesn't indicate your opinion on EACH statement:
1) An EmDrive, when filled with resonant RF but not accelerating will not generate thrust.
2) An EmDrive when accelerating small end forward will generate Red shifted, lower momentum photons impacting the small end, while at the big end the photons are Blue shifted and deliver higher momentum on impact.
3) This differential radiation pressure will generate a net momentum transfer from the photons to the cavity, big end directed.
4) The single transit differential radiation pressure toward the big end will be amplified by the number of EM wave transits between the end plates.
5) As per N3, isolated forces are not allowed. To cause an Action/Reaction N3 effect requires a matching but opposite direction cavity Reaction force, small end directed, to be generated to balance the initial Action force, big end directed. Yes a mind twist but it must exist if you accept the acceleration generated differential Doppler shift and resultant differential radiation pressure.
6) Due to the momentum transfer from the photons to accelerating mass causes photon wavelength to increase. Ie accelerating cavity momentum gain is balanced by photon momentum loss & increased wavelength. -
#1383 by meberbs on 21 Aug, 2019 05:39
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Please indicate via Yes or No which of the following statements you agree or not with. Please don't post a general statement that doesn't indicate your opinion on EACH statement:
Some of your statements are too twisted for a pure "yes or no" statement to be correct. You say something either correct or almost correct but with room to be interpreted completely wrong.1) An EmDrive, when filled with resonant RF but not accelerating will not generate thrust.
Yes, also, no net thrust when accelerating under an external force either, just resistance to the external force causing the acceleration due to the mass of the cavity (including a small contribution from the mass-energy of the photons inside the cavity), as dictated by Newton's third law.2) An EmDrive when accelerating small end forward will generate Red shifted, lower momentum photons impacting the small end, while at the big end the photons are Blue shifted and deliver higher momentum on impact.
Yes, or at least close, but imagining that you could separate out the photons travelling in each direction, you would also see redshift and blueshift if you look at an emDrive from an inertial frame where the emDrive is moving at constant velocity. In that frame the net force totaling the radiation pressure on all walls will be zero. This is because in such a case while there is a blueshift happening on the big end reflection, what is reflecting is photons that were red shifted when reflected by the small end. The inverse happens at the small end and the effects cancel. A net difference in force only happens during acceleration because the velocity of the cavity changed while the photon was travelling from one end to the other, and therefore the amount of the redshift or blueshift does not cancel the amount from the previous reflection on the other end.3) This differential radiation pressure will generate a net momentum transfer from the photons to the cavity, big end directed.
Yes, but see previous answer for caveats on important subtleties with why this happens that you are ignoring.4) The single transit differential radiation pressure toward the big end will be amplified by the number of EM wave transits between the end plates.
No. If you actually did the math you would see that the amount of the force is only proportional to the change in velocity since the previous reflection, and to the total energy in the cavity. The total energy in the cavity is proportional to Q, but you do not get to add in a second factor of Q.5) As per N3, isolated forces are not allowed. To cause an Action/Reaction N3 effect requires a matching but opposite direction cavity Reaction force, small end directed, to be generated to balance the initial Action force, big end directed. Yes a mind twist but it must exist if you accept the acceleration generated differential Doppler shift and resultant differential radiation pressure.
No, there is no mind twist when applying Newton's laws. The photons apply a force to the cavity and the cavity applies an equal and opposite force to the photons. This net force on the photons is what causes a net blueshift of the photons. This net blueshift allows the center of energy of the photons to be moving forward t the same rate as the cavity.6) Due to the momentum transfer from the photons to accelerating mass causes photon wavelength to increase. Ie accelerating cavity momentum gain is balanced by photon momentum loss & increased wavelength.
No, opposite of true, and complete nonsense as explained alongside my previous answers.
Now that I answered yours, there are 2 related questions that I asked you almost 3 years ago, and you repeatedly ignored. The first of these questions only has 3 possible answers, "big end forward," "little end forward," and "doesn't move" Only one of these is correct. And this is completely analagous to the situation with the photons that you are failing to describe correctly here.
Can you please answer these 2 simple questions from the end of this old post?
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.msg1598852#msg1598852 -
#1384 by cvbn on 21 Aug, 2019 13:30
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Couldn't completely internal power sources could also be sources of subtle interference effects which could go either way depending on potential design flaws? My perception is that there seems to be a race to use less and less power and spend funds to design more and more precise instruments to measure the smaller and smaller effects produced with that tiny power.
