Author Topic: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)  (Read 36796 times)

Offline Joffan

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #40 on: 05/30/2018 05:20 pm »
So the due date on bids was 29 May, yesterday - any word on how many bids and from whom?

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=46b23a8f2c06da6ac08e1d1d2ae97d35&tab=documents&tabmode=list
« Last Edit: 05/30/2018 08:34 pm by Joffan »
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Online theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #41 on: 05/31/2018 12:04 am »
So the due date on bids was 29 May, yesterday - any word on how many bids and from whom?

I don't think that's right.  That may have just been for comments on the draft RFP?  Or a placeholder date?  But yeah, it was a draft RFP, and the real RFP isn't going to be released until July, with proposals due currently slated for August 20 (the official date will be in the real RFP).


Offline Joffan

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #42 on: 06/04/2018 11:56 pm »
So the due date on bids was 29 May, yesterday - any word on how many bids and from whom?

I don't think that's right.  That may have just been for comments on the draft RFP?  Or a placeholder date?  But yeah, it was a draft RFP, and the real RFP isn't going to be released until July, with proposals due currently slated for August 20 (the official date will be in the real RFP).


Thanks; reading through the "Final_CLP_Cover_Letter" I found:
Quote
NASA anticipates that the Final Request for Proposal (RFP) will be released in mid-July 2018 with proposals being due 30 calendar days later.
which aligns well enough with your diagram.
« Last Edit: 06/04/2018 11:56 pm by Joffan »
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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #43 on: 06/05/2018 06:45 am »
Thanks; reading through the "Final_CLP_Cover_Letter" I found:
Quote
NASA anticipates that the Final Request for Proposal (RFP) will be released in mid-July 2018 with proposals being due 30 calendar days later.
which aligns well enough with your diagram.

The above was also in the Industry Day slides, which were posted up-thread but look like they could use another mention.

In a tiny bit of almost-news (or at least some quotes to do Kremlinology on), I got a chance to watch a bit of the MSFC LOP-G Roadshow Spectacular, and in what I did see, CLPS and friends is portrayed thus:

* The 2019 CLPS date is couched as, "Flights as early as the end of 2019... but we'll see if Industry is ready to go fly those..."

* It's clear they view CLPS as a follow on to the work done by the Lunar CATALYST folks: Astrobotics, Masten, and Moon Express.

* The mid-sized lander project (ACSC, which is not CLPS) is "NASA's effort to build the capability to go do a human landing again. So we have budget and a direction to start making progress towards building landers."

The plan for ACSC still hasn't totally resolved for me. I can't tell if it's supposed to be Big Boy CLPS or a more traditional development process. The slides say "in partnership with industry" a lot but, while encouraging, that isn't enough for me to make heads or tails of it just yet. We'll have to wait for the promised solicitation to know exactly what the plan is, I think. That's supposed to come after analyzing the RFI responses, which came in back at the end of April. From the Industry Day slides, ACSC is slated to get about $1B over the course of five years, with the first mid-sized lander in 2022. A Roadshow slide implied the first large lander in 2026.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #44 on: 06/05/2018 12:31 pm »
I hope the final Request for Proposal is run through a spelling checker. It is unprofessional to have spelling mistakes on the Federal Business Opportunities website twice.

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #45 on: 06/05/2018 07:45 pm »
Finally finished the MSFC video.  I was expecting only LOP-G info in the rest of the video, but luckily I was wrong.  More takeaways:

* CLPS is about "spinning off" the work that they've done with Lunar CATALYST.
(which can be seen as: expect Lunar CATALYST partners for initial CLPS contracts)

* ACSC is about "leveraging work that was done towards Resource Prospector [...] Instead, what we've done is taken that Resource Prospector lander and evolved it into the Lunar Pallet Lander."

