Author Topic: Mars sample return  (Read 13176 times)

Offline zhangmdev

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #60 on: 06/17/2018 11:33 AM »
More than double the mass of OS is going to change the design of EEV?

The baseline Earth entry mass is/was 44 Kg. Is it still capable of protecting the 12 Kg OS?

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20080023907.pdf

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #61 on: 06/17/2018 05:28 PM »
There's more on this subject available. We had JPL come brief us about their progress back in December, and I think CAPS got a briefing. I don't know the current status of the rocket motor testing, but they started doing firings in September or October, and so they should be much farther along by now.

The other side of this is the budget issue. MSR tech development was prioritized in the decadal survey, but there was no funding for it from 2013 until last year. They are finally spending some money to do it, and they also seem to be planning on continuing to spend money on tech development. That's really good. But it's probably the case that a number of these issues could have been closed several years ago and they would be much further along on the R&D path.

Offline Don2

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #62 on: 06/17/2018 08:23 PM »
Here is a Caltech 2017 proposal for the MAV.

http://kiss.caltech.edu/lectures/Karp_Lecture_PPT.pdf

I think the original orbiting sample was going to be 5 kg.
By 2014 that was up to 6.65 kg, a 20cm sphere
By 2015 that was up to 14 kg, a 30 cm sphere
In 2018 it is 12 kg, a 28 cm sphere

Needless to say, the mass of Martian material hasn't increased at all.  The packaging has got a lot heavier.

This seems to have driven a shift to the hybrid rocket.  The hybrid rocket technology isn't that mature, with a TRL of 3 at the time of the presentation in March 2017.

@zhangmdev...I don't have anything on the sample return capsule.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #63 on: 06/17/2018 09:48 PM »
Here is a Caltech 2017 proposal for the MAV.

http://kiss.caltech.edu/lectures/Karp_Lecture_PPT.pdf

I think the original orbiting sample was going to be 5 kg.
By 2014 that was up to 6.65 kg, a 20cm sphere
By 2015 that was up to 14 kg, a 30 cm sphere
In 2018 it is 12 kg, a 28 cm sphere

Needless to say, the mass of Martian material hasn't increased at all.  The packaging has got a lot heavier.

This seems to have driven a shift to the hybrid rocket.  The hybrid rocket technology isn't that mature, with a TRL of 3 at the time of the presentation in March 2017.

@zhangmdev...I don't have anything on the sample return capsule.


They're at TRL 4 or higher by now. As I said, they were firing rocket engines as of last fall.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2018 10:55 PM by Blackstar »

Offline Don2

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #64 on: 06/18/2018 06:33 AM »
@Blackstar ... Any idea why the mass of the orbiting sample has gone up so much? 5 kg to 12 kg is a big increase and further increases could blow up the whole project.

Offline Star One

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Mars sample return
« Reply #65 on: 06/18/2018 07:13 AM »
There was an opinion piece in issue 3180 of New Scientist pages 22& 23 strongly backing Mars sample return and stating it should be a top priority mission. I doubt anyone looking on this thread is going to disagree with that sentiment.
« Last Edit: 06/18/2018 07:14 AM by Star One »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #66 on: 06/18/2018 10:15 AM »
@Blackstar ... Any idea why the mass of the orbiting sample has gone up so much? 5 kg to 12 kg is a big increase and further increases could blow up the whole project.

No. But I would not over-interpret the study that was done in 2010 for the decadal survey. That was just a concept design, not anything very advanced. So I don't think you can really take that and then draw a line to what is currently going on and say "the mass increased." What was being done in 2010 involved ballpark estimates. Now they're looking at real hardware (for instance, the actual sample canisters themselves).

Offline deruch

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #67 on: 07/03/2018 04:01 AM »
Here is a Caltech 2017 proposal for the MAV.

http://kiss.caltech.edu/lectures/Karp_Lecture_PPT.pdf

I think the original orbiting sample was going to be 5 kg.
By 2014 that was up to 6.65 kg, a 20cm sphere
By 2015 that was up to 14 kg, a 30 cm sphere
In 2018 it is 12 kg, a 28 cm sphere

Needless to say, the mass of Martian material hasn't increased at all.  The packaging has got a lot heavier.