It is not a race to measure lower power, but smaller levels of force/power ratio. It turns out this is easier to do when power levels are low enough that things like thermal distortion and convection currents simply aren't present, of course there are still other problems that come up in doing this. If large forces that are easy to show are not experimental artifacts could be generated that would be great, but when such an experiment shows no result, supporters would just claim the signal could have been there but the experiment was not sensitive enough. We have already been through this cycle. If anyone had a real, consistent theory that made predictions, then this wouldn't be an issue, the first no result would show the theory is wrong and everyone could move on.
I wish researchers would design experiments which, if they worked, produce forces of unambiguous magnitude. Of course it's much easier for me to want that than for them to do that but I do understand McCulloch's team is doing an experiment they hope will produce a force on the Newton level.
Also, McCulloch eventually provided his predictions for the emDrive like devices he is having tested, and they are uN and mN levels.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48497.msg1965026#msg1965026
I didn't say it was a race... I said it seemed so. In any case when people measure micro Newtons other people claim it's thermal, stray fields or whatever. It's difficult to believe small signals no matter how one rationalized ratio's. I see your quote of McCulloch but he said later his German team hopes to measure 200N/kW at 10Watts power which is 2N but he cautioned that may be optimistic.
Taylor's Emdrive which uses visible or ultraviolet light is supposed to give N/kW. Tajmar is going to perform several different experiments for McCulloch and one of them is this one.
http://www.jbis.org.uk/paper.php?p=2017.70.238
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323278529_Propulsive_forces_using_high-Q_asymmetric_high_energy_laser_resonators
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#1385 by Alex_O on 21 Aug, 2019 19:29
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Look at the simulation of a two-mirror parabolic antenna with a horn emitter and a variable distance between the reflectors.
...
I would like to understand from this model - what radiation pressure on the walls (mirrors) can be in such a system?
...
The second question is how the pressure depends on the possible quality factor of this resonator.
...
I do not know how to correctly understand this summation, and which physics is correct. It would be interesting to find out the correct answer. ОК?
Please excuse me. Why no one answered my message? I am a regular reader of this great forum, maybe I have poorly prepared my question?
Learning Breakthrough Propulsion Physics is my hobby, I'm not a scientist, and I don't work as an engineer. For three years I have read a large number of various scientific works and I know almost everything about experiments with Emdive. For example, I can show my analysis of NASA's Emdrive, where I studied the issues of speeds and accelerations. I noticed that the Paula March's torsion before turning on the power RF was spinning, which means that the resonator Emdrive experienced an acceleration. (about which TT and Shawyer speak so much). Which is fundamentally different from the experiments Dresden, NRL and Monomorphic. I also look at the Shawyer stands (with linear displacement) I know and help myself - how did Shawyer learn about the Doppler idea? I suspect that Shawyer observed Doppler effects in his experiments. About which we still do not know.
Also, I am still in search of an answer to my first question - about the important role of an unstable magnetron in creating the thrust effect in Shawyer experiments. Also, I can add that I read any scientific papers about that non-electromagnetic radiation can exist in nature and I am looking for an answer to the question - is this a good idea for emdrive ?
Thank.
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#1386 by Monomorphic on 21 Aug, 2019 20:37
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Please excuse me. Why no one answered my message? I am a regular reader of this great forum, maybe I have poorly prepared my question?
My understanding is that Shawyer does think the Emdrive will work on a torsional pendulum, but it would need to be set up in such a way that a pre-load is used. Shawyer has said recently, "He [Monomorphic] could pre-load it [emdrive] by setting the torque arm against a back stop, and carry out a set of thrust/load measurements."
Learning Breakthrough Propulsion Physics is my hobby, I'm not a scientist, and I don't work as an engineer. For three years I have read a large number of various scientific works and I know almost everything about experiments with Emdive. For example, I can show my analysis of NASA's Emdrive, where I studied the issues of speeds and accelerations. I noticed that the Paula March's torsion before turning on the power RF was spinning, which means that the resonator Emdrive experienced an acceleration. (about which TT and Shawyer speak so much). Which is fundamentally different from the experiments Dresden, NRL and Monomorphic. I also look at the Shawyer stands (with linear displacement) I know and help myself - how did Shawyer learn about the Doppler idea? I suspect that Shawyer observed Doppler effects in his experiments. About which we still do not know.
Also, I am still in search of an answer to my first question - about the important role of an unstable magnetron in creating the thrust effect in Shawyer experiments. Also, I can add that I read any scientific papers about that non-electromagnetic radiation can exist in nature and I am looking for an answer to the question - is this a good idea for emdrive ?
Thank.
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#1387 by cvbn on 22 Aug, 2019 00:54
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Tinkering with "vacuum dynamics" is fascinating to me big time. And yes I think Casimir Effect drives deserve their own threads.
