Author Topic: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)  (Read 36738 times)

Offline GWH

Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #160 on: 12/01/2018 03:37 am »
Astrobotic (Peregrine Lander)
   - Does its own TLI from either GTO, or perhaps some kind of special super-GTO (hard to tell)

Intuitive Machines (Nova-C)
   - Does its own TLI from what looks like GTO

I feel like the systems that stage from GTO or LEO should have a better chance of commercial success than those that need the LV to take them to TLI. ULA, Blue Origin and Arianespace all offer dual payload launches, and are likely to have the extra capacity. For ULA it may be as "simple" as adding on a few extra solids.

Quote
Draper / iSpace (Artemis-7)
Is it known how the SpaceX ride shares would be handled for their launches?

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #161 on: 12/01/2018 04:16 am »
I feel like the systems that stage from GTO or LEO should have a better chance of commercial success than those that need the LV to take them to TLI.

The landscape for this is kind of a bit more complicated than it might first appear.  For example Astrobotic says they have the ability to use launches that have a LEO primary payload, but I think based on the materials released so far that by that they mean they have the second stage do a GTO-ish burn after the primary mission has been dropped off in LEO (or a bigger burn than that, even. They don't call it a GTO burn, so it's unclear, but it's less than TLI).

It also looks like they're gunning for missions where they *do* get a TLI burn.  The way they get that is by sending multiple Peregrines on the same flight and becoming the primary payload.  I think getting a TLI may be the only way they get full payload numbers.  So even the providers that aren't receiving TLIs on the first mission might want TLIs for the propellant savings, and that might even be built into their architecture.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2018 04:21 am by theinternetftw »

Offline ringsider

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #162 on: 12/01/2018 04:52 pm »

The landscape for this is kind of a bit more complicated than it might first appear.  For example Astrobotic says

<snip>


The day when we rely on what Astrobotic says is a long, long way away.

Offline GWH

Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #163 on: 12/01/2018 05:58 pm »
The landscape for this is kind of a bit more complicated than it might first appear.  For example Astrobotic says they have the ability to use launches that have a LEO primary payload, but I think based on the materials released so far that by that they mean they have the second stage do a GTO-ish burn after the primary mission has been dropped off in LEO (or a bigger burn than that, even. They don't call it a GTO burn, so it's unclear, but it's less than TLI).

It also looks like they're gunning for missions where they *do* get a TLI burn.  The way they get that is by sending multiple Peregrines on the same flight and becoming the primary payload.  I think getting a TLI may be the only way they get full payload numbers.  So even the providers that aren't receiving TLIs on the first mission might want TLIs for the propellant savings, and that might even be built into their architecture.

Oh right. I thought I recalled  a video showing their lander as the secondary payload of a Cygnus launch on Atlas V.  I managed to track it down, they show an Atlas V 531 instead of the 401 a Cygnus would usually require: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=93&v=ncitbVZz1dk

I didn't realize some landers were banking on higher capacities by launching further out of Earth's gravity well. That's a good strategy in my opinion, produce one size of lander and scale up the launcher and its launch costs to suit the mission requirements.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2018 05:59 pm by GWH »

Offline speedevil

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #164 on: 12/01/2018 07:22 pm »
I feel like the systems that stage from GTO or LEO should have a better chance of commercial success than those that need the LV to take them to TLI. ULA, Blue Origin and Arianespace all offer dual payload launches, and are likely to have the extra capacity. For ULA it may be as "simple" as adding on a few extra solids.
To raise a silly point.
Assuming a very risk tolerant ridesharing comsat, is it technically plausible that a conventional comsat, with current electric + chemical propulsion could benefit from being taken through, or nearly through TLI?

So it can get on station faster compared with a sub-GTO launch as seems common, if the lunar team is prepared to pay for the upgrade to FH,and rideshare for example.
Clearly, other factors may make this practically impossible.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2018 07:28 pm by speedevil »

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #165 on: 12/01/2018 07:59 pm »
That's a good strategy in my opinion, produce one size of lander and scale up the launcher and its launch costs to suit the mission requirements.

