Author Topic: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)  (Read 36737 times)

Offline Markstark

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #20 on: 05/08/2018 01:41 pm »
Industry Day is ongoing. I recommend checking out Marcia Smithís twitter timeline for real-time updates if you canít listen to the webex call.

Online edzieba

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #21 on: 05/10/2018 12:01 pm »
More importantly, Kilopower can be modified to work with LEU. Cuts margins for error, kills the elegance, and adds mass, but it's a viable alternative to HEU if political barriers prove impenetrable. PI discusses that briefly in an email quoted here.
https://beyondnerva.wordpress.com/2018/05/02/krusty-we-have-fission-kilopower-part-iii/
Thanks for the link, that's a very interesting website.

Online theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #22 on: 05/10/2018 03:13 pm »
Industry Day is ongoing. I recommend checking out Marcia Smithís twitter timeline for real-time updates if you canít listen to the webex call.

And here's her full write-up:

https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/bridenstine-promises-this-wont-be-lucy-and-the-football-again/

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #23 on: 05/10/2018 08:16 pm »

And here's her full write-up:

https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/bridenstine-promises-this-wont-be-lucy-and-the-football-again/

The simplest way to ensure the football does not get taken away is to get to the Moon before Trump's second term is up.

The next president will want a new name for the Moon base and lunar exploration project. A draft version of the policy can be waiting for him.

Offline speedevil

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #24 on: 05/10/2018 08:34 pm »
The simplest way to ensure the football does not get taken away is to
convince the usual aerospace suspects that there is money to be made this way, and they should lobby for it.

Online theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #25 on: 05/14/2018 01:37 am »
Here are the slides for Industry Day.

They're in an imgur album as I had trouble uploading the pdf. Even if you already the pdf, you may want these instead, as I've rotated them correctly.

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #26 on: 05/14/2018 06:56 am »
Things that stood out:

* Only American launch vehicles can launch the landers (as one might expect, but this has now been spelled out).

* The way CLPS works: vendors will answer the RFP and maybe win, NASA will then over the next ten years issue tasks for the winning vendors to compete over, with the chance to add new vendors every two years at NASA's discretion.  Each task will usually only be won by one vendor.

* Initial 2019 payloads will be whatever we've got lying around. Retro-reflectors, engineering models/spares, student built hardware, or off-the-shelf hardware.  This is solicited under SALMON-3 (Standalone Mission of Opportunity Notice). 15kg limit per instrument. Expect to select 8-12 instruments by Summer 2019. No guarantee that all instruments will fly.

* Early landers expected to last one lunar day. Workshop on surviving lunar night to be held this fall.

* Solicitation for lunar smallsat ridealongs via SIMPLEx-2 (Small Innovative Mission for Planetary Exploration).

* January lander payload/science workshop video available at: https://lunar-landing.arc.nasa.gov/program

* The payload development program is called DALI: Development and Advancement of Lunar Instrumentation. Payload goals are exploration, ISRU, lunar science.  First deadline was in April, flight opportunities start in 2021.

* 71 proposals received for DALI: Spectrometers (UV/Vis/IR/Thermal/Mass/Raman/Neutron/Gamma/), Dust/plasma/solar, seismic, heat flow, laser ranging, magnetometers, radar, lidar, laser-induced breakdown spectroscopy, x-ray diffraction/fluorescence, volatile detection, radiation detection.

* STMD plans to use landers for tech demonstrators. Potential payloads include demonstrators on: precision landing/hazard avoidance, power generation (solar and fission), ISRU, cryogenic fluid management, autonomous ops/sensing, and advanced avionics/mobility/mechanisms/materials.

* Mid-sized (500kg-1000kg) lander program: Advanced Cis-Lunar and Surface Capabilities (ACSC). Received RFI responses about this at the end of April. Solicitation for development toward first lander for a 2022 mission will come after analysis of responses.  Next lander looks to be in 2024.

* Plan to grow that capability towards human-class (5000kg) landers.  Selecting towards reusability: Engines with multiple restarts and deep throttling, propellant combinations ("LOX at least for descent"), precision landing, reliability.

* ~150-300M a year for mid-sized lander dev (ACSC).  ~500M a year for LOP-G for reference.


Offline john smith 19

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #27 on: 05/14/2018 07:05 am »
Here are the slides for Industry Day.