McCulloch's work is also based, in a sense, on Casimir Effect and "vacuum dynamics" (MiHsC - Modified Inertia from a Hubble-scale Casimir effect, currently known as Quantised Inertia) - he proposed to explain Emdrive using that. He also proposed a theoretical basis for FTL drive among other things: https://www.tsijournals.com/articles/superluminal-travel-from-quantised-inertia.pdf -
#1388 by Alex_O on 22 Aug, 2019 06:24
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I don’t understand the term "torque arm against a back stop". It seems to me that you could install a special hammer on the torsion bar. To push the torsion with a short, light blow before turning on the RF power. At the same time, you should see on your indicator how your torsion pendulum rotates. This is the first option. The second option is to put a retractable stop, which can limit the rotation of the torsion bar for a short time when the RF power is already on. This retractable stop will need to be removed, after a short time, after RF power is on. The third option - the retractable stop can be as flexible as a spring. But I think this is difficult, since the force of elasticity of the stop should be at the level of micronewtons.Please excuse me. Why no one answered my message? I am a regular reader of this great forum, maybe I have poorly prepared my question?
My understanding is that Shawyer does think the Emdrive will work on a torsional pendulum, but it would need to be set up in such a way that a pre-load is used. Shawyer has said recently, "He [Monomorphic] could pre-load it [emdrive] by setting the torque arm against a back stop, and carry out a set of thrust/load measurements."
Learning Breakthrough Propulsion Physics is my hobby, I'm not a scientist, and I don't work as an engineer. For three years I have read a large number of various scientific works and I know almost everything about experiments with Emdive. For example, I can show my analysis of NASA's Emdrive, where I studied the issues of speeds and accelerations. I noticed that the Paula March's torsion before turning on the power RF was spinning, which means that the resonator Emdrive experienced an acceleration. (about which TT and Shawyer speak so much). Which is fundamentally different from the experiments Dresden, NRL and Monomorphic. I also look at the Shawyer stands (with linear displacement) I know and help myself - how did Shawyer learn about the Doppler idea? I suspect that Shawyer observed Doppler effects in his experiments. About which we still do not know.
Also, I am still in search of an answer to my first question - about the important role of an unstable magnetron in creating the thrust effect in Shawyer experiments. Also, I can add that I read any scientific papers about that non-electromagnetic radiation can exist in nature and I am looking for an answer to the question - is this a good idea for emdrive ?
Thank.
Maybe it could be a stream of air? Air hammer or (wow!) just a directional low-frequency sound wave from the speaker? It was cool if it worked. You spent a lot of effort to defeat different noises. Removed vibrations, removed thermal air movements. You've got the perfect torsion pendulum. Maybe this is somehow bad for emdrive?.
In other words, it might be that in order to get traction, you first need to somehow turn on the excitation mode (by analogy with the rotation of the synchronous electric motor, where there is a special magnetic field excitation winding).
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#1389 by Monomorphic on 22 Aug, 2019 13:16
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I don’t understand the term "torque arm against a back stop". It seems to me that you could install a special hammer on the torsion bar. To push the torsion with a short, light blow before turning on the RF power. At the same time, you should see on your indicator how your torsion pendulum rotates. This is the first option. The second option is to put a retractable stop, which can limit the rotation of the torsion bar for a short time when the RF power is already on. This retractable stop will need to be removed, after a short time, after RF power is on. The third option - the retractable stop can be as flexible as a spring. But I think this is difficult, since the force of elasticity of the stop should be at the level of micronewtons.
Maybe it could be a stream of air? Air hammer or (wow!) just a directional low-frequency sound wave from the speaker? It was cool if it worked. You spent a lot of effort to defeat different noises. Removed vibrations, removed thermal air movements. You've got the perfect torsion pendulum. Maybe this is somehow bad for emdrive?.
In other words, it might be that in order to get traction, you first need to somehow turn on the excitation mode (by analogy with the rotation of the synchronous electric motor, where there is a special magnetic field excitation winding).
Easiest thing to use would be the existing calibration voice coil. It would be easy to use that to create a little movement (with a known signal profile), engage the emdrive during movement and see if the signals deviate from the known calibration signals.
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#1390 by Alex_O on 22 Aug, 2019 19:05
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It seems to me that we need to learn how to make such a diagram.I don’t understand the term "torque arm against a back stop". It seems to me that you could install a special hammer on the torsion bar. To push the torsion with a short, light blow before turning on the RF power. At the same time, you should see on your indicator how your torsion pendulum rotates. This is the first option. The second option is to put a retractable stop, which can limit the rotation of the torsion bar for a short time when the RF power is already on. This retractable stop will need to be removed, after a short time, after RF power is on. The third option - the retractable stop can be as flexible as a spring. But I think this is difficult, since the force of elasticity of the stop should be at the level of micronewtons.
