Author Topic: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?  (Read 16351 times)

Offline jabe

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #20 on: 02/19/2018 04:52 PM »
With announcement supposedly tomorrow.. I believe it is about http://www.bigelowspaceops.com/
i just hope it isn't another "here..come fund this..." but a "we are doing this...hop on board" announcement..
but I am skeptical
jb



Offline punder

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #21 on: 02/19/2018 06:11 PM »
Or  Bigelow could develop expandable modules to fit the existing fairing sizes.   

Exactly.

Offline JazzFan

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #22 on: 02/19/2018 10:44 PM »
>
Because Bigelow habs seemed to be designed with minimal propulsion meant mainly for station-keeping, they're seen primarily as suitable for space stations. Could they be used as manned deep space vessels, perhaps after some modifications? What kind of modifications would be required?

The most recent animations & the below article show a B330 with a refuellable ULA ACES stage as a propulsion bus.

http://spacenews.com/bigelow-and-ula-announce-plans-for-lunar-orbiting-facility/

I know it's just a drawing. However, the ACES doesn't appear to be simply refuelable unless going through the B330.  Wouldn't this require complex piping in the B330?  Also, wouldn't this make for even more complex than with refueling from Progress to ISS which is a direct interface and fuel transfer between vehicles?  It works on ISS, just thinking that the approach slaves design of the refueling vehicle to the design of the B330.

Online docmordrid

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #23 on: 02/19/2018 11:01 PM »
Distributed launch. Not sure if ACES could un-dock in LLO, refuel from an ACES tanker then return to B330.

ULA presser....

Quote
In LEO, all of the cryogenic propellant would be transferred to one of the Advanced Cryogenic Evolved Stage (ACES). The now full ACES would then rendezvous with the B330 and perform multiple maneuvers to deliver the B330 to its final position in Low Lunar Orbit.

« Last Edit: 02/19/2018 11:05 PM by docmordrid »
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Offline ejb749

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #24 on: 02/19/2018 11:02 PM »
With announcement supposedly tomorrow.. I believe it is about http://www.bigelowspaceops.com/
i just hope it isn't another "here..come fund this..." but a "we are doing this...hop on board" announcement..
but I am skeptical
jb

Here's a big clue...

"About us
Bigelow Space Operations (BSO) is the sales, space operations and customer service company for commercial space stations in low Earth orbit and beyond. BSO is a sister company to Bigelow Aerospace. "

https://www.linkedin.com/company/bigelowspaceops

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #25 on: 02/20/2018 01:38 AM »
Sounds like more of the “here... come fund this” stuff
John Hanzl. Author, action / adventure www.johnhanzl.com

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #26 on: 02/20/2018 02:05 AM »
The XBASE prototype B330 module is being developed under a NextSTEP Space Act Agreement (SAA). The SAA are for ground prototypes so they probably do not have launch contracts. COTS launch vehicles were developed using a series of 2 year SAA and NextSTEP appears to be managed in a similar fashion. Bigelow's initial SAA started in March 2015 so testable hardware should be appearing.

Online docmordrid

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #27 on: 02/20/2018 04:17 AM »
This is as close to a "contract" as I've seen: 2022ish to LLO on Vulcan. Sounds more like a hand-wave for the DSG.

ULA.....
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Offline jabe

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #28 on: 02/20/2018 09:19 PM »
ok..my 2 cents...
that was a boring announcement...launch the thing already ..tell the companies it is 1st come 1st serve..show up now or miss out...
seems they are looking for that handout again... sigh
jb

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #29 on: 02/21/2018 03:13 AM »
ok..my 2 cents...
that was a boring announcement...launch the thing already ..tell the companies it is 1st come 1st serve..show up now or miss out...
seems they are looking for that handout again... sigh
jb

It is not unusual for companies to need customers before launching something. (When Boeing formally launch the 787 they had firm orders for 102 aircraft) And launching a space station is a massive investment.

So this is not unusual, and has nothing to do with "looking for a handout". Doing the "build it and they will come" philosophy requires a lot of resources to back up, resources that Bigelow lacks all by themselves.

