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#1240
by
Bob012345
on 30 Jul, 2019 17:59
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https://www.newscientist.com/article/2169809-impossible-em-drive-doesnt-seem-to-work-after-all/
An old and admittedly flawed test.
What "admitted flaws" are there in the test that article is about? That is not talking about the old test that had a Q orders of magnitude too low.
As I understand it, the Woodward team responded to Tajmar's null test showing how the Dresden team didn't follow proper protocol, didn't understand what they were doing and ruined the device.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iMkqxPFXFBFT3rbmRrXmrtGlrBdZWmNh/view
The article is about the emDrive, and has literally nothing to do with Woodward's device at all.
This is the wrong thread to go into Woodward's complaints about the test of Woodward's device, so I won't respond to what you just said about that in detail, but you are taking a one sided perspective, and not considering Woodward's responsibility to actually sufficiently explain how to run his device.
Point taken. Sorry, I mixed up things. Tajmar is testing both concepts and the article mentioned Woodward and I conflated them in my mind. Sorry.
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#1241
by
TheTraveller
on 01 Aug, 2019 04:40
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Email received from Roger Shawyer.
Seems a lot of new Flight Thruster test, design & engineering data are being released. Original data here:
http://www.emdrive.com/flightprogramme.html
Interesting times ahead.
People may like to read the paper I am presenting at IAC19 in Washington on 25 Oct.
There will be a lot of information in it on our original Flight Thruster, which might be helpful.
The patent for first generation EmDrive has now elapsed, and the Boeing agreements are no longer valid, so design information will be included.
Additional information from Roger says there will be sufficient supportive information placed on the
www.emdrive.com web site, after his Oct 2019 IAC paper presentation, such that anyone skilled in the art will be able to replicate the Flight Thruster, test rig & obtain a high level of thrust.
Interesting times ahead in the world of Momentum Transfer Drive (MTD). Ie MTD accelerated mass gains momentum as trapped photons lose matching momentum & their wavelengths increase as their momentum drops. CofM is obeyed.
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#1242
by
meberbs
on 01 Aug, 2019 06:26
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CofM is obeyed.
For the countless time:
If a system starts at rest, ends up moving, and you can't point to anything else moving in the opposite direction, that is the literal definition of breaking conservation of momentum. You clearly have issues with your understanding of photon momentum, but those don't matter for seeing that you are breaking conservation of momentum, since you just turn the drive off, let the photons all get absorbed by the cavity walls, and see that if the device works as you claim, conservation of momentum is broken.
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#1243
by
Ricvil
on 01 Aug, 2019 12:40
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Email received from Roger Shawyer.
Seems a lot of new Flight Thruster test, design & engineering data are being released. Original data here:
http://www.emdrive.com/flightprogramme.html
Interesting times ahead.
People may like to read the paper I am presenting at IAC19 in Washington on 25 Oct.
There will be a lot of information in it on our original Flight Thruster, which might be helpful.
The patent for first generation EmDrive has now elapsed, and the Boeing agreements are no longer valid, so design information will be included.
Additional information from Roger says there will be sufficient supportive information placed on the www.emdrive.com web site, after his Oct 2019 IAC paper presentation, such that anyone skilled in the art will be able to replicate the Flight Thruster, test rig & obtain a high level of thrust.
Interesting times ahead in the world of Momentum Transfer Drive (MTD). Ie MTD accelerated mass gains momentum as trapped photons lose matching momentum & their wavelengths increase as their momentum drops. CofM is obeyed.
Congratulations TheTraveller ( and US Navy
)
Your MTD is nothing more than a Resonant Spacetime "Hall Effect" like Device.
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#1244
by
rfmwguy
on 01 Aug, 2019 13:12
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I'm still around and checking out the latest info every year or 2. Seems like it has been slow going.
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#1245
by
TheTraveller
on 01 Aug, 2019 13:13
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Email received from Roger Shawyer.
Seems a lot of new Flight Thruster test, design & engineering data are being released. Original data here:
http://www.emdrive.com/flightprogramme.html
Interesting times ahead.
People may like to read the paper I am presenting at IAC19 in Washington on 25 Oct.
There will be a lot of information in it on our original Flight Thruster, which might be helpful.
The patent for first generation EmDrive has now elapsed, and the Boeing agreements are no longer valid, so design information will be included.
Additional information from Roger says there will be sufficient supportive information placed on the www.emdrive.com web site, after his Oct 2019 IAC paper presentation, such that anyone skilled in the art will be able to replicate the Flight Thruster, test rig & obtain a high level of thrust.
Interesting times ahead in the world of Momentum Transfer Drive (MTD). Ie MTD accelerated mass gains momentum as trapped photons lose matching momentum & their wavelengths increase as their momentum drops. CofM is obeyed.
