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#1340 by Bob012345 on 16 Aug, 2019 17:10
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Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
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#1341 by MathewOrman on 17 Aug, 2019 11:40
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Roger Shawyer when I pointed to him that on his video of the demo the device is rotating in opposite direction...Claiming that applying a force applied to an object causes the object to accelerate in the opposite direction of the force is to deny the most fundamental definitions in physics.
I forget. Who was it who claimed exactly that? -
#1342 by MathewOrman on 17 Aug, 2019 11:45
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Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
Resonance... :-)
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#1343 by SeeShells on 17 Aug, 2019 13:07
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Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
Yes.
Ever been on a swing, swinging? Same thing, add energy at the right time and you will go higher.
Shell -
#1344 by Bob012345 on 17 Aug, 2019 18:01
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Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
Resonance... :-)
Thanks. I was originally thinking it was different but I checked out some videos of microwave oven wave patterns.Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
Yes.
Ever been on a swing, swinging? Same thing, add energy at the right time and you will go higher.
Shell
Now, I wonder if it's possible with EM waves to not have nodes but maximum fields at the endplates. -
#1345 by MathewOrman on 17 Aug, 2019 18:35
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#1346 by Bob012345 on 17 Aug, 2019 18:38
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That's old news and not the end of the story. At least I hope not. Also, it isn't NASA's EmDrive.
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#1347 by dustinthewind on 17 Aug, 2019 20:55
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Image of two speculations of propulsion. One is light losing momentum to increased effective mass of fast moving electrons, and the electrons not losing their effective mass during velocity reversal, due to large acceleration. This would be free electrons in the air in the cavity being accelerated by a series of frequencies which create an asymmetric acceleration on the free charges.
The other is light losing energy via the Compton effect to a semi transparent cold plasma cloud near the narrow end of the frustum. Light more efficiently transfers energy to plasma because of the small effective mass of the light being closer to the mass of the plasma. (Similar to why they chose thin wafer mirrors for the recycled photon thruster satellites they fire off.) The plasma charges, after taking a few Compton reflections, transfer momentum to the cavity. The plasma to cavity energy transfer being more efficient because of the now increased effective mass of the plasma? The plasma being trapped at one end of the cavity.
What is interesting is that the 2nd idea doesn't require something to escape the cavity to carry off the missing momentum because of the direction in which the light is losing momentum is the direction in which the cavity gains momentum. Question is if this makes sense or not.
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#1348 by meberbs on 17 Aug, 2019 22:19
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Image of two speculations of propulsion. One is light losing momentum to increased effective mass of fast moving electrons, and the electrons not losing their effective mass during velocity reversal, due to large acceleration. This would be free electrons in the air in the cavity being accelerated by a series of frequencies which create an asymmetric acceleration on the free charges.
Are you not reading my posts, or are you just continuing to use words like "effective mass" that have no defined meaning in this context because you don't want to communicate clearly? I previously explained the mass related terms and their meanings that make sense to talk about. I would suggest "relativistic mass" as the term you want to be using, but that would make statements like the one "the electrons not losing their florb during velocity reversal" to just be completely wrong. (I replaced "effective mass" with "florb" since both have the same amount of meaning here.) An accelerating charge passes through every velocity in between its initial and final velocities, and there is no reason in this situation for them to be moving relativistically, let alone switching directions that quickly.
Meanwhile your attached picture instead of this nonsensical statement has the useless statement that maybe some undefined thing is carrying away momentum for an undefined reason. Also, for no apparent reason, the picture shows talks about what the relativistic field of a charged particle looks like, and then makes another meaningless statement about this magically increasing "space-time coupling."The other is light losing energy via the Compton effect to a semi transparent cold plasma cloud near the narrow end of the frustum. Light more efficiently transfers energy to plasma because of the small effective mass of the light being closer to the mass of the plasma. (Similar to why they chose thin wafer mirrors for the recycled photon thruster satellites they fire off.) The plasma charges, after taking a few Compton reflections, transfer momentum to the cavity. The plasma to cavity energy transfer being more efficient because of the now increased effective mass of the plasma? The plasma being trapped at one end of the cavity.
No, none of this makes sense, and it clearly is not possible since producing any net force from a closed system violates conservation of momentum and conservation of energy.
What is interesting is that the 2nd idea doesn't require something to escape the cavity to carry off the missing momentum because of the direction in which the light is losing momentum is the direction in which the cavity gains momentum. Question is if this makes sense or not. -
#1349 by SeeShells on 18 Aug, 2019 11:07
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If visually seeing it helps answer your questions. Here is a link to a simulator that can answer your questions.Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
Resonance... :-)
Thanks. I was originally thinking it was different but I checked out some videos of microwave oven wave patterns.Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
Yes.
Ever been on a swing, swinging? Same thing, add energy at the right time and you will go higher.
Shell
Now, I wonder if it's possible with EM waves to not have nodes but maximum fields at the endplates.
https://ophysics.com/waves8b.html
Shell -
#1350 by Bryan_Kelly on 18 Aug, 2019 15:52
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No, none of this makes sense, and it clearly is not possible since producing any net force from a closed system violates conservation of momentum and conservation of energy.
