Author Topic: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth  (Read 15140 times)

Online Lars-J

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #40 on: 01/04/2018 06:34 PM »
The IIP trace can be "easily" steered to fly over sparsely populated areas of west/central Cuba and western Panama.  The dwell time is not long.  Location of jettisoned items like SRBs, stages, and PLF can also be controlled by lofting and/or timing of dogleg maneuver.

All true, but there is a reason why such an early ascent flyovers over other nations are a thorny issue, and thus generally avoided.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #41 on: 01/04/2018 07:57 PM »
The IIP trace can be "easily" steered to fly over sparsely populated areas of west/central Cuba and western Panama.  The dwell time is not long.  Location of jettisoned items like SRBs, stages, and PLF can also be controlled by lofting and/or timing of dogleg maneuver.

All true, but there is a reason why such an early ascent flyovers over other nations are a thorny issue, and thus generally avoided.
Perhaps current attitude is different, as in ... to intentionally antagonize?

Where this is seen as "encouraged to take advantage of", as an opportunity, rather than to be avoided?

Because things aren't "bad enough" yet? To matter?

"Hmm. Step on it and see if it's really all that bad. Can't blow my foot off anyways ... right?"

Offline deruch

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #42 on: 01/04/2018 10:39 PM »
It flies over the center of Cuba and might require briefly shutting down Miami, Ft Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach Airports.

It also overflies a crap ton of shipping going into and out of the Ports of Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, plus the Florida Current/Gulf Stream is also right down there.  Lots of shipping uses that for a minor speed advantage.  Dealing with the maritime hazard clearing may be a much, much bigger challenge than the air-lanes.  And maybe even harder than dealing with overflying Cuba.  Relations with them had been a bit warmer with Fidel no longer healthy (now dead) and President Obama in the White House.  Not sure if that's still the case given the new tenant. 
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #43 on: 01/04/2018 10:41 PM »
An article that talks about how FTS enables this new launch route:

Elon Musk's SpaceX has a new advantage: Blowing up its own rocket, automatically — Quartz

Quote
SpaceX, however, pursuing cheaper and more efficient launches, worked with the Air Force to turn over that duty to a GPS-equipped on-board computer, an “Automatic Flight Safety System” that debuted in 2017. ...

No other US rocket has this capability yet, and it could open up new advantages for SpaceX: The US Air Force is considering launches to polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, but the flight path is only viable if the rockets don’t need to be tracked for range-safety reasons. That means SpaceX is the only company that could take advantage of the new corridor to space.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Online Lars-J

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #44 on: 01/04/2018 10:49 PM »
An article that talks about how FTS enables this new launch route:

Elon Musk's SpaceX has a new advantage: Blowing up its own rocket, automatically — Quartz

Quote
SpaceX, however, pursuing cheaper and more efficient launches, worked with the Air Force to turn over that duty to a GPS-equipped on-board computer, an “Automatic Flight Safety System” that debuted in 2017. ...

No other US rocket has this capability yet, and it could open up new advantages for SpaceX: The US Air Force is considering launches to polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, but the flight path is only viable if the rockets don’t need to be tracked for range-safety reasons. That means SpaceX is the only company that could take advantage of the new corridor to space.

It won't help SpaceX much... They already have a VAFB pad, which they need to use since both FL pads will be busy with regular traffic. I agree with others that this is likely being pushed more by Blue Origin and NorthropGrummanOrbitalATK (either by them or on behalf of them), since they wouldn't have to invest in west coast pads.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2018 10:51 PM by Lars-J »

Online IanThePineapple

An article that talks about how FTS enables this new launch route:

Elon Musk's SpaceX has a new advantage: Blowing up its own rocket, automatically — Quartz

Quote
SpaceX, however, pursuing cheaper and more efficient launches, worked with the Air Force to turn over that duty to a GPS-equipped on-board computer, an “Automatic Flight Safety System” that debuted in 2017. ...

No other US rocket has this capability yet, and it could open up new advantages for SpaceX: The US Air Force is considering launches to polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, but the flight path is only viable if the rockets don’t need to be tracked for range-safety reasons. That means SpaceX is the only company that could take advantage of the new corridor to space.