This seems to have driven a shift to the hybrid rocket.  The hybrid rocket technology isn't that mature, with a TRL of 3 at the time of the presentation in March 2017.

@zhangmdev...I don't have anything on the sample return capsule.

Here's the lecture video to go with those charts:

Hybrid Rocket Propulsion for a Low Temperature Mars Ascent Vehicle
KISSCaltech
Published on Mar 20, 2017

Watch Dr. Ashley C. Karp from Jet Propulsion Laboratory discuss a hybrid propulsion system for a conceptual Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV). As part of a potential Mars Sample Return campaign, the MAV would be responsible for lifting Martian samples from the surface of Mars to orbit around Mars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGvjAsqxFGU?t=001s

Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline redliox

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #68 on: 07/03/2018 09:41 AM »
It's pleasing to see something materializing after all these years.  I still recall how there would have been a 2003 (or 2005, one or the other window) MSR attempt, but no doubt it would still have ultimately been put off.  I'm still not fond of the rendezvous idea, but at least it seems to be slowly becoming reality; whether or not the funds do of course is what it boils down to.

So a small hybrid rocket will put a ~12kg package into low orbit?
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #69 on: 07/03/2018 02:46 PM »
It's pleasing to see something materializing after all these years.  I still recall how there would have been a 2003 (or 2005, one or the other window) MSR attempt, but no doubt it would still have ultimately been put off.  I'm still not fond of the rendezvous idea, but at least it seems to be slowly becoming reality; whether or not the funds do of course is what it boils down to.

So a small hybrid rocket will put a ~12kg package into low orbit?

As one person asked me "MSR has been studied for decades, so what's different now?" I think that's a fair question, and there's actually a good answer.

First of all, I would step back and say that there are several things that are different now:

1-We have a much better understanding of Mars, including the best places go select samples. This is thanks to MRO, Odyssey, MER and Curiosity.

2-We have a much better understanding of biology and habitability.

3-Mars 2020, with sample caching capability, is being built.

So all of those things really set the stage and provide a firm foundation for finally implementing the next stages, including returning samples.

But as for what is new about the current studies: hardware testing. I think that if you go back to all the previous studies (thru around 2010) they were mostly basic trajectory analysis, engineering analysis, and maybe some basic simulation. Most of that stuff was the kind of thing that people do sitting at their computers and their desks. But the new aspects include test firing motors (see the slides I posted earlier, dating from November), and also doing detailed engineering simulations of the rendezvous concept. I think they've crunched some heavy computer time on the latter stuff. The result is that now they have real numbers that they can plug into their existing models and designs and refine them.

That's not to say that there is not a tremendous amount of work to be done developing a MAV. But the two biggest technology issues--the rocket motor and the rendezvous technique--have now been beaten down into shape. It has been seven months since those slides that I posted above, and they have undoubtedly made more progress. So the news is good.

Offline vjkane

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #70 on: 07/03/2018 03:04 PM »

As one person asked me "MSR has been studied for decades, so what's different now?" I think that's a fair question, and there's actually a good answer.


As Blackstar notes, the technology developments are the game changer -- without them, a 2020s sample return wouldn't be possible.

In addition to his list, I believe the European willingness to consider (formal approval would come at the next ESA ministerial meeting, which I believe is next year) making significant contributions to the effort.  This greatly reduces the costs to NASA.

Under the proposed division of effort, ESA would provide:

- the sample return orbiter
- sample fetch rover
- sample return transfer arm that would take the samples from the fetch rover and place them in the sample container

NASA would provide:

- 2020 sample collection rover
- sample return lander that would place the Mars ascent vehicle (MAV) and the fetch rover on the surface
- the MAV
- the sample capture, handling, and containment system on the return orbiter
- Earth entry vehicle


Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #71 on: 07/03/2018 03:35 PM »

China's 2028 HX-2 looks to be their sample return mission, based on the roadmap picture?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg1834660#msg1834660

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #72 on: 07/03/2018 03:39 PM »

As one person asked me "MSR has been studied for decades, so what's different now?" I think that's a fair question, and there's actually a good answer.