This would suggest that perhaps pumping light through a system, instead of within, may be a worthwhile alternative pursuit. -
#1351 by Alex_O on 19 Aug, 2019 03:29
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YK Bae has demonstrated his Photonic Laser Thruster accelerates macroscopic objects so I think an EmDrive cavity of higher power and much higher Q would have large internal forces.
It is worth mentioning that YK Bae's 2015 recycling photon thruster, operating under the best laboratory conditions, at 0.5kW, generated 3.5mN of thrust.
If the emdrive is more efficient than that, then there would need to be something else going on besides recycling photons.
Hi Monomorphic!, hi guys!
Look at the simulation of a two-mirror parabolic antenna with a horn emitter and a variable distance between the reflectors. This is a trial model of Emdrive without side walls. The dZ parameter is a measure of the distance between the mirrors, in meters. For different dZ - we see a different distribution of the EM field in the system. The dimensions of the mirrors are about 1 meter and the wavelength is about 3 centimeters. Also, the arrows show clearly how well the antenna radiates power to the far zone.
I would like to understand from this model - what radiation pressure on the walls (mirrors) can be in such a system? I think I see a moment when the radiation pressure on a small mirror is much less than on a large one. But I do not understand how this is possible, if all the photons (if represented as solid balls) are always reflected between the mirrors in the same way, regardless of the parameter dz. The simulation clearly reflects the wave properties of EM waves.
On this frame you can see better
The second question is how the pressure depends on the possible quality factor of this resonator.
This thing, if you put it here on the Shawyer stand, it will obviously move along the stand at different speeds???. And the thrust of this emdrive may depend on the quality factor of the resonator, as Roger Shawyer claims.
I do not know how to correctly understand this summation, and which physics is correct. It would be interesting to find out the correct answer. ОК?
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#1352 by Bob012345 on 19 Aug, 2019 18:04
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YK Bae has demonstrated his Photonic Laser Thruster accelerates macroscopic objects so I think an EmDrive cavity of higher power and much higher Q would have large internal forces.
It is worth mentioning that YK Bae's 2015 recycling photon thruster, operating under the best laboratory conditions, at 0.5kW, generated 3.5mN of thrust.
If the emdrive is more efficient than that, then there would need to be something else going on besides recycling photons.
This thing, if you put it here on the Shawyer stand, it will obviously move along the stand at different speeds???. And the thrust of this emdrive may depend on the quality factor of the resonator, as Roger Shawyer claims.
I do not know how to correctly understand this summation, and which physics is correct. It would be interesting to find out the correct answer. ОК?
Is that Shawyer? Is that an air table? Can you point to the link of this video? Thanks. -
#1353 by Alex_O on 19 Aug, 2019 18:49
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Is that Shawyer? Is that an air table? Can you point to the link of this video? Thanks.
https://ok.ru/video/317461105392
from 29:23 -
#1354 by SeeShells on 19 Aug, 2019 19:59
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https://www.fisw.space/fisw-2019
Foundations of Interstellar Studies Workshop 2019
SESSION TWO: ADVANCED PROPULSION TECHNOLOGY & MISSIONS
Keynote 2: Alan Costley, “Development for Faster Fusion at Tokamak Energy”, Tokamak Energy Ltd.
Speaker 8: Angelo Genovese, “Laser-Powered Electric Propulsion Precursor Mission”, Initiative for Interstellar Studies, UK.
Speaker 9: Ryan Weed, “Antielectron Propulsion”, Positron Dynamics, USA.
Speaker 10: Rob Swinney, “Project Icarus Fusion Starship Concept Design Solutions”, Initiative for Interstellar Studies, UK.
Speaker 11: Charles Swanson, “Direct Fusion Drive for the Gravitational Lens Mission”, Princeton Satellite Systems, USA.
Interactive Workshop Discussion: Fusion, Antimatter Catalysed Fusion, Laser-Electric Propulsion, Precursor Missions.
Speaker 12: Jeremy Munday, “Engineering Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations”, University of Maryland, USA.
Speaker 13: Harold ‘Sonny’ White, “Dynamic Vacuum Propulsion”, NASA Johnson Space Center, Houston, USA.
Speaker 14: Heidi Fearn, “Advances in Mach Effect Gravitational Assist (MEGA) Drive Experimentation”, CSU Fullerton, California, USA.
Speaker 15: Mike McCulloch, “Quantised Inertia, Propellant-less Thrust and Interstellar Travel”, Plymouth University.
Speaker 16: Philip Lubin, “Directed Energy – The Path to Interstellar Flight”, University California Santa Barbara, California, USA.
Interactive Workshop Discussion: Quantum Vacuum, Mach Effect, Inertia Drives.