Compare this to Moon Express, who are apparently doing exactly the opposite, building 5.6km/s into the MX-1, trapping that model at 30kg payload, and then building the MX-5 and MX-9 to up their payload numbers.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2018 08:01 pm by theinternetftw »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #166 on: 12/01/2018 08:45 pm »


That's a good strategy in my opinion, produce one size of lander and scale up the launcher and its launch costs to suit the mission requirements.

Compare this to Moon Express, who are apparently doing exactly the opposite, building 5.6km/s into the MX-1, trapping that model at 30kg payload, and then building the MX-5 and MX-9 to up their payload numbers.

MX-1 is really limited LauncherOne for landings with payload of any note. They have two options fly MX-1 and use LauncherOne extra performance to give it and extra boost or fly 2 stage MX2 to LEO.

Electron + MX1 is great option for low cost lunar orbit missions. Comms relay satellites in lunar orbit will be essential for making most of any landers and rovers.

Offline Markstark

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #169 on: 12/22/2018 06:12 am »
The Source Selection Statement has been released for CLPS.  PDF is attached.

The highlights:

* Ten companies responded to the RFP.  Nine winners.

* The rejected proposal was from Crow Industries.
* All the information about why proposals were accepted was inscrutable and mind-numbing.
* But the rejection info wasn't: they didn't buy how Crow would get an engine, and their mass numbers didn't add up.

* Past performance was not considered for acceptance into CLPS club.
* Price was not considered for acceptance into the club.
* Both past performance *and* price will be considered when offering task orders to the club members.
« Last Edit: 12/22/2018 06:16 am by theinternetftw »

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #170 on: 01/29/2019 07:44 am »
The official CLPS award notices were posted Monday, now that the government's been booted back up.  No surprises.

Next up is the NASA task order for delivering user guides, though I don't know if there'll be any public signs of that happening.

The example guide NASA said they'd provide to the contractors would be nice to have.

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #171 on: 02/05/2019 08:33 pm »
Cross-posting:

Post-shutdown, NASA has the release of the human lander tech BAA scheduled for February 7th.

The release of two reports on NASA's SMD lunar exploration plans is embargoed until the 7th at 11AM EST.  One report is on planetary science, one on commercial aspects.

Sounds like a lunar omnibus announcement could be coming Thursday morning.

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #172 on: 02/09/2019 03:06 am »
Another cross-post, this time with links to the reports:

Partnerships Between NASA and Industry Can Support Lunar Exploration, Say Two New Reports
February 7, 2019
Press Release

Links to download pages (can download as a guest, but will need to give email address)

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25373/report-series-committee-on-astrobiology-and-planetary-science-review-of

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25374/report-series-committee-on-astrobiology-and-planetary-science-review-of

Short version of the commercial report:

* A confirmation that CLPS falls under SMD's LDEP (Lunar Discovery and Exploration Program).  I.e. CLPS funding comes from LDEP funding (as does payload development funding).  LDEP request for 2019 is $216M.

* On the DALI payload development program, of the 71 potential payloads that applied, 47 have made it to Step 2.  These include:

   * Ultraviolet/visible/infrared/thermal/mass/Raman/neutron/gamma ray spectrometers
   * Dust/plasma/solar wind instruments
   * Seismic instruments, heat flow probe
   * Lunar laser ranging,
   * Magnetometers and radar;
   * Lidar, laser-induced breakdown spectroscopy, X-ray powder diffraction/fluorescence
   * Volatiles detection, radiation detection.

* The report worries that there's no common interface for those making CLPS payloads to work to.  They suggest designing one.

* A confirmation that task orders are expected to be firm-fixed price.

* The first task order was expected to have been released before the end of 2018.  It hasn't happened yet.