It won't help SpaceX much... They already have a VAFB pad, which they need to use since both FL pads will be busy with regular traffic. I agree with others that this is likely being pushed more by Blue Origin and NorthropGrummanOrbitalATK (either by them or on behalf of them), since they wouldn't have to invest in west coast pads.

Delta IV's VAFB pad will be offline in about 5 years or less, which would be great for NG. Delta II's pad will be offline in less than a year, and NGL might be able to use that.

Offline Newton_V

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #46 on: 01/05/2018 12:13 AM »
The IIP trace can be "easily" steered to fly over sparsely populated areas of west/central Cuba and western Panama.  The dwell time is not long.  Location of jettisoned items like SRBs, stages, and PLF can also be controlled by lofting and/or timing of dogleg maneuver.

All true, but there is a reason why such an early ascent flyovers over other nations are a thorny issue, and thus generally avoided.
Perhaps current attitude is different, as in ... to intentionally antagonize?

Where this is seen as "encouraged to take advantage of", as an opportunity, rather than to be avoided?

Because things aren't "bad enough" yet? To matter?

"Hmm. Step on it and see if it's really all that bad. Can't blow my foot off anyways ... right?"
Many years ago (when "Freedom Fries" were a thing), by boss came to me and said there was a request to know what it would take to make the IIP (of a currently designed mission with European overflight) go over a certain large city in Western Europe.  Nothing ever came of it, but I know for a fact it was a legitimate request.

Offline deruch

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #47 on: 01/05/2018 08:17 PM »
The IIP trace can be "easily" steered to fly over sparsely populated areas of west/central Cuba and western Panama.  The dwell time is not long.  Location of jettisoned items like SRBs, stages, and PLF can also be controlled by lofting and/or timing of dogleg maneuver.

All true, but there is a reason why such an early ascent flyovers over other nations are a thorny issue, and thus generally avoided.
Perhaps current attitude is different, as in ... to intentionally antagonize?

Where this is seen as "encouraged to take advantage of", as an opportunity, rather than to be avoided?

Because things aren't "bad enough" yet? To matter?

"Hmm. Step on it and see if it's really all that bad. Can't blow my foot off anyways ... right?"
Many years ago (when "Freedom Fries" were a thing), by boss came to me and said there was a request to know what it would take to make the IIP (of a currently designed mission with European overflight) go over a certain large city in Western Europe.  Nothing ever came of it, but I know for a fact it was a legitimate request.
For some values of "legitimate".
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline Ike17055

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #48 on: 01/07/2018 02:20 AM »
Wasn’t there once some discussion about a lauch complex at the old Roosevelt Roads air station in southern Puerto Rico? 

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BTW for those who probably don't know, two nations' rockets also had to fly dog-legs during initial ascent when launching to polar orbits (incidentally, both towards south) - Japan (to avoid the Philippines) and India (to avoid Sri Lanka). However in both cases there are no further land masses to the east and south that would constraint the flight path further downrange.
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #50 on: 01/07/2018 01:11 PM »
In the argument of one pad to launch them all. Let's not forget, using a bi elliptic transfer orbit with minimal dv losses it is possible to reach GEO from Vandenberg. Studies have also been done to reach ISS from Vandenberg. Clementine went to the Moon from Vandenberg. Throw in the rare need to launch retrograde and Vandenberg is the best location for a single pad.
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Offline deruch

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #51 on: 01/07/2018 10:05 PM »
In the argument of one pad to launch them all. Let's not forget, using a bi elliptic transfer orbit with minimal dv losses it is possible to reach GEO from Vandenberg. Studies have also been done to reach ISS from Vandenberg. Clementine went to the Moon from Vandenberg. Throw in the rare need to launch retrograde and Vandenberg is the best location for a single pad.

Except Gen. Monteith clearly identifies that greatly expanding launch capacity at Vandenberg is a struggle.  That support from the local area and state is lacking or that they are even opposed in some cases.  In contrast with Florida and the space coast, which he identifies as being helpful.  Maybe some of that's just cheerleading for his base, but I don't think it's a suggestion that can be totally ignored for anyone who was considering using a pad at VAFB for one-stop shopping.  If your annual launch rate is low, this likely isn't a big deal.  But if you plan to launch regularly, it's something to consider.
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline woods170

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #52 on: 01/08/2018 09:56 AM »
An article that talks about how FTS enables this new launch route:

Elon Musk's SpaceX has a new advantage: Blowing up its own rocket, automatically — Quartz

Quote
SpaceX, however, pursuing cheaper and more efficient launches, worked with the Air Force to turn over that duty to a GPS-equipped on-board computer, an “Automatic Flight Safety System” that debuted in 2017. ...

