Author Topic: SpaceX FH : Falcon Heavy Demo : Feb 6, 2018 : Discussion Thread 2  (Read 598007 times)

Offline Cabbage123

  • Member
  • Posts: 63
  • London
  • Liked: 57
  • Likes Given: 9
I'm sure this must have been discussed elsewhere but I haven't been able to track it down.

Do we have a clear picture of why the final burn put the orbit further out? Was this an intentional decision, or a mistake?

If intentional, was it perhaps to demonstrate the extra ∆v available?

If it was a mistake, is it of much significance, either technically, or in terms of future customer perception?

It seems to have been reported in a lot of mainstream press as a mistake.

Offline Nehkara

I'm sure this must have been discussed elsewhere but I haven't been able to track it down.

Do we have a clear picture of why the final burn put the orbit further out? Was this an intentional decision, or a mistake?

If intentional, was it perhaps to demonstrate the extra ∆v available?

If it was a mistake, is it of much significance, either technically, or in terms of future customer perception?

It seems to have been reported in a lot of mainstream press as a mistake.

Ironically, it didn't really.  Elon's tweet was incorrect.  There has been a bunch of work today to figure out the orbit and it looks like he just had a typo when creating the image he sent out.

This is roughly the correct orbit (more precise orbits will likely be released in the coming days):



Roadster is in green.

It will cross Mars' orbit distance in July.

---

That said, from my understanding they were never aiming for a specific orbit.  They were just burning until depletion in the direction of the orbit of Mars.  So, regardless of where it ended up they didn't mess up.

« Last Edit: 02/08/2018 09:39 pm by Nehkara »

Offline OxCartMark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1841
  • Former barge watcher now into water towers
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 2075
  • Likes Given: 1573
The sound you hear is (as someone pointed out previously but was ignored) is the sound you hear when you make a loud sound near corrugated siding.  I've got some that I walk by occasionally and I clap my hands to hear it.  And the two locations we're talking about both have corrugated siding.  The video where this was first brought up might not have shown the siding but there was another from the same location that was posted a page or so back in which the camera was turned around to show the corrugatedly sided building.  And the other one shot in the shadow of the VAB as the title says has corrugated siding on the doors.  Doors doesn't sound like much but they're yuge doors.

So why the 'piv' sound?  Delving into semi-educated guessing with some hand waving... The scenario in my mind is the sound passing you and hitting the corrugated wall at perhaps 45 degrees and bouncing back to you.  Each of the corrugs (for lack of a better term) reflects at different timing.  But there are certain combinations of frequencies and corrugation positions whose reflections interfere with each other constructively or at alternate times interfere destructively, making the reflections of certain frequencies louder at times.  But with a line of equally spaced corrugs the angles involved vary for different positions.  So at one point you may have three side by side corrugs whose audio reflections interfere constructively but a moment later as the forcing frequency changes a bit it may not be those three but maybe two of them and the next one in line.  As the forcing frequency continues to shift so does the location of the group of corrugs that interfere constructively so the location that the reflected sound is coming from runs down the wall.  And since the corrugation spacing is fixed and the range of apparent spacings between the corrugs is limited by the length of the wall and pertinent geometries the range of frequencies that this phenomenon will happen at is limited.

edit: Kinda makes me want to go out to my wall with a frequency generator & speaker and see how it plays.  Or at least one of those toy whistles with a variable piston plunger.  Don't hold your breath for results - 5-8 inches of snow predicted tonight, this can wait for summer.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2018 12:46 am by OxCartMark »
Actulus Ferociter!

Offline Nehkara

I didn't find this information anywhere: Did the roadster separate from the second stage or is it still attached?

AFAIK, I'm not sure there is definitive information but consensus is almost certainly they remain attached.  No reason to separate.

Confirmation (or as close as I've seen so far) that the 2nd stage remains attached:

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/961709147229229059

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12102
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7499
  • Likes Given: 3809
It seems to have been reported in a lot of mainstream press as a mistake.

Those in the MSM that are saying this are most likely the same ones that thought the roadster was going to orbit Mars. They thought this because somebody else who hadn't researched it told them that. Reporters used to do their own research and made sure they understood their source material before publishing it. Not so much anymore. Most of what I've seen have been simple repeats of what some other reporter said or some other wire service reported. Doesn't matter whether it's stocks, technology, politics, medical or international. Journalistic laziness has become the norm. That's one of the reasons I like this site so much. Not just because it's about space, rockets and astronauts, but because of the high standards that are set for its journalistic excellence.  Before any of the writers submit their stories for publishing, they do their own research, talk directly to multiple sources, and their stories are checked, crosscheck and verified. This is how it used to be in the MSM. Not so much anymore.

You can trust what you read on this site. Not so much what anyone else writes, unless they are parroting this site, which happens a lot.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline OxCartMark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1841
  • Former barge watcher now into water towers
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 2075
  • Likes Given: 1573
Actulus Ferociter!