Maybe it could be a stream of air? Air hammer or (wow!) just a directional low-frequency sound wave from the speaker? It was cool if it worked. You spent a lot of effort to defeat different noises. Removed vibrations, removed thermal air movements. You've got the perfect torsion pendulum. Maybe this is somehow bad for emdrive?.
In other words, it might be that in order to get traction, you first need to somehow turn on the excitation mode (by analogy with the rotation of the synchronous electric motor, where there is a special magnetic field excitation winding).
Easiest thing to use would be the existing calibration voice coil. It would be easy to use that to create a little movement (with a known signal profile), engage the emdrive during movement and see if the signals deviate from the known calibration signals.
I look at the graphs from the EW report and see the graphs of speed and acceleration. The existing calibration voice coil, if it is possible to smoothly change the voltage for, for example, 20 seconds, this will create rotation for the torsion bar, and you can try to turn on the RF power at the time of rotation.
The second question is - do you have the opportunity to measure velocity and acceleration?
The third question - we know that in the EW system there were thermal forces, as it seems to me quite large. An interesting idea is that the thermal force created a useful acceleration of thorison, which (as Shawyer says) is necessary for Emdrive.
Note. But this is probably not complete advice. Something important about traveling wave modes. I remember that Shawyerwas talking about traveling wave modes.
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#1391 by oyzw on 25 Aug, 2019 02:02
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Hello, Mr. Jamie! I haven't contacted you for a long time. Wish you all the best. Do you still have the conditions to continue to improve the experimental scheme? Or wait and see? I still hope to continue the experiment.
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#1392 by Monomorphic on 25 Aug, 2019 13:58
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Hello, Mr. Jamie! I haven't contacted you for a long time. Wish you all the best. Do you still have the conditions to continue to improve the experimental scheme? Or wait and see? I still hope to continue the experiment.
Hello! Long time no see. I hope you are doing well too. I have been working on a new hanging wire torsional pendulum for testing heavier objects like the emdrive. Flexure bearings with very low stiffness can only support <5lbs and the emdrives tend to weigh a bit more than that. The hanging wire pendulum can support 50lbs without any elasticity in the wire with the same torsional stiffness. Then the next step is to finish the design of the liquid metal coax connection.
Many are also waiting for the 2019 IAC conference in October where it is rumored Roger Shawyer will be releasing specific design details on his first gen demonstrator thrusters. It doesn't make sense to keep building cavities based on guesses.
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#1393 by Vlad Kri on 26 Aug, 2019 07:21
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Is that Shawyer? Is that an air table? Can you point to the link of this video? Thanks.
https://ok.ru/video/317461105392
from 29:23
I can't really tell what's going on since it's in Russian without subtitles but thanks anyway.
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#1394 by Alex_O on 26 Aug, 2019 18:58
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I have been working on a new hanging wire torsional pendulum for testing heavier objects like the emdrive. Flexure bearings with very low stiffness can only support <5lbs and the emdrives tend to weigh a bit more than that. The hanging wire pendulum can support 50lbs without any elasticity in the wire with the same torsional stiffness.
Jamie, do you have the opportunity to conduct an experiment on an early installation? What could you think of a helium balloon pendant? Volume approximately 1m3. Just attach a small balloon to the torsional pendulum. This can well reduce the load (weights) on flexible bearings. I don’t know how this can affect the effects of noise.
My second question may be about non-electromagnetic radiation. I read about very strange things, for example about streams in Aether (theories). Do you have a working resonator emdrive? For example, the end walls of a resonator may be slightly transparent to Aether wind. This is very similar to White's quantum vacuum. There may simply be different terms when describing one physics. But it may be that it is the resonator that you used - it may be very bad for the transit of Aether flows through itself. It just uses bad material, bad copper (from a metallurgical factory), etc. .. (for example, at the level of dissolved gases / impurities) or a problem at the level of wall thickness ....
Thank! -
#1395 by Monomorphic on 26 Aug, 2019 23:34
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Jamie, do you have the opportunity to conduct an experiment on an early installation? What could you think of a helium balloon pendant? Volume approximately 1m3. Just attach a small balloon to the torsional pendulum. This can well reduce the load (weights) on flexible bearings. I don’t know how this can affect the effects of noise.