Lunar Pallet Lander presentation from 2015:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20150016539.pdf

So ACSC may just be LPL to start. (Edit: Actually, looking at the slides below, it might be the case that the LPL is the 2022 mid-sized landing, and a cryogenic mid-sized lander is the 2024 landing.)

* The Astrobiotics Peregrine Lander was cited to use, and the Pallet Lander was cited to potentially use, the Deep Space Engine, which looks to be a new name for ISE-100 (though I'm not positive).  There's a presentation PDF on ISE-100 in this post (the attachment you want is 16-Alexander):

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39263.msg1617881#msg1617881

* Future ACSC work:

Quote
You might see a precursor for a human-rated system in 2026. Cryogenic Fluid Management is going to be a key part of that. Once the landed mass goes above a certain amount, several thousand kilograms, it becomes much more beneficial to use cryogenics rather than hypergolics. And Marshall plays a role in that. We have a fairly active Cryogenic Fluid Management program, and a lot of that technology development work is going on in support of those future lander activities.

To the right there, you're seeing a lunar sample return. Marshall is leading the development of a Mars Ascent Vehicle, which is part of a Mars sample return. So this is also an area that we're contributing in, and technology will flow back and forth.

* There was also a 5000kg Mars lander tucked away in the corner of a slide with all the Lunar projects.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2018 08:03 pm by theinternetftw »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #46 on: 06/06/2018 04:30 am »
Lunar Pallet lander would be good fit with ULA ACES. ACES can deliver pallet to few 1000ft from surface then separate, no need for addidtional propulsion module. Lander only needs to worry about finally landing stage. ACES would provide all comms, navigation and power up till separation. Given Vulcan performance should be good for few tons.


Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #47 on: 06/07/2018 04:00 am »
Lunar Pallet lander would be good fit with ULA ACES. ACES can deliver pallet to few 1000ft from surface then separate, no need for addidtional propulsion module. Lander only needs to worry about finally landing stage. ACES would provide all comms, navigation and power up till separation. Given Vulcan performance should be good for few tons.



Masten Space are expecting to attach 4 of their 1,000 lbf Machete engines to the sides of Centaurs (ACES) to produce a lander. An alternative is to attach say a 4,000 lbf Katana (LOX/IPA) to a Lunar Pallet.

Offline Gliderflyer

Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #48 on: 06/07/2018 10:45 pm »
* The Astrobiotics Peregrine Lander was cited to use, and the Pallet Lander was cited to potentially use, the Deep Space Engine, which looks to be a new name for ISE-100 (though I'm not positive).  There's a presentation PDF on ISE-100 in this post (the attachment you want is 16-Alexander):
Judging from the picture of the Deep Space Engine, it appears to be made by Frontier Aerospace and not Aerojet Rocketdyne: http://www.frontier.us/projects.html
I tried it at home

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #49 on: 06/08/2018 03:57 am »
Judging from the picture of the Deep Space Engine, it appears to be made by Frontier Aerospace and not Aerojet Rocketdyne: http://www.frontier.us/projects.html

Yes. That caught my eye. A little more digging revealed this:

Quote
April 2017:

AR has been unable to close the fault tree from the anomalies discovered during hot fire. AR’s solution was to redesign the thruster and go back into “workhorse” testing. There was never any dollars in the project to go through a redesign. The subsequent estimate to go back into “workhorse” testing and then into qual to estimates to complete were well above the amount that GCD provided.

Once we received an updated estimate from AR we informed GCD of the problems and attempted to negotiate with AR. Subsequent conversations with AR to reduce their estimate have been unsuccessful.

Mitigation Steps:

Coordinate financial partnering between HEOMD and STMD in order to award a contract using an MDA Phase III SBIR

Thus Frontier?



Edit: and add to that, this:

Quote
Frontier Aerospace completed risk reduction testing of the 100-lbf thrust Deep Space Engine (DSE-100) under a Phase III SBIR contract.

Also, if you re-read the DSE slide above, it looks like one bullet point in particular is in response to woes discovered by AR in their test regime: Frontier announces "Stable combustion demonstrated - no signs of acoustic instability!"