As Blackstar notes, the technology developments are the game changer -- without them, a 2020s sample return wouldn't be possible.


I never use the term "game changer." In fact, I ban it from my reports.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #73 on: 07/03/2018 03:42 PM »
In addition to his list, I believe the European willingness to consider (formal approval would come at the next ESA ministerial meeting, which I believe is next year) making significant contributions to the effort.  This greatly reduces the costs to NASA.

Under the proposed division of effort, ESA would provide:

- the sample return orbiter
- sample fetch rover
- sample return transfer arm that would take the samples from the fetch rover and place them in the sample container

NASA would provide:

- 2020 sample collection rover
- sample return lander that would place the Mars ascent vehicle (MAV) and the fetch rover on the surface
- the MAV
- the sample capture, handling, and containment system on the return orbiter
- Earth entry vehicle


So I am hopeful that the NASA-European collaboration will take place. When we did the decadal survey, our expectation was that there would be substantial international participation. In fact, that's something that hurt us a bit, because we had to price out the MSR mission as an all-NASA mission, but the expectation was that the return vehicle would probably be built by the Europeans and would reduce the American cost by hundreds of millions of dollars.

That said, I've seen international agreements collapse before. And it's happened because the United States was an unreliable partner. So I really temper my enthusiasm about this. I want it to happen, but I am nervous about it.

Offline redliox

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #74 on: 07/04/2018 01:32 AM »
3-Mars 2020, with sample caching capability, is being built.

So all of those things really set the stage and provide a firm foundation for finally implementing the next stages, including returning samples.

On the subject of foundation, in regards to MSR Mars 2020 will end up being immensely influential.  The most obvious reason being...it's going to define where our samples come from and where the fetch rover and MAV need to land.  And, as you well know, we've already narrowed down this influential choice down to 3 possibilities (more like 2 or 2.5 given how the non-Gusev Crater sites are next door to each other).

Any thoughts on how 2020 will directly affect MSR, with emphasis on the MAV?

On a broader note, what about future samples?  This first batch of samples will of course be a quantum leap in understanding Mars, but they will still speak only of one region of a planet.  Should there be additional MSR missions or perhaps left up to humans to pickup the job?
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
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Offline bolun

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #75 on: 07/22/2018 02:46 PM »
Airbus wins two ESA studies for Mars Sample Return mission

Stevenage / Toulouse, 05/07/2018 - Airbus has won two studies from the European Space Agency (ESA) to design a Sample Fetch Rover and an Earth Return Orbiter. These two elements will be critical parts of a mission to return samples of the planet Mars to Earth before the end of the next decade. NASA and ESA signed a letter of intent in April 2018 to pursue a Mars Sample Return mission.
 
After launching to Mars in 2026, the Mars Sample Fetch Rover will retrieve Mars samples left by the Mars2020 rover. This NASA rover will leave 36 pen sized sample tubes on the Martian surface ready to be collected later. The Sample Fetch Rover will pick up the sample tubes, carry them back and load them into a sample container within the waiting Mars Ascent Vehicle. The Mars Ascent Vehicle will then launch from the surface and put the sample container into orbit about Mars.

As a third part of the mission, ESA’s Earth Return Orbiter, will capture the basketball sized sample container orbiting Mars, seal it within a biocontainment system, and bring the samples back to Earth. The samples will re-enter Earth’s atmosphere and land in the USA before the end of the next decade. Scientists from around the world will then be able to study the samples in using the latest laboratory equipment and analysis techniques for years to come.

Patrick Lelong, Project Manager by Airbus for the Earth Return Orbiter study, said: “Our long experience in complex scientific exploration missions such as Rosetta, BepiColombo and Mars Express will be a great asset for this study. The mission is technologically very challenging, but the prospect of seeing a sample of Mars returning to Earth is very exciting.”

Ben Boyes, Project Manager by Airbus for the Sample Fetch Rover study, said: “With the combined expertise of ESA and NASA, this landmark mission is ambitious and technologically very advanced, with two rovers interacting together on Mars for the first time. A double first of launching from the planet’s surface and the in-orbit transfer of the samples means it will be possible for the first time to directly study Mars soil in laboratories on Earth.”