If you believe Bigelow will launch a space station without a signed customer (or customers), you are in fantasy land.
« Last Edit: 02/21/2018 03:16 AM by Lars-J »

Offline jabe

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #30 on: 02/21/2018 03:49 PM »

It is not unusual for companies to need customers before launching something. (When Boeing formally launch the 787 they had firm orders for 102 aircraft) And launching a space station is a massive investment.

So this is not unusual, and has nothing to do with "looking for a handout". Doing the "build it and they will come" philosophy requires a lot of resources to back up, resources that Bigelow lacks all by themselves.

If you believe Bigelow will launch a space station without a signed customer (or customers), you are in fantasy land.
I am, I guess, in a bit fantasy land but if they believe in the tech..which I think they should.. i think they need to push the tech more..which i was (naively?) hoping for this time.  Seems they were just announcing what they have been trying to do for years..to find someone to buy into it..
I hope they can find someone or some entity to be a tenant.  love to see it fly..
jb

Offline IRobot

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #31 on: 02/21/2018 03:54 PM »
It's too bad that a large interplanetary-class rocket like BFR (or New Armstrong, etc) can't be equipped with some kind of temporary Bigelow-style expanding hab section. Because then shortly after the rocket leaves the atmosphere, the hab section could expand outward to provide much more habitation space during transit to a far location like Mars. Then as it nears that destination, perhaps the hab could be re-compressed again, before the vehicle undergoes EDL. Then after landing, maybe the hab section could be expanded again, to provide a roomier space on Mars.

Because Bigelow habs seemed to be designed with minimal propulsion meant mainly for station-keeping, they're seen primarily as suitable for space stations. Could they be used as manned deep space vessels, perhaps after some modifications? What kind of modifications would be required?
That is only an issue if BFR is volume limited during transit. My personal guess is that it will be mass limited, due to large amount of food and water required for the transit, as well as heavy equipment.

Offline alexterrell

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #32 on: 02/22/2018 06:32 AM »
Since none of the big Bigelow modules have been built, the question is, how expensive is it to take the technology and build a customised Bigelow for a specific launcher?

The BA-2100 was designed for the SLS. How much work would it be to design AND BUILD a Bigelow module customised for Falcon Heavy or BFR?

The Falcon Heavy payload fairing appears to be about 130m^3 of volume. So in principle it should be volume limited only if the average density of the payload is approximately < 0.45.

SLS "pressurised volume" is given as 825m^3. Certainly more volume / mass than Falcon Heavy. It should be easy to put something like the BA-2100 into that, but it won't (or shouldn't) look exactly like the BA-2100.

In both cases, would you keep the upper stage attached, so it can be used as a booster or perhaps a volatiles store? Or perhaps something similar to the old Space Shuttle ET reuse proposals?

Offline speedevil

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #33 on: 02/27/2018 12:40 PM »
(edit)BFS "pressurised volume" is given as 825m^3. Certainly more volume / mass than Falcon Heavy. It should be easy to put something like the BA-2100 into that, but it won't (or shouldn't) look exactly like the BA-2100.

In both cases, would you keep the upper stage attached, so it can be used as a booster or perhaps a volatiles store? Or perhaps something similar to the old Space Shuttle ET reuse proposals?

BFS raises the rather awkward issue of pricing.

If BFS costs $200M, that sets an obvious floor on a space station at $250K/m^3, which seems to be moderately close to prices that have been implied for the BA-330. And - well - if you want, you can deorbit it at any time. (in LEO at least).

But, if you don't care about mass, or inflatability, or anything fancy, you can get shielded 300m^3 or so 6m internal diameter modules up for not much more than 3* launch cost of BFS, even without any on-orbit assembly.

Buy 6m aluminium inch thick tank, don't tell them it's for aerospace, pressurise to 150PSI a few times to test it, add 1m of plastic water tanks to the outside (empty), glue on aluminium foil, fill in orbit, and you've got a pressurised shielded volume that you can outfit at your leisure.

This is obviously not suitable for BLEO, as it's quite high mass, but in LEO, you don't actually care about that.

