Author Topic: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)  (Read 182031 times)

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #120 on: 11/21/2018 02:20 am »
A_M_Swallow:

"The surface of the Moon is not a nice place - it has many rocks, boulders and crevices which caused the Apollo LEM landers problems. The BFS is too big to fit between many of these rocks. See the picture of the hazard area NASA built to test the Morpheus lander."

Sorry, but this is completely false.  No Apollo LM ever had a problem with these 'hazards', and any review of images of the landing sites will clearly show this.  It is true that you can find images of very rocky areas - the Camelot Crater rim at Apollo 17's site is a good example.  But you just don't aim for such a place.  And today we have on-board hazard avoidance (demonstrated on Chang'e 3, planned and tested by the new lander companies) so we don't even have to rely on a human pilot to avoid hazards.

The only landforms which threatened any Apollo landing were craters.  Apollo 15's LM landed on a crater slope and Apollo 16 narrowly missed one.  It was also craters which jeopardized two Surveyor landings (3 and 5) but both survived because of their stable design.  Plenty of other larger-scale slopes at sites from Apollo 14 on were simply avoided by targeting safer places.

Modern targeting and hazard avoidance completely negate this problem, as far as I am concerned.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #121 on: 11/21/2018 08:18 am »
{snip}
And today we have on-board hazard avoidance (demonstrated on Chang'e 3, planned and tested by the new lander companies) so we don't even have to rely on a human pilot to avoid hazards.

The Hazard Area shown was built to flight test on-board hazard avoidance equipment.

Craters and crevices - to the lander's leg both types of hole are a problem.

The bigger the lander gets the fewer the natural landing areas available.

Offline speedevil

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #122 on: 11/21/2018 05:12 pm »
{snip}
And today we have on-board hazard avoidance (demonstrated on Chang'e 3, planned and tested by the new lander companies) so we don't even have to rely on a human pilot to avoid hazards.

The Hazard Area shown was built to flight test on-board hazard avoidance equipment.

Craters and crevices - to the lander's leg both types of hole are a problem.

The bigger the lander gets the fewer the natural landing areas available.

The moon is globally imaged at some 2m/pixel, with 0.5m/pixel from selected sites, and imagery from Apollo and Lunakhod at somewhat higher resolution in very limited locations and tracks.

A LRO class camera could, over moderate portions of the moon get images down to 10cm, with skimming orbits, using the gravity models from LRO to aid in planning.
A 1m aperture telescope significantly less.

Note that these figures are misleading - you can find boulders much smaller than 0.5m/pixel in the images as their shadows are longer.
The moons lack of atmosphere and excellent mapping of the gravity field and surface elevation mean you can with little risk compute trajectories that let you verify pre-selected landing sites are suitable, without actually landing.
In addition, 'mobile phone' class cameras, as found on the Mars 2020 rover are quite suitable for verifying landing sites even closer up.
That last tenth of a second before impact is quite high resolution indeed.

Modest additions to even quite small landers can let you survey in even more depth than LROs best for your landing site.
If you have no atmosphere, are landing in 1/6G, and have 3d imagery that is better than the diameter of your footpads, this is a very different problem from a generic situation where you have to try to autoland on the moon with no knowledge.

This is pretty much true if your lander masses a kilo or a megaton.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #123 on: 11/23/2018 07:13 pm »
Story mainly on the ACSC "approaching-human-sized" lander, and their new three-stage plan for that:
https://spacenews.com/nasa-studying-three-stage-approach-to-human-class-lunar-landers/

But it drops in a bit at the end about a series of ~500kg mid-sized landers with a first launch in 2022.  And says that might get completed via an outgrowth from CLPS.

Notable here is it looks like this is a shift from the initial plans for a 2022 launch based on an internal Lunar Pallet Lander design that had been planned for Resource Prospector.  Instead, they're looking to give that work to commercial.  This keeps the 2022 launch from being a one-off lander unrelated to everything else save that it was also going to the moon.  Now it's a real part of the program.  Sounds like good news.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #124 on: 11/23/2018 09:35 pm »
An Eric Berger story on proposals for the Lunar Surface Instrument and Technology Payloads program being due:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/11/forget-big-rovers-one-company-envisions-a-swarm-of-tiny-lunar-prospectors/

There are two payload development programs.  There's this one that was mentioned in the article, which is for getting payloads *now*, so they can launch in 2019 (more likely 2020, but 2019 was the original plan).  Then there's DALI, which is a long-term payload development program for instruments expected to be ready in 2021.