They're in an imgur album as I had trouble uploading the pdf. Even if you already the pdf, you may want these instead, as I've rotated them correctly.
Interesting. There seems to be an actual sense of urgency here to do something. Lunar-Transport-as-a-Service

So which US providers can soft land at least 10Kg on the Moons surface by Dec 31 2021?
Could RocketLab handle the additional issues of getting a payload into Lunar orbit, then onto the surface?

It seems NASA is starting to realize that only effective competition can lower their costs and speed up their schedules and you do that by setting clear goals for what you're looking for.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #28 on: 05/14/2018 07:09 am »
Couple of take-aways:

Quote from: NASA
Statement of Work (SOW) at contract level provides top level functional requirements.
The SOW at the Task Order Level provides specific requirements for each Task Order.
IMO this is exactly the kind of RFI/RFP language that will turn CLPS in yet another CCP-like bureaucratic mess of too many highly detailed requirements and the overly intrusive NASA insight that comes with it.


Quote from: NASA
The prime contractor shall provide in performance in performance of this contract (or any task orders awarded thereunder) only launch vehicles that are domestic end products.
This allows Atlas V to compete, despite having Russian engines, because Atlas V, as an end product, is a US domestic product.
Same goes for Antares, which is over 50 percent foreign built.
In fact, this allows a launch vehicle to be entirely of foreign origin, as long as final assembly is done in the USA.


Quote from: NASA
The Technical Acceptability Standards are as follows:
- The offeror's ability to provide an intact lunar landed mission that delivers at least 10 kg of NASA payload before December 31, 2021.
Nice to see NASA adhere to metric units.
And this deadline rules out the use of BFR/BFS by SpaceX to compete for this contract.
However, this RFI/RFP should be very interesting to several of the former Google Lunar X-prize competitors.
« Last Edit: 05/14/2018 07:10 am by woods170 »

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #29 on: 05/14/2018 09:28 am »
Here are the slides for Industry Day.

They're in an imgur album as I had trouble uploading the pdf. Even if you already the pdf, you may want these instead, as I've rotated them correctly.

The Master contracts will be issued in January of next year (2019) - information of interest to the contractor's bank managers.

The $25k task each firm gets is to write a User Guide - the one development document that people actually use since they define the customer's interfaces.

Scope Of Work (SOW) are actually useful documents since it is a list of the things the contractor's project manager has to make. This assumes the the document is no longer than 2 to 3 pages.

Offline speedevil

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #30 on: 05/14/2018 09:52 am »
* Initial 2019 payloads will be whatever we've got lying around. Retro-reflectors, engineering models/spares, student built hardware, or off-the-shelf hardware.  This is solicited under SALMON-3 (Standalone Mission of Opportunity Notice). 15kg limit per instrument. Expect to select 8-12 instruments by Summer 2019. No guarantee that all instruments will fly.
This could in some senses be the most interesting part.
Very low barrier to entry and ramp up that TRL.

Offline envy887

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #31 on: 05/14/2018 01:41 pm »
Quote from: NASA
The Technical Acceptability Standards are as follows:
- The offeror's ability to provide an intact lunar landed mission that delivers at least 10 kg of NASA payload before December 31, 2021.
And this deadline rules out the use of BFR/BFS by SpaceX to compete for this contract.

It's possible (though unlikely) that SpaceX could hit that date. SpaceX still appears to be working to the 2022 Mars window, which is only a few months after that deadline. They are tentatively planning suborbital launches (early) in 2019, and orbital launches in 2020. A BFR/BFS launched without any recovery hardware and fully expended could land several tonnes on the lunar surface in a single launch without orbital refueling.


Offline testguy

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #32 on: 05/14/2018 02:51 pm »
IMHO this is not the vision to drive young talented students to want to study science and engineering in order to make humanity space fairing.  I understand that may not be an objective.  However, our nation is long, long, long over do for a vision that would do just that.  Sorry, I'm just expressing my frustration and NOT trying to blow up this tread.  This is just one opinion.
« Last Edit: 05/14/2018 02:52 pm by testguy »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #33 on: 05/14/2018 03:08 pm »
Nice to see NASA adhere to metric units.
And this deadline rules out the use of BFR/BFS by SpaceX to compete for this contract.
However, this RFI/RFP should be very interesting to several of the former Google Lunar X-prize competitors.
Not entirely.

There are "on ramps" at 2 yearly intervals up until year 8 of the 10 year programme.