Following Roger's release of Flight Thruster design data, I'll be working with another DIYer to replicate a Flight Thruster, RF system & test rig as per Roger's data.
They will release the test data, which will include a spectrum scan showing increasing trapped photon wavelength, ie photon momentum loss, as the Flight Thruster accelerates vs no wavelength change when not accelerating.
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#1246
by
Monomorphic
on 01 Aug, 2019 13:19
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#1247
by
rfmwguy
on 01 Aug, 2019 13:34
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Still an enigma. Perhaps someday the principle of conservation of momentum without mass exchange will be exploited. I've long felt it's just that simple.
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#1248
by
TheTraveller
on 01 Aug, 2019 13:41
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Still an enigma. Perhaps someday the principle of conservation of momentum without mass exchange will be exploited. I've long felt it's just that simple.
With photons, that can't alter velocity as their momentum alters, their emitted wavelength, after momentum transfer to mass, alters.
With mass <> mass momentum exchanges, each mass alters velocity to conserve momentum.
With mass <> photon momentum exchanges, while mass alters velocity, photons alter wavelength to conserve momentum.
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#1249
by
dwheeler
on 01 Aug, 2019 14:43
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Email received from Roger Shawyer.
Seems a lot of new Flight Thruster test, design & engineering data are being released. Original data here:
http://www.emdrive.com/flightprogramme.html
Interesting times ahead.
People may like to read the paper I am presenting at IAC19 in Washington on 25 Oct.
There will be a lot of information in it on our original Flight Thruster, which might be helpful.
The patent for first generation EmDrive has now elapsed, and the Boeing agreements are no longer valid, so design information will be included.
Additional information from Roger says there will be sufficient supportive information placed on the www.emdrive.com web site, after his Oct 2019 IAC paper presentation, such that anyone skilled in the art will be able to replicate the Flight Thruster, test rig & obtain a high level of thrust.
Interesting times ahead in the world of Momentum Transfer Drive (MTD). Ie MTD accelerated mass gains momentum as trapped photons lose matching momentum & their wavelengths increase as their momentum drops. CofM is obeyed.
Following Roger's release of Flight Thruster design data, I'll be working with another DIYer to replicate a Flight Thruster, RF system & test rig as per Roger's data.
They will release the test data, which will include a spectrum scan showing increasing trapped photon wavelength, ie photon momentum loss, as the Flight Thruster accelerates vs no wavelength change when not accelerating.
If the Oct 2019 IAC presentation and supporting data is conclusive, why would we need DIYers to continue their work? Won't every space tech firm, university, and government space agency be scrambling to implement it? Throwing billions of dollars at it to produce a usable space craft drive system?
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#1250
by
meberbs
on 01 Aug, 2019 14:44
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Still an enigma. Perhaps someday the principle of conservation of momentum without mass exchange will be exploited. I've long felt it's just that simple.
With photons, that can't alter velocity as their momentum alters, their emitted wavelength, after momentum transfer to mass, alters.
With mass <> mass momentum exchanges, each mass alters velocity to conserve momentum.
With mass <> photon momentum exchanges, while mass alters velocity, photons alter wavelength to conserve momentum.
For all of the interactions you just described forces are equal and opposite so that momentum is conserved. No closed system can move under that scenario, since part of the system would move in one direction, part in the other, and as long as nothing leaves the system (such as propellant flying away from a rocket) then the motion in opposite directions will eventually reach the constraint holding the system together, and momentum will transfer back (for example, photons hitting the end of the cavity.)
Shawyer's claim has always inherently been that the photon momentum magically changes between one end of the cavity and the other, without transferring that momentum to anything else. This obviously and clearly breaks momentum conservation, and as stated in my previous post, if you are confused about the photon momentum, just look at the before and after states of the system with power off and no photons to worry about, and you can clearly see that momentum conservation is broken.
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#1251
by
TheTraveller
on 01 Aug, 2019 14:59
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Email received from Roger Shawyer.
Seems a lot of new Flight Thruster test, design & engineering data are being released. Original data here:
http://www.emdrive.com/flightprogramme.html
Interesting times ahead.
People may like to read the paper I am presenting at IAC19 in Washington on 25 Oct.
There will be a lot of information in it on our original Flight Thruster, which might be helpful.
The patent for first generation EmDrive has now elapsed, and the Boeing agreements are no longer valid, so design information will be included.
Additional information from Roger says there will be sufficient supportive information placed on the www.emdrive.com web site, after his Oct 2019 IAC paper presentation, such that anyone skilled in the art will be able to replicate the Flight Thruster, test rig & obtain a high level of thrust.