One potential payload already has a flashy demonstration video (this from a company founded in 2017):

« Last Edit: 11/23/2018 09:36 pm by theinternetftw »

Offline Markstark

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #125 on: 11/27/2018 11:14 pm »
This is likely an announcement on CLPS contract awards. Can’t wait.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-administrator-to-announce-new-moon-to-mars-partnerships-with-us-companies/ NASA Administrator to Announce New Moon to Mars Partnerships - NASA

Offline Markstark

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #126 on: 11/27/2018 11:47 pm »
Also, the Masten retweet might be a hint at getting an award. I know it’s kind of stretch lol


Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #127 on: 11/28/2018 11:47 pm »
This is likely an announcement on CLPS contract awards. Can’t wait.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-administrator-to-announce-new-moon-to-mars-partnerships-with-us-companies/ NASA Administrator to Announce New Moon to Mars Partnerships - NASA

The CLPS awards were not due until the end of the year. Although this may be the start of CLPS#2 or possibly the start of Commercial Mars Payload Services (CMPS).

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #128 on: 11/29/2018 03:19 pm »
Some more background and leak(?) ahead of today's announcement:

http://www.businessinsider.com/nasa-return-moon-mission-commercial-companies-announcement-2018-11

Quote
Space-industry sources say the event will name 11 small companies that will be eligible to compete for millions of dollars in future NASA contracts.

Business Insider has independently confirmed that a company called Astrobotic Technology will be one of those 11 partners, but an Astrobotic employee said they can't reveal specifics until Thursday.


Offline ncb1397

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #129 on: 11/29/2018 04:25 pm »

The CLPS awards were not due until the end of the year.

It is the end of the year.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #130 on: 11/29/2018 05:24 pm »

The CLPS awards were not due until the end of the year.

It is the end of the year.


It is not the 31 December for another month. Something being a month a head of schedule is quite unusual.

p.s. The announcement was the CLPS contracts.
« Last Edit: 11/29/2018 06:46 pm by A_M_Swallow »

Offline PhotoEngineer

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #131 on: 11/29/2018 06:22 pm »
Masten Space Systems
Astrobotic
Lockheed Martin
Moon Express
Deep Space Systems
Firefly
Draper / iSpace
Intuitive Machines
Orbit Beyond

Offline woods170

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #132 on: 11/29/2018 06:36 pm »
No Blue Origin.
Hmmm....

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #133 on: 11/29/2018 07:03 pm »
The award-winners had to be ready to fly by the end of 2021, so missing entities may just not have been able to commit to that date.  No reflection on anything else.  And there will be other awards like this for later, larger  landers

Offline MarcPol

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #134 on: 11/29/2018 07:10 pm »
No Blue Origin.
Hmmm....

They noted these are only capability and services contracts- each company will be responsible for securing their own launch vehicle to actually get to the moon.  If Blue Origin, SpaceX, ULA, Arianespace, etc are all options to get to the moon for the commercial services providers, there will likely be a fair amount of competition to get the launch contracts.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #135 on: 11/29/2018 07:24 pm »
Quote
Nov. 29, 2018
RELEASE 18-105

NASA Announces New Partnerships for Commercial Lunar Payload Delivery Services

Nine U.S. companies now are eligible to bid on NASA delivery services to the lunar surface through Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) contracts, as one of the first steps toward long-term scientific study and human exploration of the Moon and eventually Mars.

These companies will be able to bid on delivering science and technology payloads for NASA, including payload integration and operations, launching from Earth and landing on the surface of the Moon. NASA expects to be one of many customers that will use these commercial landing services.

“Today’s announcement marks tangible progress in America’s return to the Moon’s surface to stay,” said NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine. “The innovation of America’s aerospace companies, wedded with our big goals in science and human exploration, are going to help us achieve amazing things on the Moon and feed forward to Mars.”