That exclamation mark sounds well-earned.

It looks like on July 14th 2017, Frontier took an engine AR was ready give up and go back to the drawing board on (as long as sufficient cash was provided), and got it running smooth in less than 2 months (slide in my last post says test regime was complete September 6th 2017).  And they did it for $500,000 and with a staff of five (if govtribe can be believed).  They've since been given $250,000 in what looks like a milestone payment for successfully completing the test regime, and another $700,000 to keep working on development.

Interesting little details in that govtribe listing, too.  Like how they were given one cent in funding before (I assume) completing a milestone three weeks later, at which point they got the $500,000.

I'd love to hear the story of how Frontier ended up getting this engine going so quickly. The above slide mentions two injector designs.

Interestingly, months after Frontier's accomplishment, it looks like AR then went on to complete ISE-100 testing themselves, with, it seems, none of that NASA cash they claimed they needed to continue, just in May 2018 instead of Sept 2017. Their press release doesn't mention NASA except as a potential customer.

And NASA doesn't mention ISE-100 in their presentations anymore. Instead the DSE.

Fascinating stuff.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2018 12:01 am by theinternetftw »

Online theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #50 on: 06/08/2018 11:02 pm »
A first round of answers to submitted CLPS questions was just posted.  They are attached.

A few things:

* NASA may on-ramp new providers faster than every two years if they see a benefit.
* The initial ACSC mid-sized lander demo is planned for 2022 followed by another demo of increased capability in 2024.
* Whoever develops a mid-sized lander under ACSC can then propose it to service CLPS tasks.
* No traditional NASA level of engagement with the launch process is needed. (e.g. no NASA-level pricing of F9)
* No on-site representatives from NASA needed at the provider.
* Revised statement of work expected next week.
* Another thing to look forward to is an example of a Provider User Guide, which should be coming at some point.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #51 on: 06/12/2018 03:44 pm »
I find the part I've highlighted in red interesting:

Quote
Request For Information: Potential Lunar Payloads

NASA REQUEST FOR INFORMATION ON THE AVAILABILITY OF POTENTIAL LUNAR PAYLOADS

NASA’s Science Mission Directorate has released a Request for Information (RFI) to assess availability of potential lunar payloads. NASA has recently released a draft RFP for Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) to provide end-to-end services for payloads to the lunar surface; this RFI is seeking information about potential payloads for these landers. Responses to this RFI are sought broadly from U.S. industry, universities, non-profit organizations, NASA centers, and other U.S. government agencies, and will be used by NASA to further inform planning and acquisition strategy development.

To be ready for launches as early as 2019, NASA is requesting information as to the availability of existing hardware that can be used for flight with little to no payload development necessary. Existing hardware that respondents should consider in responding to this RFI include, but are not limited to: engineering models, flight spares, modified off-the-shelf instruments, etc.

Given the scope and the technical goals of the proposed activity, NASA is considering a much more risk tolerant approach to flight hardware development and integration than is normally adopted by other segments of NASA’s planetary exploration program (e.g., Discovery, New Frontiers), and is willing to accept risk consistent with Class D or Small-Sat payloads. As such, offerors are requested to provide information for those class of payloads and to briefly describe the risks associated with delivering and integrating this hardware.

This information will be used to help formulate a strategy for payload acquisition. NASA anticipates releasing a Program Element Appendix (PEA) to the Stand Alone Missions of Opportunity Notice (SALMON) Announcement of Opportunity (AO) later this summer for lunar payloads. Additionally, responses to this RFI from NASA Centers will be used to assess the availability of potential payloads within NASA and NASA may choose to move forward with these payloads directly.

Responses to this RFI are due via NSPIRES by June 27, 2018. Full text of the RFI, including instructions for submitting a response, can be accessed by following this link or by searching on NNH18ZDA012L at http://solicitation.nasaprs.com/open.