Interesting times ahead in the world of Momentum Transfer Drive (MTD). Ie MTD accelerated mass gains momentum as trapped photons lose matching momentum & their wavelengths increase as their momentum drops. CofM is obeyed.
Following Roger's release of Flight Thruster design data, I'll be working with another DIYer to replicate a Flight Thruster, RF system & test rig as per Roger's data.
They will release the test data, which will include a spectrum scan showing increasing trapped photon wavelength, ie photon momentum loss, as the Flight Thruster accelerates vs no wavelength change when not accelerating.
If the Oct 2019 IAC presentation and supporting data is conclusive, why would we need DIYers to continue their work? Won't every space tech firm, university, and government space agency be scrambling to implement it? Throwing billions of dollars at it to produce a usable space craft drive system?
You are basically correct.
Don't ignore the Skilled In The Act bit.
Complex process to follow.
Get any step wrong & uncertain results may occur.
Such as initial vibration/acceleration source is needed to cause initial differential Doppler shift, which then causes differential radiation pressure. Non accelerating cavity does not generate differential Doppler shift nor differential radiation pressure nor thrust. Roger disclosed this years ago.
Should be interesting.
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#1252
by
Bob012345
on 01 Aug, 2019 18:07
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Still an enigma. Perhaps someday the principle of conservation of momentum without mass exchange will be exploited. I've long felt it's just that simple.
With photons, that can't alter velocity as their momentum alters, their emitted wavelength, after momentum transfer to mass, alters.
With mass <> mass momentum exchanges, each mass alters velocity to conserve momentum.
With mass <> photon momentum exchanges, while mass alters velocity, photons alter wavelength to conserve momentum.
For all of the interactions you just described forces are equal and opposite so that momentum is conserved. No closed system can move under that scenario, since part of the system would move in one direction, part in the other, and as long as nothing leaves the system (such as propellant flying away from a rocket) then the motion in opposite directions will eventually reach the constraint holding the system together, and momentum will transfer back (for example, photons hitting the end of the cavity.)
Shawyer's claim has always inherently been that the photon momentum magically changes between one end of the cavity and the other, without transferring that momentum to anything else. This obviously and clearly breaks momentum conservation, and as stated in my previous post, if you are confused about the photon momentum, just look at the before and after states of the system with power off and no photons to worry about, and you can clearly see that momentum conservation is broken.
What you say makes sense and I basically agree with the caveat that perhaps not all nuances of photon and field momentum or the interactions with spacetime are completely understood. For any device that does prove to work, in the end momentum will be shown to be conserved even if it has to include some new physics or the universe as a whole to do so.
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#1253
by
Bob012345
on 01 Aug, 2019 18:31
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New article by Tajmar on tests on the Emdrive and on Woodward device:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009457651832071X
"Forces claimed by potential propellantless propulsion systems like the Mach-Effect-Thruster or the EMDrive are in the μN or even sub-μN range." I'm skeptical of test devices limited to producing the smallest possible thrust. Whatever results are gained they just invite further skepticism..."What about this? You didn't account for that...and on and on. I doubt any useful conclusions will ever be made from uN results. Shawyer and Fetta (Cannae) both claim superconducting cavities can produce enormous amounts of thrust. I wish someone would test those designs. Either they do or they don't.
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#1254
by
Bob012345
on 01 Aug, 2019 18:48
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Email received from Roger Shawyer.
Seems a lot of new Flight Thruster test, design & engineering data are being released. Original data here:
http://www.emdrive.com/flightprogramme.html
Interesting times ahead.
People may like to read the paper I am presenting at IAC19 in Washington on 25 Oct.
There will be a lot of information in it on our original Flight Thruster, which might be helpful.
The patent for first generation EmDrive has now elapsed, and the Boeing agreements are no longer valid, so design information will be included.
Additional information from Roger says there will be sufficient supportive information placed on the www.emdrive.com web site, after his Oct 2019 IAC paper presentation, such that anyone skilled in the art will be able to replicate the Flight Thruster, test rig & obtain a high level of thrust.
Interesting times ahead in the world of Momentum Transfer Drive (MTD). Ie MTD accelerated mass gains momentum as trapped photons lose matching momentum & their wavelengths increase as their momentum drops. CofM is obeyed.
Following Roger's release of Flight Thruster design data, I'll be working with another DIYer to replicate a Flight Thruster, RF system & test rig as per Roger's data.
They will release the test data, which will include a spectrum scan showing increasing trapped photon wavelength, ie photon momentum loss, as the Flight Thruster accelerates vs no wavelength change when not accelerating.
Can you put the whole device including the power supply in a sealed black box and see if it accelerates on an air table?
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#1255
by
Bob012345
on 01 Aug, 2019 19:02
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Still an enigma. Perhaps someday the principle of conservation of momentum without mass exchange will be exploited. I've long felt it's just that simple.
