Only 4 more flights??

• Only 4 more flights?? by gordo on 21 Sep, 2006 21:11
• Could Atlantis be certified for a standby flight after her current scheduled retirement date if another tech issue came up on Discovery or Endeavour?  
  
  In aviation, airliners are normally granted specific exceptions for extra flights by the CAA/FAA etc if a 12,000hr Major check is due subject to certain conditions being met.
  
  Does anyone know if any work is being put into a plan that would allow Atlantis an extra flight if needed?  She's not the oldest orbiter so would not breaking any new ground with an extra flight.
• #1 by Flightstar on 21 Sep, 2006 21:24
• It's not about age, it's about her then being due for her Major Modification Period. Has to be the case.
• #2 by gordo on 21 Sep, 2006 21:34
• Was not talking about age, more that would the fact that "they had been there before" with Discovery and Columbia they would be able too look at a one filght exemption before the OMDP that is not going to happen.
  
  In the UK we did this with Concorde; one of the aircraft was due a 6 month major check when it was announced they were retiring, with an extended small check the CAA granted the aircraft another 20 flights.
  
  So was simply wondering if the management were looking into this?
• #3 by MKremer on 21 Sep, 2006 21:54
• Re-certifying a Shuttle orbiter for even a short extension would be almost an order of magnitude more complex, time-consuming, and costly than an aircraft (even like a Concorde), not to mention raising the flight risks. Probably not quite as extensive as an MMP, but almost. It just wouldn't be worth it both to NASA and U.S. taxpayers to do that.
  
• #4 by c.steven on 21 Sep, 2006 22:08
• I'm guessing the other issue here is the availability of parts and components toward the end of the program. Most of the original parts are no longer produced, and the number of spares is probably dwindling in some cases. Am I wrong in assuming Atlantis will be canibalized, if necessary, to keep the other birds flying?
• #5 by Chris Bergin on 21 Sep, 2006 22:10
• Atlantis will provide some specialised parts for her sisters, but you won't be able to tell from the outside. Not like they'll take her wings off etc.
• #6 by MKremer on 21 Sep, 2006 22:11
• Quote

  Am I wrong in assuming Atlantis will be canibalized, if necessary, to keep the other birds flying?

  I'd bet it will be, if needed.
  
• #7 by gordo on 21 Sep, 2006 22:20
• It sounds like they are all cannibalised to some extent when in the OFP for parts use on other orbiters.
  
  It hope that when they finally send her to a museum she 100% complete, even with time expired parts, so all 3 are historically accurate
• #8 by Chris Bergin on 21 Sep, 2006 22:38
• Quote

  gordo - 21/9/2006  11:03 PM
  
  It sounds like they are all cannibalised to some extent when in the OFP for parts use on other orbiters.
  
  It hope that when they finally send her to a museum she 100% complete, even with time expired parts, so all 3 are historically accurate

  
  I agree, and as you mention, some lessons have been learned from Concorde, as well as some bloody rediculous mistakes (when it comes to Concorde).
  
  It's not just for the vehicles, it's for those that have worked on them and the public that got so much out of what they did.
• #9 by gordo on 21 Sep, 2006 22:46
• I know we're going off topic, but in the 90s a NASA team visited BA at LHR to get an inside into operating a small obsolete fleet.
  
  Not too sure what ridiculous mistakes were made on Concorde, of course the pairs crash was not Concorde's fault, much the same as Columbia or Challenger were not the orbiters faults.
  
  All in all they are very similar in operation and public pride.
• #10 by Radioheaded on 21 Sep, 2006 22:49
• Let me ask this from a different perspective.  If (God forbid) Atlantis was required for a LON mission (I'm assuming she is scheduled for LON status at some point in the future) what would become of her remaining missions? Would they simply postpone the flight, and use another orbiter? Sorry if this is sort of a simplistic question, I was just curious about this. (Hopefully soon, after my wife and I move to Orlando, (can't wait!!!! I won't miss a launch ) will have some spare $ to join L2, where this question may have already been answered.)  
  
  
   James
• #11 by Chris Bergin on 21 Sep, 2006 22:57
• Quote

  Radioheaded - 21/9/2006  11:32 PM
  
  Let me ask this from a different perspective.  If (God forbid) Atlantis was required for a LON mission (I'm assuming she is scheduled for LON status at some point in the future) what would become of her remaining missions? Would they simply postpone the flight, and use another orbiter? Sorry if this is sort of a simplistic question, I was just curious about this. (Hopefully soon, after my wife and I move to Orlando, (can't wait!!!! I won't miss a launch ) will have some spare $ to join L2, where this question may have already been answered.)  
  
  
   James

  
  It wouldn't matter. A LON situation would end the Shuttle Program.
• #12 by Chris Bergin on 21 Sep, 2006 22:58
• Quote

  gordo - 21/9/2006  11:29 PM
  
  Not too sure what ridiculous mistakes were made on Concorde.