Questions regarding this RFI may be addressed to Dr. Sarah Noble, [email protected]

Posted by: Soderman/SSERVI Staff
Source: NASA

https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/request-for-information-potential-lunar-payloads/

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #52 on: 06/12/2018 06:01 pm »
I find the part I've highlighted in red interesting:

 NASA is considering a much more risk tolerant approach to flight hardware development and integration than is normally adopted

{snip}

So they want the first payloads cheap and fast. Possibly the only way of getting payloads for next year.

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #53 on: 06/27/2018 08:29 pm »
From the FBO site, more detail on the ACSC mid-to-large lander project, now called FLEx and organized under NextSTEP-2.

Takeaways emphasized.

Quote
NextSTEP-2 Appendix E: Flexible Lunar Explorer (FLEx) Landers

NASA intends to release a solicitation under the second Next Space Technologies for Exploration Partnerships (NextSTEP-2) Broad Agency Announcement (BAA) in the near future to seek proposals from industry in support of design analysis, technology maturation, system development and integration, and space flight demonstrations for Flexible Lunar Explorer (FLEX) Landers. The primary objective of this Appendix to the NextSTEP-2 BAA is to enable rapid development and flight demonstrations of medium- to large-scale lunar landers by supporting critical technology advancement and leveraging component- or system-level industry investments. Each flight demonstration will validate lander evolutions of increasing capability and design extensibility to ensure a viable path toward reusable, human-class lunar landers.
 
An important part of NASA's strategy is to stimulate the U.S. space industry while leveraging those same commercial capabilities through partnerships and future contracts to deliver mission capabilities. A key component of the NextSTEP-2 partnership model is that it provides an opportunity for NASA and industry to partner in the development of capabilities that meet NASA human space exploration objectives while also supporting industry commercialization plans for expanding the frontiers of future economic opportunities in space.

This BAA Appendix addresses the development of medium- to large-scale lunar lander capabilities that have extensibility to reusable, human-class landers to a wide range of destinations on the lunar surface. NASA is planning two demonstration missions; one in 2022 and a second in 2024. The objective of these missions is to demonstrate progressive and evolutionary steps toward a reusable, human-class lander, with future missions informed by the outcomes of these initial missions. The first mission will serve as a National Lander Demonstration Mission with NASA serving as the overall system architect and integrator with significant industry participation from multiple sources.

This NextSTEP-2 Appendix E, targeted for release in the early July 2018 timeframe, will include a NASA reference lander configuration to serve as the basis of the Lander for a first flight demonstration by the end of calendar year (CY) 2022. NASA will support critical technology advancement by leveraging industry investments in the design and development of this first medium-size Lander. Contracts awarded under Appendix E will have multiple phases. The first will be for brief studies to refine the reference design lander; these are anticipated to be brief with succinct products to assist in the development of the lander mission for flight in 2022. Appendix E will also seek identification of enabling, currently available (or nearly available), critical technologies (such as precision landing) to be integrated into the reference lander design. Following any awards under the initial study phase, NASA anticipates exercising options that will include mission risk reduction, technology maturation activities, system integration and test, and culminating in launch and landing operations.

This NextSTEP Appendix will also include studies to identify technologies that could enable future larger scale landers and for the analysis of future mission design options to be considered for the 2024 and beyond missions. NASA will use the information gained through these initial studies to inform the performance requirements for the 2024 lander and will work with industry to continue to mature the approach for these future missions. Opportunities for industry to further support technology advancement for the 2024 demonstration landing, to include evolvable propulsion systems and other advanced capabilities, will be identified in a future NextSTEP-2 BAA appendix.

Offline su27k

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #54 on: 06/28/2018 03:28 am »
From the FBO site, more detail on the ACSC mid-to-large lander project, now called FLEx and organized under NextSTEP-2.

Takeaways emphasized.