With photons, that can't alter velocity as their momentum alters, their emitted wavelength, after momentum transfer to mass, alters.
With mass <> mass momentum exchanges, each mass alters velocity to conserve momentum.
With mass <> photon momentum exchanges, while mass alters velocity, photons alter wavelength to conserve momentum.
For all of the interactions you just described forces are equal and opposite so that momentum is conserved. No closed system can move under that scenario, since part of the system would move in one direction, part in the other, and as long as nothing leaves the system (such as propellant flying away from a rocket) then the motion in opposite directions will eventually reach the constraint holding the system together, and momentum will transfer back (for example, photons hitting the end of the cavity.)
Please clarify a couple of points. It seems the general thinking on the EmDrive is that what happens in the cavity stays in the cavity, except thermal photons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems all those bouncing microwaves inside would induce currents in the EmDrive surface which themselves would produce fields and photons outside which thus can shed momentum. And even just considering thermal photons, couldn't the truncated cone shape preferentially radiate power in one direction? Thanks.
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#1256
by
meberbs
on 01 Aug, 2019 19:43
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CofM is obeyed.
For the countless time:
If a system starts at rest, ends up moving, and you can't point to anything else moving in the opposite direction, that is the literal definition of breaking conservation of momentum. You clearly have issues with your understanding of photon momentum, but those don't matter for seeing that you are breaking conservation of momentum, since you just turn the drive off, let the photons all get absorbed by the cavity walls, and see that if the device works as you claim, conservation of momentum is broken.
Serious question (not trying to be a troll). If the system has movement imparted to it through energy (or mass that was converted to energy), then you wouldn't see anything else moving in the opposite direction, right? Even if you can measure the input energy that was used to impart the movement?
Energy and momentum conservation both have to happen. You can't just freely convert between forms of energy. When you do have a mechanism that converts say electrical energy into kinetic energy, physics states that the mechanism will also conserve momentum. If the kinetic energy goes into one object to give it momentum in one direction, the mechanism will need to provide equal and opposite force to something else, and make that something else move in the opposite direction. Kinetic energy will not necessarily be distributed equally for equal momentum distribution if the objects have different masses. (And photons are a valid thing that could be either of the things that end up with momentum)
Please clarify a couple of points. It seems the general thinking on the EmDrive is that what happens in the cavity stays in the cavity, except thermal photons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems all those bouncing microwaves inside would induce currents in the EmDrive surface which themselves would produce fields and photons outside which thus can shed momentum. And even just considering thermal photons, couldn't the truncated cone shape preferentially radiate power in one direction? Thanks.
RF should not be able to significantly escape from a well designed cavity due to RF skin depth in metal, etc. Radiation from surface currents would all be inside the cavity, and is tied in with the process of reflection of the internal waves. Even if it did escape, all you are getting is a photon rocket with the escaped power at best, and there are more direct and efficient ways to make a photon rocket. In this regime, electrodynamics is well tested and understood, so it is unlikely that there is any unknown coupling. Assuming that the emDrive does work by some mechanism, then there would have to be something else carrying away the momentum for momentum conservation to hold. The problem with statements like those from TT and Shawyer are that they claim there is no new physics, and point to no balancing thing carrying away the opposite momentum, yet they still claim momentum conservation.
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#1257
by
rfmwguy
on 01 Aug, 2019 19:57
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Momentum without mass. A point in space with an internal, directional momentum imbalance seeking conservation. It may be as simple as that. Momentum requires no mass exchange. The rocket equation is old news. Spooky action at a distance? Maybe...but cofm is being conserved. The aha moment is when we stop thinking photons are marbles bouncing around in a closed system...its so 17th century.
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#1258
by
meberbs
on 01 Aug, 2019 20:03
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Momentum without mass. A point in space with an internal, directional momentum imbalance seeking conservation. It may be as simple as that. Momentum requires no mass exchange. The rocket equation is old news. Spooky action at a distance? Maybe...but cofm is being conserved. The aha moment is when we stop thinking photons are marbles bouncing around in a closed system...its so 17th century.
Photons are massless particles that have momentum. That is something that is rigorously treated in special relativity. It turns out that for purposes of easier understanding, you can think of them as tiny regular particles carrying around momentum in the direction they move and get the right answers. It is ok to do this since scientists have done the rigorous math and shown that it all adds up.
Do you have an actual suggestion on an alternative, or are you just throwing words around?
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#1259
by
rfmwguy
on 01 Aug, 2019 20:16
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Oh yeah, I have suggestions on where the answer lies. In fact most all papers I've read are all saying about the same thing in different terms. Mass generates momentum we call gravity...massless objects generate what science fiction calls antigravity. But these are just words...no one should think any more about it.
)