Offline OxCartMark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1841
  • Former barge watcher now into water towers
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 2075
  • Likes Given: 1573
It seems to have been reported in a lot of mainstream press as a mistake.

Those in the MSM that are saying this are most likely the same ones that thought the roadster was going to orbit Mars. They thought this because somebody else who hadn't researched it told them that. Reporters used to do their own research and made sure they understood their source material before publishing it. Not so much anymore. Most of what I've seen have been simple repeats of what some other reporter said or some other wire service reported. Doesn't matter whether it's stocks, technology, politics, medical or international. Journalistic laziness has become the norm. That's one of the reasons I like this site so much. Not just because it's about space, rockets and astronauts, but because of the high standards that are set for its journalistic excellence.  Before any of the writers submit their stories for publishing, they do their own research, talk directly to multiple sources, and their stories are checked, crosscheck and verified. This is how it used to be in the MSM. Not so much anymore.

You can trust what you read on this site. Not so much what anyone else writes, unless they are parroting this site, which happens a lot.

Your opinion of the factual correctness of mainstream journalism is the same as mine but I differ with you on when it started.   I lost faith in their ability to or interest in reporting technical facts accurately as I read various obviously incorrect reports of what was happening in the Apollo program.  That has negatively shaded my views of the newspapers' ability or willingness to do their important part in our democracy ever since.
Actulus Ferociter!

Offline John Alan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 958
  • Central IL - USA - Earth
    • Home of the ThreadRipper Cadillac
  • Liked: 721
  • Likes Given: 2735
I found this mildly interesting...  ???
Source
https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/china-has-mixed-feelings-about-elon-musks-falcon-heavy-success/
Snip
Quote
Soon after two of Falcon Heavy’s booster rockets landed safely on the launch pad, news reports with photos and video footage swept Tencent Wechat and Sina Weibo — two of China’s most important social media platforms. Thousands of Chinese netizens reposted the information on their own social media accounts and applauded Musk’s great achievement.
The article goes to detail what the official news orgs in China said or didn't say...
One made a big deal out of the Core missing the ASDS...  ::)
« Last Edit: 02/08/2018 10:31 pm by John Alan »

Offline CameronD

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2429
  • Melbourne, Australia
    • Norton Consultants
  • Liked: 902
  • Likes Given: 564
I found this mildly interesting...  ???
Source
https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/china-has-mixed-feelings-about-elon-musks-falcon-heavy-success/
Snip
Quote
Soon after two of Falcon Heavy’s booster rockets landed safely on the launch pad, news reports with photos and video footage swept Tencent Wechat and Sina Weibo — two of China’s most important social media platforms. Thousands of Chinese netizens reposted the information on their own social media accounts and applauded Musk’s great achievement.
The article goes to detail what the official news orgs in China said or didn't say...
One made a big deal out of the Core missing the ASDS...  ::)

Maybe the grid fins were made in China. :P ;D

(That was a joke, ok? With reference to Elon's comments in the post-flight presser)
« Last Edit: 02/08/2018 10:57 pm by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline John Alan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 958
  • Central IL - USA - Earth
    • Home of the ThreadRipper Cadillac
  • Liked: 721
  • Likes Given: 2735
Found this mildly interesting also...  ???
Source...
http://napavalleyregister.com/opinion/editorial/commentary-how-elon-musk-beat-russia-s-space-program/article_4d05bad9-bc01-542f-a36e-3e88527b0c30.html
Snip...
Quote
...Egorov probably put his finger on the difference. The private passion of a socially clumsy, irritating, science fiction-reading, electric roadster-driving geek has done more to establish SpaceX's leadership than any state support could have done. The dream behind the engineering and the enterprise may not look as serious as the state considerations of Rogozin and Komarov -- but it sure helps propel some heavy objects into space.
Note - Vitaly Egorov, spokesman for Dauria Aerospace, a private Russian satellite manufacturer that works with Roskosmos...
« Last Edit: 02/08/2018 11:32 pm by John Alan »

Online rocketguy101

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 869
    • Strib's Rocket Page
  • Liked: 247
  • Likes Given: 903
Using the new footage in the launch video, I went frame-by-frame to capture the fairing separation...I thought it was pretty cool!
David

Offline OxCartMark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1841
  • Former barge watcher now into water towers
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 2075
  • Likes Given: 1573
Using the new footage in the launch video, I went frame-by-frame to capture the fairing separation...I thought it was pretty cool!
The clock ticks off 1 second of time in those 5 frames.  There's no telling whether its really .01 seconds or nearly 2 seconds but I'm going to go with 1 second.  In that time the Tesla Roadster accelerates from 10,188kph to 10,218kph, an increase of 30kph, 18 mph.  Assuming the acceleration is linear (traction limited, not power limited) that Roadster would make 60 mph in 3.33 seconds.  Wikipedia quotes Road & Track magazine as having tested "3.9 seconds for the Standard model and 3.7 seconds for the 2010 V2.5 Sport".  I congratulate myself for being so close to the actual performance using such an indirect method. ::)
Actulus Ferociter!

