Author Topic: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test  (Read 5888 times)


Offline Rocket Science

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #1 on: 05/01/2018 12:30 AM »
Beefy article Philip, thank you! :)
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Offline charlielowndes

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #2 on: 05/01/2018 11:46 AM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Secondly, why wouldn't you perform a parachute landing? you can never have enough knowledge of parachute performance (you could test one out scenario for example) There is a requirement to get data back physically, yet NASA have resorted to physical ejection, what lessons will be learnt from that?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

Offline Jim

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #3 on: 05/01/2018 04:18 PM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

It is the algorithms and processed that are being tested and not the software

k?

Secondly, why wouldn't you perform a parachute landing? you can never have enough knowledge of parachute performance (you could test one out scenario for example) There is a requirement to get data back physically, yet NASA have resorted to physical ejection, what lessons will be learnt from that?


recovery of the vehicle adds more complexity and costs.


Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #4 on: 05/01/2018 05:20 PM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

It is the algorithms and processed that are being tested and not the software

k?

Secondly, why wouldn't you perform a parachute landing? you can never have enough knowledge of parachute performance (you could test one out scenario for example) There is a requirement to get data back physically, yet NASA have resorted to physical ejection, what lessons will be learnt from that?


recovery of the vehicle adds more complexity and costs.

...but sure ain't test-as-you-fly... :(
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Online Lar

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #5 on: 05/01/2018 10:27 PM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

It is the algorithms and processed that are being tested and not the software

I'm a software guy so this confuses me. Software IS "algorithms and processes" ...
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline charlielowndes

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #6 on: 05/02/2018 09:43 AM »
It just seems to be a bit of a mash up, looking busy, really, weíre not doing anything of substance soon type deal.

I get that you donít need to do full up testing anymore, but this activity seems to test very little other than some subsystems that are not even being run in flight systems.

I struggle to see the value, but hey, Iím no NASA engineer!

Offline Jim

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #7 on: 05/02/2018 01:31 PM »
It just seems to be a bit of a mash up, looking busy, really, weíre not doing anything of substance soon type deal.

I get that you donít need to do full up testing anymore, but this activity seems to test very little other than some subsystems that are not even being run in flight systems.

I struggle to see the value, but hey, Iím no NASA engineer!

It is testing the abort system and not the capsule

Offline Jim

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #8 on: 05/02/2018 01:39 PM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

It is the algorithms and processed that are being tested and not the software

I'm a software guy so this confuses me. Software IS "algorithms and processes" ...

Do I really need to spell this out?  It is no different than an app for Mac vs Windows.  The "algorithms and processes" are the same.
« Last Edit: 05/02/2018 01:39 PM by Jim »

Offline Oberon_Command

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #9 on: 05/02/2018 01:50 PM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

It is the algorithms and processed that are being tested and not the software

I'm a software guy so this confuses me. Software IS "algorithms and processes" ...

It sounds like what they're doing is taking some components of the flight software and putting them in a virtual machine that that makes the GNC software think it's running on the flight hardware, when actually it's running on the AA-2 hardware, making the whole thing an elaborate kind of integration test harness. As a software guy, surely you've heard of "virtual machines" and are familiar with the concept of a "test harness" for use in automated testing? :P
« Last Edit: 05/02/2018 01:52 PM by Oberon_Command »

Offline charlielowndes

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #10 on: 05/02/2018 01:56 PM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

It is the algorithms and processed that are being tested and not the software

I'm a software guy so this confuses me. Software IS "algorithms and processes" ...

It sounds like what they're doing is taking some components of the flight software and putting them in a virtual machine that that makes the GNC software think it's running on the flight hardware, when actually it's running on the AA-2 hardware, making the whole thing an elaborate kind of integration test harness. As a software guy, surely you've heard of "virtual machines" and are familiar with the concept of a "test harness" for use in automated testing? :P

Excuse me Jim.

Donít snip others posts and make them out to be mine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Online whitelancer64

Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #11 on: 05/02/2018 02:04 PM »
The software doesn't care what hardware it's in, so long as it can control the abort system's thrusters correctly. That's really what's being tested here, the control of the thrusters and the aerodynamic performance of the LAS / capsule unit as it flips over.

It is broadcasting telemetry, the ejected data recorders are backups in case of signal degradation or loss at some point.

It would be more expensive since it requires recovery operations, also sunk cost fallacy, but I kinda wish they had stuck with the original plan of reusing the EFT-1 Orion capsule for the in-flight abort test.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Jim

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #12 on: 05/02/2018 02:06 PM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

It is the algorithms and processed that are being tested and not the software

I'm a software guy so this confuses me. Software IS "algorithms and processes" ...

It sounds like what they're doing is taking some components of the flight software and putting them in a virtual machine that that makes the GNC software think it's running on the flight hardware, when actually it's running on the AA-2 hardware, making the whole thing an elaborate kind of integration test harness. As a software guy, surely you've heard of "virtual machines" and are familiar with the concept of a "test harness" for use in automated testing? :P

Excuse me Jim.

Donít snip others posts and make them out to be mine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did no such thing. 

Offline charlielowndes

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #13 on: 05/02/2018 04:45 PM »
Your post 8 contains snips of post 2 (Mine) and post 5 (Lars), combined to make them look like mine.