No other US rocket has this capability yet, and it could open up new advantages for SpaceX: The US Air Force is considering launches to polar orbits from Cape Canaveral, but the flight path is only viable if the rockets don’t need to be tracked for range-safety reasons. That means SpaceX is the only company that could take advantage of the new corridor to space.

It won't help SpaceX much... They already have a VAFB pad, which they need to use since both FL pads will be busy with regular traffic. I agree with others that this is likely being pushed more by Blue Origin and NorthropGrummanOrbitalATK (either by them or on behalf of them), since they wouldn't have to invest in west coast pads.

Delta IV's VAFB pad will be offline in about 5 years or less, which would be great for NG. Delta II's pad will be offline in less than a year, and NGL might be able to use that.
Not unless they completely and utterly rebuild it, right down to replacing the entire flame trench and everything else.
No, my guess is that you don't want to unnecessarily spend money on a VAFB launchpad (along with all its restrictions, such as the one described by Gen. Monteith) if you can pull-off all the required missions from a single pad. And AFTS just might enable this.

Online Lars-J

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #53 on: 01/08/2018 04:41 PM »
In the argument of one pad to launch them all. Let's not forget, using a bi elliptic transfer orbit with minimal dv losses it is possible to reach GEO from Vandenberg. Studies have also been done to reach ISS from Vandenberg. Clementine went to the Moon from Vandenberg. Throw in the rare need to launch retrograde and Vandenberg is the best location for a single pad.

Except Gen. Monteith clearly identifies that greatly expanding launch capacity at Vandenberg is a struggle.  That support from the local area and state is lacking or that they are even opposed in some cases.  In contrast with Florida and the space coast, which he identifies as being helpful.  Maybe some of that's just cheerleading for his base, but I don't think it's a suggestion that can be totally ignored for anyone who was considering using a pad at VAFB for one-stop shopping.  If your annual launch rate is low, this likely isn't a big deal.  But if you plan to launch regularly, it's something to consider.

I'm skeptical that this is such a big issue. SpaceX is expanding its VAFB footprint and missions. So it may actually be the reverse, that VAFB operations are costly and complex (per launch) if your flight rate is *low*.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #54 on: 01/09/2018 10:08 PM »
Suggest it is nothing more than a means to attract as many potential launch service providers to the  NSS "wanna be" role.

If there's more vying for such, even in a casual "onesy, twosy" way, this means that actual bidders won't inflate launch costs as much, out of fear of loss (likely directed at ULA costing, others really don't care so much).

OTOH, note the push to satisfy all potential missions in order to potentially bid, which has driven ULA to do Vulcan with Centaur V, likely as one vehicle that, with variable SRBs, can do all effectively (SX would need F9/FH, although am beginning to think that they may have still the edge on costing as one watches FH being fielded fairly effortlessly).

BO/NG and NGL fit the bill for new providers that could intrude. Long way off.

Offline woods170

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #55 on: 01/10/2018 07:02 AM »
OT: nice facepalm there GS.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #56 on: 01/10/2018 01:52 PM »
When is ULA going to introduce AFTS?

Online abaddon

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #57 on: 01/10/2018 02:47 PM »
When is ULA going to introduce AFTS?
Vulcan

Online AncientU

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #58 on: 01/10/2018 02:53 PM »
When is ULA going to introduce AFTS?
Vulcan

Maiden Vulcan or a later version?
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Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Air Force Identifies CCAFS southbound polar launch azimuth
« Reply #59 on: 01/10/2018 03:16 PM »
When is ULA going to introduce AFTS?
Vulcan

Maiden Vulcan or a later version?
AFAIK Vulcan will have the ULA version of AFTS from the get go. It may fly in engineering mode on Atlas V and Delta IV on some flights to gain data before Vulcans first flight.

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