Quote
The first mission will serve as a National Lander Demonstration Mission with NASA serving as the overall system architect and integrator with significant industry participation from multiple sources.

This is alarming and disappointing, it looks like NASA is determined to throw away the public private partnership model that makes COTS so successful and is going back to its cost-plus model for mid/large lunar lander. I wonder if this is why Bezos is courting foreign space agencies and making announcements on IAC 18, he may have realized NASA has no interest in letting industry designing the lander.

Online theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #55 on: 06/28/2018 06:41 am »
This is alarming and disappointing, it looks like NASA is determined to throw away the public private partnership model that makes COTS so successful and is going back to its cost-plus model for mid/large lunar lander.

There was already talk that the new lander would be based on the Lunar Pallet Lander, a design that had been under work for Resource Prospector, so NASA being "overall system architect" fits right in.  If CLPS is trying to refine the COTS methodology, then FLEx is... the other one.

I'm holding out hope that what's going on here is NASA is trying to find a way for it to still be an engineering house in an age of modern, sane contracting.

That means FLEx might not be cost-plus.  It could be that NASA makes a base design, then lets multiple sane, limited, competed contracts to industry for design refinement and iteration, technology demonstration, and so on.

The Appendix should reveal more, come July.

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #56 on: 06/28/2018 07:25 am »
From the FBO site, more detail on the ACSC mid-to-large lander project, now called FLEx and organized under NextSTEP-2.

Takeaways emphasized.

Quote
The first mission will serve as a National Lander Demonstration Mission with NASA serving as the overall system architect and integrator with significant industry participation from multiple sources.

This is alarming and disappointing, it looks like NASA is determined to throw away the public private partnership model that makes COTS so successful and is going back to its cost-plus model for mid/large lunar lander. I wonder if this is why Bezos is courting foreign space agencies and making announcements on IAC 18, he may have realized NASA has no interest in letting industry designing the lander.

If it is as you fear than that is just plain stupid IMO.

NASA should restrict itself to just setting high-level requirements and then let industry come up with a lander designed to fulfill those high-level requirements.

And with high-level requirements I really mean high-level requirement. Not detailed ones like chewing out what types of material to use for MLI or detailing that screws and bolts should be made from stainless steel.

Online QuantumG

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #57 on: 06/28/2018 08:23 am »
NASA should restrict itself to just setting high-level requirements and then let industry come up with a lander designed to fulfill those high-level requirements.

Well, you could see 'em doing that for cargo delivery. The oversight would be minimal - don't crash into the base - but T-shirts and tang delivered by partners, great stuff.

Crew? Well, the astronauts have to be wrapped in cotton wool. See CCDev.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #58 on: 06/28/2018 09:26 am »
NASA should restrict itself to just setting high-level requirements and then let industry come up with a lander designed to fulfill those high-level requirements.

Well, you could see 'em doing that for cargo delivery. The oversight would be minimal - don't crash into the base - but T-shirts and tang delivered by partners, great stuff.

Crew? Well, the astronauts have to be wrapped in cotton wool. See CCDev.


There are a few extra requirements because lunar landers need legs that work in the extreme cold but with about 1 weeks work it should be possible to produce viable draft lunar standards from CCDev, Lunar CATALYST/CLPS and LOP-G standards and requirements documents.

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #59 on: 07/05/2018 04:05 am »
CLPS Q&A 2 has been posted.  It's more inside-baseball than the first.  Mostly a lot of attempts to get rid of various clauses in the DRFP.

What did stand out:

* On-ramping will start in 2020 (A potential provider wanted it started in 2019)

* Another potential provider wanted the deadline for delivering 10kg to the moon to be changed from 2021 to 2024. Not happening.

* NASA will not require on-site representatives.

* NASA is not willing to say they'll give up rights to inventions made with government funds to service the contracts.  Small businesses (< 1500 employees) can get out of it by patenting the invention.  Large businesses have to get NASA to issue waivers (which they'll do at their discretion).

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