* NASA estimates CLPS pricing for payloads to be $1M/kg.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2019 05:44 am by theinternetftw »

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #173 on: 02/09/2019 05:32 am »
Quick addendum here.  Those reports above were written a few months ago, and thus things have happened since.  In an attempt to confirm some details on the DALI payload development program for CLPS, I discovered that the proposal selections had been made at the end of October.  Nigh silently, it seems.

Ten selections were made (twice the estimated number of five that was released with the solicitation).  The full release of selections is attached, but here are the highlights.  Each one of these projects will get $1M a year for 3-4 years, culminating in a launch date of "ideally" 2021.

University of Maryland, College Park: CRATER (Characterization of Regolith And Trace Economic Resources)
    * Proposed by Ricardo Arevalo (worked on MOMA-MS, a mass spec which will fly on ExoMars 2020)
    * Laser ablation mass spectrometer

University of Arizona: SLN (Seismometer for a Lunar Network)
    * Proposed by Samuel 'Hop' Bailey (currently working on seismometers for subsurface ocean worlds)
    * modification of a COTS optical seismometer 
    * Includes optionally burying the system to isolate it thermally via partnership with Honeybee Robotics

University of Maryland Baltimore County: LEMS (Lunar Environment Monitoring Station)
    * Proposed by Mehdi Benna (worked on Rosetta, LADEE, Curiosity's SAM)
    * Long-term (nominally 2 year) measurement of the exosphere via neutral mass spectrometer
    * Includes a low-power seismometer as well

NASA Ames: XTRA (eXTRAterrestrial Regolith Analyzer)
    * Proposed by David Blake (CheMin's Principal Investigator, see below)
    * X-ray powder diffraction/fluorescence, a la CheMin aboard Curiosity
    * Would obtain samples via a Honeybee Robotics-developed collection system

NASA Goddard: KArLE (Potassium-Argon Laser Experiment)
    * Proposed by Barbara Cohen (PI for the Lunar Flashlight EM-1 Cubesat, worked on MER, MSL)
    * In-situ sample dating (via Laser-Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy), plus mass spec and optical imager
    * Will require a lander/rover drill or sample handling system
    * Maturation intended for Discovery-class missions, but will look at commercial flights of "all or parts" of KArLE
    * Can detect the distant rhythmic thuds of foreheads hitting walls, will generate those thuds via its acronym

Jet Propulsion Laboratory: UCIS (Ultra-compact Imaging Spectrometer for the Lunar Surface)
    * Proposed by Abigail Fraeman (deputy scientist on MER (which she saw launch in high school), worked on MSL)
    * Extending detection range of a shortwave infrared imaging spectrometer to 3600nm to detect water and organics.
    * Extending the thermal regimen under which the spectrometer can operate to handle lunar environment extremes

University of Maryland, College Park: SSOLVE (Submillimeter Solar Observation Lunar Volatiles Experiment)
    * Proposed by Timothy Livengood (does ground-based atmospheric research of other planets / the moon)
    * Observe traces of water in the exosphere
    * Can work from orbiter or lander platforms (if an orbiter, could map emissions at all latitudes and local times)

NASA Goddard: BECA (Bulk Elemental Composition Analyzer)
    * Proposed by Ann Parsons (worked on the Swift spacecraft, built a gamma/neutron emission test facility at Goddard)
    * Will emit pulses of high-energy neutrons, returns are detected by gamma ray spectrometer and neutron detectors
    * Can detect the bulk elemental composition of 1m of regolith to a depth of 20cm
    * If on a rover, useful that a quick look takes 15 minutes, full measurements 2 hours

University of Colorado, Boulder: EDA (Electrostatic Dust Analyzer)
    * Proposed by Xu Wang (researches charged dust and plasma physics at CU Boulder)
    * Studies electrostatic dust transport by measuring the velocity, charge, and mass of lofted lunar dust.
    * Will characterize dust flux as function of local time, solar activity, and phase of lunar orbit