My second question may be about non-electromagnetic radiation. I read about very strange things, for example about streams in Aether (theories). Do you have a working resonator emdrive? For example, the end walls of a resonator may be slightly transparent to Aether wind. This is very similar to White's quantum vacuum. There may simply be different terms when describing one physics. But it may be that it is the resonator that you used - it may be very bad for the transit of Aether flows through itself. It just uses bad material, bad copper (from a metallurgical factory), etc. .. (for example, at the level of dissolved gases / impurities) or a problem at the level of wall thickness ....
Better to use the hanging wire pendulum as it can hold more weight for the same sensitivity. The whole balance needs to be placed in a draft enclosure, so I don't think a balloon would be very practical.
I have a working frustum-shaped 2.4ghz RF cavity resonator, but I have not been able to get any thrust out of it to date. The new liquid metal coax connection (that allows me to remove the heavy RF amplifier and phase change heatsink from the torsional pendulum) should greatly simplify the experiment. -
#1396 by Alex_O on 27 Aug, 2019 14:03
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Jamie, do you have the opportunity to conduct an experiment on an early installation? What could you think of a helium balloon pendant? Volume approximately 1m3. Just attach a small balloon to the torsional pendulum. This can well reduce the load (weights) on flexible bearings. I don’t know how this can affect the effects of noise.
My second question may be about non-electromagnetic radiation. I read about very strange things, for example about streams in Aether (theories). Do you have a working resonator emdrive? For example, the end walls of a resonator may be slightly transparent to Aether wind. This is very similar to White's quantum vacuum. There may simply be different terms when describing one physics. But it may be that it is the resonator that you used - it may be very bad for the transit of Aether flows through itself. It just uses bad material, bad copper (from a metallurgical factory), etc. .. (for example, at the level of dissolved gases / impurities) or a problem at the level of wall thickness ....
Better to use the hanging wire pendulum as it can hold more weight for the same sensitivity. The whole balance needs to be placed in a draft enclosure, so I don't think a balloon would be very practical.
I have a working frustum-shaped 2.4ghz RF cavity resonator, but I have not been able to get any thrust out of it to date. The new liquid metal coax connection (that allows me to remove the heavy RF amplifier and phase change heatsink from the torsional pendulum) should greatly simplify the experiment.
I looked again at your video channel, I understand that there is not enough space for an ordinary gel ball.
But it seems that this can be organized. In this case, the diameter of the hole in the draft enclosure for a thin thread (fishing cord) can be less than 1 millimeter. An additional guard (thin short tube or some foam) can be used.
And here's another crazy idea. I read that in strange experiments with strange radiations surrounding objects can greatly harm. The wall of the room! If you move the installation to the center of the room and use the remote control .. Is it not very difficult to experience? And the casing draft enclosure also need to be removed.
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#1397 by TheTraveller on 05 Sep, 2019 08:55
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Roger has loaded the Flight Thruster detailed engineering report onto www.emdrive.comQuote
Latest news
September 2019
A copy of the original Flight Thruster Technical Report is given here. The report which was first produced in September 2010, was updated in December 2017 to include the original manufacturing drawings.
Also given are the Cullen and Bailey papers, which provided the original source material for the development of the EmDrive theory of operation.
These three files are referenced in the paper entitled, EmDrive Thrust/Load Characteristics. Theory, experimental Results and a Moon Mission. This paper will be given at the IAC 2019 conference in Washington next month.
Flight Thruster Report Issue 2
Cullen Paper 0001
Bailey RRE Paper
http://www.emdrive.com/flighthrusterreportissue2.pdf
http://www.emdrive.com/cullenpaper0001.pdf
http://www.emdrive.com/baileyrrepaper.pdf
Replicators, GO!
Have fun, be nice.
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#1398 by Flyby on 05 Sep, 2019 12:50
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Finally....
This must be the first pdf with substantial useful information (on how to build) since 2014...ever since this topic started...
All the rest of the previous papers were - sorry to say - nothing more then propaganda material: a lot of empty visuals with zero content...
I will not replicate... no time, no money to burn and more important, some serious gaps in my engineering skills... but maybe others can have a go at it ? -
#1399 by TheTraveller on 05 Sep, 2019 14:41
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Finally....
This must be the first pdf with substantial useful information (on how to build) since 2014...ever since this topic started...
All the rest of the previous papers were - sorry to say - nothing more then propaganda material: a lot of empty visuals with zero content...
I will not replicate... no time, no money to burn and more important, some serious gaps in my engineering skills... but maybe others can have a go at it ?
Hi Flyby,
NDAs & other commercial arrangements with SPR clients prevented this data from being released earlier.
As stated earlier, it is time for G1 EmDrive tech to come out from the shadows