So while I agree it's unlikely SX will make the limit with BFS it could certainly through F9 in the ring and (at a stretch) FH, assuming it picks up more successful flights before the closing date, which seems possible as well.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline envy887

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #34 on: 05/14/2018 03:25 pm »
Nice to see NASA adhere to metric units.
And this deadline rules out the use of BFR/BFS by SpaceX to compete for this contract.
However, this RFI/RFP should be very interesting to several of the former Google Lunar X-prize competitors.
Not entirely.

There are "on ramps" at 2 yearly intervals up until year 8 of the 10 year programme.

So while I agree it's unlikely SX will make the limit with BFS it could certainly through F9 in the ring and (at a stretch) FH, assuming it picks up more successful flights before the closing date, which seems possible as well.

CLPS is for a lander. F9 and FH are not landers. They would be appropriate LV's for someone else's lander, but that's not the same thing.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #35 on: 05/14/2018 03:36 pm »
Nice to see NASA adhere to metric units.
And this deadline rules out the use of BFR/BFS by SpaceX to compete for this contract.
However, this RFI/RFP should be very interesting to several of the former Google Lunar X-prize competitors.
Not entirely.

There are "on ramps" at 2 yearly intervals up until year 8 of the 10 year programme.

So while I agree it's unlikely SX will make the limit with BFS it could certainly through F9 in the ring and (at a stretch) FH, assuming it picks up more successful flights before the closing date, which seems possible as well.

CLPS work orders cover the entire journey. The landers will need a way of getting from the Earth's surface to Trans-Luna Injection (TLI). The Electron launch vehicle used by Moon Express is small so there are possible subcontracts for the Falcon 9 and Atlas V. Larger cargoes could be lifted by the Falcon Heavy. Some cargoes may stage at a space station in lunar orbit.

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #36 on: 05/15/2018 02:15 am »
Quote from: NASA
Statement of Work (SOW) at contract level provides top level functional requirements.
The SOW at the Task Order Level provides specific requirements for each Task Order.
IMO this is exactly the kind of RFI/RFP language that will turn CLPS in yet another CCP-like bureaucratic mess of too many highly detailed requirements and the overly intrusive NASA insight that comes with it.

From the contract SOW, it doesn't look like this is a bring N kg to X location situation, where you set N and X in stone and do it over and over again. They're leaving it open for each mission to be quite different.

I think it'll take seeing a few of these task SOW to know if they're the result of reasonable payload/mission differences, an attempt to take advantage of an array of varied lander capabilities by creating different levels of task and requirement, a misguided breaking of the "bus line to the moon" idea with too many differences between missions to allow for high cadence, or what.

Edit: grammar
« Last Edit: 05/15/2018 02:23 am by theinternetftw »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #37 on: 05/16/2018 06:42 am »
Nice to see NASA adhere to metric units.
And this deadline rules out the use of BFR/BFS by SpaceX to compete for this contract.
However, this RFI/RFP should be very interesting to several of the former Google Lunar X-prize competitors.
Not entirely.

There are "on ramps" at 2 yearly intervals up until year 8 of the 10 year programme.

So while I agree it's unlikely SX will make the limit with BFS it could certainly through F9 in the ring and (at a stretch) FH, assuming it picks up more successful flights before the closing date, which seems possible as well.

CLPS is for a lander. F9 and FH are not landers. They would be appropriate LV's for someone else's lander, but that's not the same thing.
Then this will be a very interesting exercise in seeing who reckons they have the skills to front end a lander onto an F9 or FH launch.

The obvious candidates for this are of course Boeing, LM and NG. It would be interesting if they can swallow their corporate pride and specify SX for the LV component.

Of course it would be very exciting if there are some mammals running around beneath the feet of the dinosaurs.....
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline saliva_sweet

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #38 on: 05/16/2018 05:30 pm »
And this deadline rules out the use of BFR/BFS by SpaceX to compete for this contract.

In theory they could offer a Dragon2 based lander. If it weren't such a dud.

Offline speedevil

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #39 on: 05/16/2018 07:40 pm »
And this deadline rules out the use of BFR/BFS by SpaceX to compete for this contract.

In theory they could offer a Dragon2 based lander. If it weren't such a dud.

Are there any hardware readiness requirements other than 'we don't believe you will hit that, so we will not accept your bid'?

Is there a possible route to bidding two architectures - for example, SpaceX could 'trivially' develop a D2 based lander, but in 2020, it's going to become clear if they can develop a much cheaper route.

So, for example 'In 2021, we commit to either landing 1 ton on the lunar surface in Dragon 2, or 20 tons with BFS'.


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