The selected companies are:

Astrobotic Technology, Inc.: Pittsburgh
Deep Space Systems: Littleton, Colorado
Draper: Cambridge, Massachusetts
Firefly Aerospace, Inc.: Cedar Park, Texas
Intuitive Machines, LLC: Houston
Lockheed Martin Space: Littleton, Colorado
Masten Space Systems, Inc.: Mojave, California
Moon Express: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Orbit Beyond: Edison, New Jersey
Image Gallery: Draft lander concepts from companies selected for the Commercial Lunar Payload Services program.

NASA’s Science Mission Directorate (SMD) initiated the request for proposals leading to these selections as the first step in achieving a variety of science and technology objectives that could be addressed by regularly sending instruments, experiments and other small payloads to the Moon. SMD serves as the NASA interface between the agency’s mission directorates, the scientific community, and other external stakeholders in developing a strategy to enable an integrated approach for robotic and human exploration within NASA’s Moon to Mars Exploration Campaign.

The Commercial Lunar Payload Services contracts are indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity contracts with a combined maximum contract value of $2.6 billion during the next 10 years. The agency will look at a number of factors when comparing the bids, such as technical feasibility, price and schedule.

Lunar payloads could fly on these contracted missions as early as 2019. In October, NASA issued a call for potential lunar instruments and technologies to study the Moon, with proposals due in January. These early missions will enable important technology demonstrations that will inform the development of future landers and other exploration systems needed for humans to return to the lunar surface, and help prepare the agency to send astronauts to explore Mars.

NASA will re-examine the private market periodically for new and emerging lunar delivery capabilities, and may offer additional companies an opportunity to join Commercial Lunar Payload Services through a contract process called on-ramping.

For more information about NASA’s Moon to Mars exploration plans, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/moontomars

-end-

Cheryl Warner / Steve Cole
Headquarters, Washington
202-358-1540 / 202-358-0918
[email protected]/ [email protected]

Jenny Knotts
Johnson Space Center, Houston
281-483-5111
[email protected]

Last Updated: Nov. 29, 2018
Editor: Sean Potter

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-announces-new-partnerships-for-commercial-lunar-payload-delivery-services

Offline envy887

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #136 on: 11/29/2018 07:30 pm »
No Blue Origin.
Hmmm....

They noted these are only capability and services contracts- each company will be responsible for securing their own launch vehicle to actually get to the moon.  If Blue Origin, SpaceX, ULA, Arianespace, etc are all options to get to the moon for the commercial services providers, there will likely be a fair amount of competition to get the launch contracts.

They have to use domestic launch vehicles and domestic spacecraft. Right now they can use SpaceX, ULA, NGIS, and RocketLab. Soon Virgin and Blue as well.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #137 on: 11/29/2018 07:36 pm »
Masten Space Systems
Astrobotic
Lockheed Martin
Moon Express
Deep Space Systems
Firefly
Draper / iSpace
Intuitive Machines
Orbit Beyond

One of these is not like the other. Why was an aerospace giant included?

Offline Kryten

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #138 on: 11/29/2018 07:58 pm »
Masten Space Systems
Astrobotic
Lockheed Martin
Moon Express
Deep Space Systems
Firefly
Draper / iSpace
Intuitive Machines
Orbit Beyond

One of these is not like the other. Why was an aerospace giant included?
They're the only company in the US that's actually built any kind of planetary lander since the 60s, they seem an obvious pick.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #139 on: 11/29/2018 08:10 pm »
Masten Space Systems
Astrobotic
Lockheed Martin
Moon Express
Deep Space Systems
Firefly
Draper / iSpace
Intuitive Machines
Orbit Beyond

One of these is not like the other. Why was an aerospace giant included?

I was thinking that Orbit Beyond was the odd man out. Can't find their website. Do they have one?

edit: Their address is listed as Edison, New Jersey. Sort of small town - population of about 100,000. Shouldn't be hard to find their office?

edit 2: Their one known employee, Jeff Patton (impressive resume btw), doesn't list Orbit Beyond on linkedIn and is listed as living in the Denver area. Anybody know if he still works at ULA and this is just a part time gig or what?
« Last Edit: 11/29/2018 08:39 pm by ncb1397 »

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