David Parker, Director of Human and Robotic Exploration at ESA, said: “Bringing samples back from Mars is essential in more than one way. Firstly to understand why Mars, although it is the planet that is most similar to Earth, took a very different evolutionary path than Earth and secondly to fully comprehend the Martian environment in order to allow humans to one day work and live on the Red Planet. I am very pleased that with these two studies now being commissioned and in combination with other studies conducted elsewhere in Europe we make another important step to explore Mars.”

Both Sample Fetch Rover and Earth Return Orbiter are part of ESA-NASA’s proposed Mars Sample Return mission that is looking to be approved at the 2019 ESA council at ministerial level.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2018/07/Airbus-wins-two-ESA-studies-for-Mars-Sample-Return-mission.html

Offline bolun

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #76 on: 07/22/2018 02:49 PM »
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-space-sector-set-to-benefit-from-new-european-space-agency-contract

Quote
A new rover set to visit Mars and collect the first ever samples from the planet to be brought back safely to Earth, will be designed in Stevenage by Airbus following the award of a £3.9 million contract by the European Space Agency (ESA).

The sample fetch rover will retrieve samples left by NASA’s Mars 2020 rover and transfer them to an ascent vehicle. This will put them into orbit about the planet, where they will then be brought back to Earth by a separate spacecraft.

Image credit: Airbus

Offline redliox

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #77 on: 07/24/2018 03:30 PM »
Thanks to perseverance, I think in the next 10 years we might finally see MSR happen.   A few thoughts occur to me, but this time not so much out of criticism but out of long-term goals...

When MSR happens, it is going to be very dependent on where Mars 2020 grabs its collection; this is going to boil down to either Gusev Crater or the trio of sites around Jezero Crater.  Very good science yields will result, that much will be sure.  Downside: ultimately we're only going to get material from one region of Mars when, even on a glorified desert planet, there are different landscapes with diverging histories.

What happens next after 2020-MSR?  Will there be more sampling missions?  Will they follow the exact same routine or a different one?  I'm curious if missions after (the first) MSR are being considered, although understandably 2020-MSR alone warrants enough attention.
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Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #78 on: 07/24/2018 05:57 PM »
<snip>
What happens next after 2020-MSR?  Will there be more sampling missions?  Will they follow the exact same routine or a different one?  I'm curious if missions after (the first) MSR are being considered, although understandably 2020-MSR alone warrants enough attention.
Good question!  Three further thoughts:

ONE
Should a full set of spare assemblies and parts be constructed as part of the initial MSR build, by the several international partners, that could be assembled as a follow-on mission?  (Orbiter, lander, sample return)

TWO
Should final mission assembly and launch of such an "MSR-F/O" wait until the initial study of the first returned samples is completed?

OR, THREE
Is the built-in assumption that MSR will be succeeded, within a few years, by crewed landing and sample return missions?

EDIT 7/26: A similar discussion re: cost savings via duplicating/triplicating s/c for follow-on missions, particularly Ice Giants missions, started after this post: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33971.msg1840509#msg1840509
« Last Edit: 07/26/2018 06:22 PM by zubenelgenubi »
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Online TripleSeven

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #79 on: 07/24/2018 06:01 PM »
Thanks to perseverance, I think in the next 10 years we might finally see MSR happen.   A few thoughts occur to me, but this time not so much out of criticism but out of long-term goals...

When MSR happens, it is going to be very dependent on where Mars 2020 grabs its collection; this is going to boil down to either Gusev Crater or the trio of sites around Jezero Crater.  Very good science yields will result, that much will be sure.  Downside: ultimately we're only going to get material from one region of Mars when, even on a glorified desert planet, there are different landscapes with diverging histories.

What happens next after 2020-MSR?  Will there be more sampling missions?  Will they follow the exact same routine or a different one?  I'm curious if missions after (the first) MSR are being considered, although understandably 2020-MSR alone warrants enough attention.

at the cost level necessary, the first mars samples will be the last ones for awhile. 

but we are not all the close to having any at all...maybe 20 years away

Tags: Mars