Offline docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6351
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 4223
  • Likes Given: 2
Lori Garver editorial in The Hill (Capitol Hill political newspaper/site). She really gets it, and says NASA refused a free ride on FH.

The Hill....

Edit/Lar: Separate thread for this at: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44917

« Last Edit: 02/09/2018 05:27 am by Lar »
DM

Online Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39463
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 33125
  • Likes Given: 8907
The side camera mount continuously appears and disappears as the lighting changes.

No photoshop necessary.

Here's your image enhanced. Even though the mounts are in shadow, we can still see them. Quite different to the blob we see in the final image. Also attached is a capture closer to the final capture in where the shadows are. We can clearly see the mounts.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2018 04:24 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39463
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 33125
  • Likes Given: 8907
Lori Garver editorial in The Hill (Capitol Hill political newspaper/site). She really gets it, and says NASA refused a free ride on FH.

Quoting what Lori said

"SpaceX offered NASA the opportunity to get a free ride on this first launch."

What would NASA have flown? Certainly not an expensive space probe as the first flight of FH would have been too risky.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14669
  • N. California
  • Liked: 14676
  • Likes Given: 1420
The side camera mount continuously appears and disappears as the lighting changes.

No photoshop necessary.

Here's your image enhanced. Even though the mounts are in shadow, we can still see them. Quite different to the blob we see in the final image. Also attached is a capture closer to the final capture in where the shadows are. We can clearly see the mounts.
Yup.  But I grabbed a random image from much nearer the Earth.

And read carefully what I wrote.  "No Photoshop necessary".

Meaning, for all practical purposes, that mount was invisible during many minutes, except for when you dig it out with a bunch of Photoshop.

So the image they released is bang on.  It shows what it looked like.

Now y'all need to find something else to be upset at. There's (literally) nothing to see here.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2018 05:39 am by meekGee »
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12419
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 10147
  • Likes Given: 8485
Lori Garver editorial in The Hill (Capitol Hill political newspaper/site). She really gets it, and says NASA refused a free ride on FH.

Quoting what Lori said

"SpaceX offered NASA the opportunity to get a free ride on this first launch."

What would NASA have flown? Certainly not an expensive space probe as the first flight of FH would have been too risky.

Guys, this is discussed in this thread...  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44917.0
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...I don't create this stuff, I just report it.

Offline Patchouli

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4490
  • Liked: 254
  • Likes Given: 457
Lori Garver editorial in The Hill (Capitol Hill political newspaper/site). She really gets it, and says NASA refused a free ride on FH.

Quoting what Lori said

"SpaceX offered NASA the opportunity to get a free ride on this first launch."

What would NASA have flown? Certainly not an expensive space probe as the first flight of FH would have been too risky.

I think an Orion with a full LAS would have been low risk in that even a failure would produce useful flight test data and you'd probably get the most expensive part back.
If it blows up you get an abort test if it works you get to send Orion on a test flight around the Moon well if FH was flown in expendable mode.
Though you might be able to get a lunar free return expending just the core and using the Orion SM to perform part of the TLI burn.

But this would have eaten up all the payload and I'm not even sure if FH's payload adapter can handle a payload that heavy.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2018 04:59 am by Patchouli »

Online Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39463
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 33125
  • Likes Given: 8907
I think an Orion with a full LAS would have been low risk in that even a failure would produce useful flight test data and you'd probably get the most expensive part back.
If it blows up you get an abort test if it works you get to send Orion on a test flight around the Moon well if FH was flown in expendable mode.
Though you might be able to get a lunar free return expending just the core and using the Orion SM to perform part of the TLI burn.

But this would have eaten up all the payload and I'm not even sure if FH's payload adapter can handle a payload that heavy.

Other problems are that the fairing is not tested on FH, a USAF requirement apparently. Also, a reusable FH could not send the 20 t Orion to the Moon. I would imagine NASA would also require vertical access when Orion is on the pad. That would require a lot of new structure to be built to do that (either for the LUT or a separate structure).
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Coastal Ron

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8967
  • I live... along the coast
  • Liked: 10330
  • Likes Given: 12053
I think an Orion with a full LAS would have been low risk in that even a failure would produce useful flight test data and you'd probably get the most expensive part back.
If it blows up you get an abort test if it works you get to send Orion on a test flight around the Moon well if FH was flown in expendable mode.
Though you might be able to get a lunar free return expending just the core and using the Orion SM to perform part of the TLI burn.

Orion spacecraft hardware is not just laying around, every piece has been ordered or built for a specific schedule requirement that ultimately supports their EM-1 and EM-2 flights. And as it is the Orion for the EM-1 mission is nowhere close to being ready to fly, so it would not have made sense to fly one on the Falcon Heavy.

I would imagine that NASA looked around their technology cupboard and didn't find anything that would have made sense to spend time and money on, and that could be blown up without anyone caring.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0