Online Chris Bergin

Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #14 on: 05/02/2018 05:10 PM »
Your post 8 contains snips of post 2 (Mine) and post 5 (Lars), combined to make them look like mine.




No, they are quoted correctly. You may just be reading it as one single post, when it's multi-quoted:

Offline Starlab90

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #15 on: 05/02/2018 05:49 PM »
Some years back, there was a concern that the Launch Abort Vehicle (LAV), which consists of the Orion CM + LAS, was aerodynamically unstable at transonic and low supersonic velocities. So, I'm interested in see the LAS pull the CM off the Abort Test Booster and fly straight, leaving the CM in a stable attitude from which it could deploy parachutes.

After the performance of the parachute system on EFT-1, I see no need for parachutes in this test. I do think it is bad public relations to not have the parachutes, and to crash the CM on camera. That video will show up in way too many movies and TV shows. :)

The Orion software that deals with a LAS abort is a small subset of the total Orion software. Pulling together a full software load for this test would take too much time and distract from preparing for EM-1, so I think Orion is doing the right thing, here. I'm looking forward to this test!

Great article!

Online whitelancer64

Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #16 on: 05/03/2018 07:54 PM »
Some years back, there was a concern that the Launch Abort Vehicle (LAV), which consists of the Orion CM + LAS, was aerodynamically unstable at transonic and low supersonic velocities. So, I'm interested in see the LAS pull the CM off the Abort Test Booster and fly straight, leaving the CM in a stable attitude from which it could deploy parachutes.

After the performance of the parachute system on EFT-1, I see no need for parachutes in this test. I do think it is bad public relations to not have the parachutes, and to crash the CM on camera. That video will show up in way too many movies and TV shows. :)

The Orion software that deals with a LAS abort is a small subset of the total Orion software. Pulling together a full software load for this test would take too much time and distract from preparing for EM-1, so I think Orion is doing the right thing, here. I'm looking forward to this test!

Great article!
NASA has done a ton of parachute testing. They've done several drop tests per year for the past few years, with 17 development drop tests and 8 drop tests for qualification (there's one or two more drop tests yet). It's one of the most thoroughly demonstrated systems on Orion.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-completes-orion-parachute-development-tests-0

"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Online Lar

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #17 on: 05/03/2018 07:59 PM »
There are a couple of bits I don't get from this test. Firstly, in terms of software development, is the test an actual real world test if the software they are using to abort is flight software embedded in non flight software? How does that work?

Is this just a keeping people busy activity?

It is the algorithms and processed that are being tested and not the software

I'm a software guy so this confuses me. Software IS "algorithms and processes" ...

It sounds like what they're doing is taking some components of the flight software and putting them in a virtual machine that that makes the GNC software think it's running on the flight hardware, when actually it's running on the AA-2 hardware, making the whole thing an elaborate kind of integration test harness. As a software guy, surely you've heard of "virtual machines" and are familiar with the concept of a "test harness" for use in automated testing? :P

I absolutely know what virtual machines are, I'm posting from one (I run Linux on my laptop but have a windows VM)
I absolutely know what test harnesses are, I'm writing one on my client's cluster of VMs as we speak. (well, I was, till I stopped to post this))

What wasn't clear to me was the distinction Jim was trying to draw between "software" and "algorithms and processes" Reading what everyone else said, he's wrong.  There is no distinction, and it is indeed software that's being tested, although it might have been ported to run on a simulator or emulator rather than the flight hardware. It's still the same software, or very close (perhaps it went through a slightly different build process, but I would hope not, it should still be built with the same toolchain) just running on different hardware. That's not quite the same as Windows vs Mac as usually there are a LOT of differences even if the basic algs are similar.

I hope that puts this to rest.... and that we can dial back the snark about who knows what.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline litton4

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #18 on: 05/04/2018 07:43 AM »
I thought it was "Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs"

(Old IT Guy, here, from the days of "Goto considered harmful" and "Real programmers don't eat Quiche")
« Last Edit: 05/04/2018 07:44 AM by litton4 »
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Offline jacqmans

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Re: NASA getting Orion Simulator Ready for AA-2 test
« Reply #19 on: 06/26/2018 08:34 AM »
The first of three aeroshells for Orion's Launch Abort System (LAS) arrives by truck in High Bay 4 inside the Vehicle Assembly Building at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, on June 19, 2018. The aeroshell was shipped from EMF Inc. on nearby Merritt Island. The aeroshells will be stacked and prepared for a full-stress test of the LAS, called Ascent Abort-2 (AA-2) flight test, scheduled for April 2019. During the test, a booster will launch from Space Launch Complex 46 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, carrying a fully functional LAS and a 22,000-pound Orion test vehicle to an altitude of 31,000 feet and traveling at more than 1,000 miles an hour. The test will verify the LAS can steer the crew module and astronauts aboard to safety in the event of an issue with the Space Launch System (SLS) rocket when the spacecraft is under the highest aerodynamic loads it will experience during a rapid climb into space. Orion is being prepared for its first integrated uncrewed flight atop the SLS on Exploration Mission-1.

Photo credit: NASA/Charles Babir

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