Jet Propulsion Laboratory: Lunar Super Low-Frequency Atomic Seismometer
    * Proposed by Nan Yu (supervisor for JPL's quantum science and technology group)
    * Utilizes the interference of atom waves, with atoms laser cooled to microKelvin temperatures without cryogenics
    * Long-period surface wave and normal mode measurements at sub-mHz range and tide measurements at sub-µHz
« Last Edit: 02/09/2019 06:10 am by theinternetftw »

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #174 on: 02/15/2019 04:58 pm »
Some CLPS timing updates from Dr. Z during the Human Lander System shenanigans yesterday:

* Still hoping (even now) for a first launch in 2019 for CLPS.
* The first task order will be released in a month.

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1096103660499755008

Edit: Linkified
« Last Edit: 02/15/2019 05:54 pm by theinternetftw »

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #175 on: 02/15/2019 11:02 pm »
Another Zurbuchen quote about CLPS from a Verge article: "“We have told everyone who’s in our catalog that we will incentivize speed, financially."

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #176 on: 02/16/2019 10:57 am »
Having found the long-term DALI payload development selections above, I also went on a hunt for more information about the "whatever you have on hand" payloads for the first few CLPS missions.  Those are being solicited under NASA's ROSES research program. It has the very catchy acronym of LSITP, which stands for Lunar Surface Instrument and Technology Payloads.  Info follows, including a nice hint as to realistic earliest launch dates for CLPS.

* Weight limit of 15 kg.
* Comm limit of 45 kb/s.
* Power limit of 8W, 25W peak.

* Due date for proposals is February 27th.
* Start of work is expected to be June 2019.
* Eight to twelve winners are expected to be selected.
* No NASA centers are allowed to apply (unlike DALI above, where multiple centers won awards)

* Payload operators should expect to deliver payload to CLPS providers "as early as March 2020"
* A handy timeline suggests that launch would be five months after delivery, so "as early" as August 2020.
* Each winner will get a maximum of $3M for payload prep, and $1M to $3M in funds for mission ops.
* First yearly budget is expected to be $24M to $36M.

Full solicitation is attached.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #177 on: 02/16/2019 10:19 pm »
If someone wants to test a dewar on the Moon for 6 months this is their chance. Maximum 15 kg including liquid instrumentation, solar panel and radio.
« Last Edit: 02/16/2019 11:02 pm by A_M_Swallow »

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #178 on: 02/16/2019 10:35 pm »
Attempting to do a bit of black magic here.  LDEP is the budgetary line item that both CLPS and its instrument development programs are under, and the accepted budgetary request for that was $218M.  The ROSES-based parts of LDEP share what they'll cost the first year, and according to the released budget, $21M is reserved for LRO operations, so we can subtract those out and get closer to what CLPS will get in funding for the first year.  So here's that:

LDEP starting funds: $218M (officially projected as this program's steady-state year-to-year budget)

LRO Operations: $21M
Apollo Sample Analysis: $3.5M
DALI (long term payload dev): $1M per award * 10 awards: $10M
LSITP (short term payload acquisition): Not yet awarded, max of $36M for the year

(missing: smallsat ridealongs, Resource Prospector instrument dev)

Ballpark figure for what's left for the first year of CLPS: $147.5M

Remember, NASA wants multiple launches a year.

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #179 on: 02/16/2019 11:08 pm »
If someone wants to test a dewar on the Moon for 6 months this is their chance. Maximum 15 kg including liquid instrumentation, solar panel and radio.

Dewars are useful because of the vacuum between the interior tank and the environment, right?  I'd think you'd need an atmosphere to protect yourself from.  It's a whole new world.

Also, surviving for 14 days at -170C is apparently so fraught that nobody is talking about doing that just yet.  It's in work (both with and without the use of RHUs/RTGs), but early CLPS landers plan to bite it when the sun goes down.
« Last Edit: 02/16/2019 11:15 pm by theinternetftw »

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