Excerpt from Dr. "Sonny" White's presentation NASA's EAGLEWORKS
With 100% efficient system, thrust to power will be 6.3 uN/W, or 1900x photon rocket
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c751cb03560c34b3b675308/t/5d1d0e42c39b82000117afa5/1562185304980/13_White_EW_June_2019_White.pdf
Shell
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#1355 by dustinthewind on 19 Aug, 2019 21:01
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there should not be any maximum electric nodes at the end plates if light is being actively reflected from them. It's the acceleration of the electrons in the metal plate that causes a counter electric field to be developed which cancels the local electric field near the plate. in a transverse electric mode of operation it's just the magnetic field near the surface.Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
Resonance... :-)
Thanks. I was originally thinking it was different but I checked out some videos of microwave oven wave patterns.Is it possible to form an amplified standing wave in the cavity? Thanks.
Yes.
Ever been on a swing, swinging? Same thing, add energy at the right time and you will go higher.
Shell
Now, I wonder if it's possible with EM waves to not have nodes but maximum fields at the endplates.
A transverse magnetic mode of operation induces separation of charge so in that case there are electric fields that appear at the surface of the metal temporarily, in the capacitative cycle. In this case the cavity will alternate between capacitive and inductive. These type of electric Fields always point away from The metal at the surface. In both transverse electric and transverse magnetic modes, there are no electric fields that point parallel to the surface of the metal as a property of the metal because it reflects light, or the induced acceleration of charges at the surface.
At least at full resonance anyway. There are some electric fields that do reach the metal as stored energy is increasing, decreasing or being lost as heat. -
#1356 by Bob012345 on 19 Aug, 2019 21:04
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Is that Shawyer? Is that an air table? Can you point to the link of this video? Thanks.
https://ok.ru/video/317461105392
from 29:23
I can't really tell what's going on since it's in Russian without subtitles but thanks anyway. -
#1357 by DamianM on 19 Aug, 2019 21:28
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https://www.fisw.space/fisw-2019
Foundations of Interstellar Studies Workshop 2019
SESSION TWO: ADVANCED PROPULSION TECHNOLOGY & MISSIONS
Keynote 2: Alan Costley, “Development for Faster Fusion at Tokamak Energy”, Tokamak Energy Ltd.
Speaker 8: Angelo Genovese, “Laser-Powered Electric Propulsion Precursor Mission”, Initiative for Interstellar Studies, UK.
Speaker 9: Ryan Weed, “Antielectron Propulsion”, Positron Dynamics, USA.
Speaker 10: Rob Swinney, “Project Icarus Fusion Starship Concept Design Solutions”, Initiative for Interstellar Studies, UK.
Speaker 11: Charles Swanson, “Direct Fusion Drive for the Gravitational Lens Mission”, Princeton Satellite Systems, USA.
Interactive Workshop Discussion: Fusion, Antimatter Catalysed Fusion, Laser-Electric Propulsion, Precursor Missions.
Speaker 12: Jeremy Munday, “Engineering Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations”, University of Maryland, USA.
Speaker 13: Harold ‘Sonny’ White, “Dynamic Vacuum Propulsion”, NASA Johnson Space Center, Houston, USA.
Speaker 14: Heidi Fearn, “Advances in Mach Effect Gravitational Assist (MEGA) Drive Experimentation”, CSU Fullerton, California, USA.
Speaker 15: Mike McCulloch, “Quantised Inertia, Propellant-less Thrust and Interstellar Travel”, Plymouth University.
Speaker 16: Philip Lubin, “Directed Energy – The Path to Interstellar Flight”, University California Santa Barbara, California, USA.
Interactive Workshop Discussion: Quantum Vacuum, Mach Effect, Inertia Drives.
Excerpt from Dr. "Sonny" White's presentation NASA's EAGLEWORKS
With 100% efficient system, thrust to power will be 6.3 uN/W, or 1900x photon rocket
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c751cb03560c34b3b675308/t/5d1d0e42c39b82000117afa5/1562185304980/13_White_EW_June_2019_White.pdf
Shell
New research from PrimeLightworks
Measurement Error Analysis of Impulsive Thrust from a
Closed Radio-Frequency Cavity in Vacuum
https://primelightworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Prime-Lightworks_SmallSat_Presentation_2019-08-07_Final.pdf -
#1358 by A_M_Swallow on 19 Aug, 2019 21:44
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Is that Shawyer? Is that an air table? Can you point to the link of this video? Thanks.
https://ok.ru/video/317461105392
from 29:23
I can't really tell what's going on since it's in Russian without subtitles but thanks anyway.
The clip appears to be from the long running BBC TV programme Horizon.
The clip is used in this interview with Roger Shawyer.
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#1359 by gaballard on 19 Aug, 2019 21:55
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Last time I checked on EM drive development (probably 2 years ago by now), people were finding that when you started running them on internal power sources the thrust largely disappears. The consensus was that the EM drive was interacting with the magnetic fields created by having a high voltage power line running through your whole setup.
Has this been disproven? Has anyone demonstrated a 100% internally powered EM drive that consistently produces the same amount of thrust as ones with external power sources?