On other loads, you send up 10m*3m tubes, with various 'plumbing' type fittings, made from two inch thick aluminium to be on the safe side, and just attach the tanks using these.

Of course, this rather depends on what BFS actually charges for launch - and what the market is.
If SpaceX gets involved in orbital tourism, their only reason to not consider launches 'at cost' would be anticompetitive reasons.

If they actually manage to convince people to pay $150M per launch, then you very much want bigelow type habs.





Offline Nomadd

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #34 on: 02/27/2018 09:19 PM »
Or  Bigelow could develop expandable modules to fit the existing fairing sizes.   

Exactly.
New fairings don't just appear out of nowhere. The payload decides how big they'll be. The 2100 could be a starting point for SpaceX, BO or whoever wants to make a huge cargo fairing or whatever delivers the payload. Talk to other potential customers, of course.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #35 on: 02/27/2018 09:52 PM »
Or  Bigelow could develop expandable modules to fit the existing fairing sizes.   

Exactly.
New fairings don't just appear out of nowhere. The payload decides how big they'll be. The 2100 could be a starting point for SpaceX, BO or whoever wants to make a huge cargo fairing or whatever delivers the payload. Talk to other potential customers, of course.

The point is, though, that if you are having a hard time finding customers (as Bigelow clearly does), it doesn't hurt your chances by scaling your product to fit existing fairings better.

Being a launch customer (perhaps the *only* customer) for a custom fairing size is not going to be cheap.

Offline e of pi

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #36 on: 02/28/2018 03:50 PM »
New fairings don't just appear out of nowhere. The payload decides how big they'll be. The 2100 could be a starting point for SpaceX, BO or whoever wants to make a huge cargo fairing or whatever delivers the payload. Talk to other potential customers, of course.
The point is, though, that if you are having a hard time finding customers (as Bigelow clearly does), it doesn't hurt your chances by scaling your product to fit existing fairings better.

Being a launch customer (perhaps the *only* customer) for a custom fairing size is not going to be cheap.
And thus, as you say, it would help to design a module that fits within the volumetric envelope of as many existing rockets as possible (that can lift the required mass), rather than designing a module to use as much mas as possible but which requires a custom fairing, then having to pay for the fairing development all by yourself--or demanding that Rocket Brand Y design that fairing on spec if they want your customers (all however many space station buyers Bigelow has beating down his door?) to buy launches on their rocket.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #37 on: 02/28/2018 04:23 PM »
 The case for the 330 isn't simple. There's no way they'll redesign it for the existing Falcon fairing, and the ULA ride would cost $60 million more. If SpaceX does decide to extend theirs, I'd think Bigelow would want to be in on the conversation. As for the 2100, nothing can launch that yet, so a serious attempt to develop it would definitely be a factor in sizing the payload delivery whatever for the BFR or NG. It's a real COTE problem.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #38 on: 02/28/2018 06:49 PM »
The case for the 330 isn't simple. There's no way they'll redesign it for the existing Falcon fairing, and the ULA ride would cost $60 million more. If SpaceX does decide to extend theirs, I'd think Bigelow would want to be in on the conversation. As for the 2100, nothing can launch that yet, so a serious attempt to develop it would definitely be a factor in sizing the payload delivery whatever for the BFR or NG. It's a real COTE problem.

You speak of the 330 as if it exists, or is anywhere close to being at a CDR. It is not. So they could scale it slightly and not throw away all their work. That's all I'm saying.

Offline alexterrell

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Re: Bigelow Habs - How Big Will They Go? Where Will They Go?
« Reply #39 on: 03/01/2018 11:53 PM »
Or  Bigelow could develop expandable modules to fit the existing fairing sizes.   

Exactly.
New fairings don't just appear out of nowhere. The payload decides how big they'll be. The 2100 could be a starting point for SpaceX, BO or whoever wants to make a huge cargo fairing or whatever delivers the payload. Talk to other potential customers, of course.
In the case of Falcon 9, the rocket diameter also imposes some limit on the fairing diameter, which is important for Bigelow modules.

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