  
  Refusal to sell to Virgin. The mess of where the remaining planes would be kept. Things like that.
• #13 by Radioheaded on 21 Sep, 2006 23:06
• Ah, very true. I never considered that reality.  Thanks Chris.
• #14 by Mark Dave on 21 Sep, 2006 23:15
• Yeah, sad to see Atlantis retire in two years.
  
  You are all correct o nthe issues here, parts available, and as one CNN documentary said most of the stuff is not made anymore, all old 1970s technology. Still, the shuttle is still flying. Why did they pick Atlantis to end flying early than her sisters? IMO Discovery should instead as she had the most flight time out of the whole fleet.
• #15 by DaveS on 21 Sep, 2006 23:23
• Quote

  MarkD - 22/9/2006  12:58 AM
  
  Yeah, sad to see Atlantis retire in two years.
  
  You are all correct o nthe issues here, parts available, and as one CNN documentary said most of the stuff is not made anymore, all old 1970s technology. Still, the shuttle is still flying. Why did they pick Atlantis to end flying early than her sisters? IMO Discovery should instead as she had the most flight time out of the whole fleet.

  Atlantis is due for a Orbiter Major Modification period in 2008. An OMM takes 2 years and is very expensive.
  
  Discovery's last OMM was completed just in time to begin mission processing for STS-114.
  
  When Endeavour launches on the STS-118 mission, she will be fresh out of her OMM.
  So you see that Atlantis is the oldest in terms of number of flights since last OMM.
  
  So the retirement sequence follows the order in which the orbiters completed their OMMs.
• #16 by Jim on 21 Sep, 2006 23:42
• Quote

  gordo - 21/9/2006  5:17 PM
  
  Was not talking about age, more that would the fact that "they had been there before" with Discovery and Columbia they would be able too look at a one filght exemption before the OMDP that is not going to happen.
  

  
  It is age.  That is the reason for the OMDP
• #17 by gordo on 22 Sep, 2006 00:08
• Still really nobody is getting towards answering the question; is any research being done to work out what would be required to allow Atlantis another flight, be it an mini OMDP/extended checkout.  Better to know in advance that its a non starter due to x,y,z, or possible as long as a,b and c are done.
  
  We could have an issue on one of the other 2 orbiters that kicks it out of the programme for 6 months as has happened in the past that could lead to 2010 being missed.
• #18 by Jim on 22 Sep, 2006 00:13
• It will not fly!!!  No way around it.   the other two will have to carry the load.  If an issue grounds one orbiter, the others one are grounded too
• #19 by Jeff Bingham on 22 Sep, 2006 04:00
• Actually, Jim, the Congress has established by law passed last year that it is the policy of the US to have uninterrupted spaceflight capability (PL 109-155), and requires that NASA notify the Congress of any anticipated gap in that capability and what is intended to be done to address that gap. As part of the process, NASA must report in a transition plan what steps would be required at what point in time to ensure that the infrastructure, parts, etc., would be available to support extended flight operations of the space shuttle.
  
  The reason NASA plans to retire Atlantis in 2008 is because they are operating under a presidential mandate to cease flying the space shuttle at the end of 2010, and since its OMDP would not be completed until then it would make no sense to go to the cost of putting it through that process, only to be retired as it came out the door...a VERY expensive museum piece! But things could change to modify that 2010 fixed date. (For example, the same presidential mandate that sets the 2010 retirement date--the Vision for Exploration--also requires the completion of the ISS. Only the shuttle can do that job, and if that job cannot be done by 2010, the shuttles need to be able to fly until that job is done.) That still doesn't mean that Atlantis couldn't be retired as planned and still extend shuttle flights beyond 2010; that depends on how Disocvery and Endeavor fare in subsequent missions.
  
  My point is, that the Congress is watching VERY closely the progress in completion of the ISS--which it has designated as a National Laboratory (the US Segment) and is committed to ensure it is completed to the point it can serve as a viable laboratory for work beyond that which NASA needs for its VSE research requirements. That is why that same law also requires that NASA allocate at least 15% of its total ISS research budget to research that is NOT focused solely on supporting VSE research requirements.
  
  The key to keeping the "surge" or "extension" capability alive is money; to that end, the Senate appropriations committee has added another billion dollars to the NASA funding line to compensate NASA, in part, for costs it has absorbed over the past three years in Return to Flight costs--and will be looking to add an additional $1.4 billion for that purpose over the next two years.
  
  In addition, bipartisan legislation is being introduced next week in the Senate that would require that NASA be a participant in the American Competitiveness Initiative, making use of up to an additional $1.4 billion already authorized by PL 109-155 for FY 2008, and the expectation that an equal amount--or more--will be authorized and appropriated for those purposes in subsequent years up to 2012. With those kinds of resources, NASA would be better positioned to accelerate developments in the CEV/CLV/Orion projects, expand funding levels for the Commercial Orbital Space Transportation System (COTS) program to assist in building private sector crew and cargo supply capabilities for ISS, AND maintain sufficient reserves, parts, and "keep warm" requirements to refurbish Atlantis, if necessary. None of that is guaranteed, but ALL of it is "possible."