Author Topic: ULA Vulcan Launch Vehicle (as announced/built) - General Discussion Thread 3  (Read 176719 times)

Offline jongoff

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Doesn't LM have a say in this? Not sure how it works to their advantage not to develop the tech.

LM has the same position that Boeing has. Why fund something ourselves when we can wait for a government contract to fund the whole thing?

Why invest in something with risks when executives can get better rewards by using the money to buy back stocks?

~Jon

Online Llian Rhydderch

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In the part of my post you quoted, you left out the primary question asked.

Here's was your post:


or "Utilization sensors are not used for loading on a few particular (but unnamed) US government-contracted rockets I/Jim am familiar with." ?

[Polite Jim 3000] ::)[/Polite Jim 3000]

And US government-contracted rockets  includes Falcon 9, Antares, etc.

Here's what I asked:

Utilization sensors are not used for loading.   Level sensors are used for loading and they typically are at the 98, 99, 100 & 101% levels

Would be super helpful to have clarification on your statement.

Did you mean to say:  "Utilization sensors are not used for loading on all rockets ever, worldwide, of all designs."

or "Utilization sensors are not used for loading on a few particular (but unnamed) US government-contracted rockets I/Jim am familiar with." ?


Your statement was unqualified: 
Quote
Utilization sensors are not used for loading.   Level sensors are used for loading and they typically are at the 98, 99, 100 & 101% levels

Is your statement intended to be some sort of universal truth.  This is the only way all launch vehicles are designed?

Or is it, as is more likely, just true for some subset of rockets you know about?  If the latter, I'd really like to know, which rockets of all rockets built since 1957 are the one you were referring to?
Re arguments from authority on NSF:  "no one is exempt from error, and errors of authority are usually the worst kind.  Taking your word for things without question is no different than a bracket design not being tested because the designer was an old hand."
"You would actually save yourself time and effort if you were to use evidence and logic to make your points instead of wrapping yourself in the royal mantle of authority.  The approach only works on sheep, not inquisitive, intelligent people."

Online MaxTeranous

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What is the difference between a utilization sensor and a level sensor ?

Offline edkyle99

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What is the difference between a utilization sensor and a level sensor ?
My guess is that "utilization sensor" means something that is part of the "propellant utilization system" on a liquid rocket stage.  The "PU" system is designed to feed the bipropellants at the correct rates to get near-zero residuals at cutoff.  That would require a means to detect or infer propellant levels when the tanks are nearing empty. 

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 02/12/2019 01:22 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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https://twitter.com/b0yle/status/1095431437728313346

Quote
[email protected]'s Kevin Runyon says factory in Decatur, Ala., is being geared up to produce up to 20 next-gen #Vulcan rockets per year. Will have "greater capability" than Atlas for payload rideshare. #CST2019

Offline TrevorMonty


Good article on NG development kf Gem63 and Gem63XL for Atlas and Vulcan. NG will also use Gem63XL on their Omega LV.

www.thespacereview.com/article/3658/1

"Orbital ATK promised to fund all of the upfront engineering costs themselves using a combination of internal and Air Force funding and also deliver the new motors at a price some 40 percent lowerthan the existing AJ-60A, for which ULA charges $5 million."

Not sure if $5M is Gem price or AJ60A, if later then GEM63 is $3M.


Offline Jim

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In the part of my post you quoted, you left out the primary question asked.

Here's was your post:


or "Utilization sensors are not used for loading on a few particular (but unnamed) US government-contracted rockets I/Jim am familiar with." ?

[Polite Jim 3000] ::)[/Polite Jim 3000]

And US government-contracted rockets  includes Falcon 9, Antares, etc.

Here's what I asked:

Utilization sensors are not used for loading.   Level sensors are used for loading and they typically are at the 98, 99, 100 & 101% levels

Would be super helpful to have clarification on your statement.

Did you mean to say:  "Utilization sensors are not used for loading on all rockets ever, worldwide, of all designs."

or "Utilization sensors are not used for loading on a few particular (but unnamed) US government-contracted rockets I/Jim am familiar with." ?


Your statement was unqualified: 
Quote
Utilization sensors are not used for loading.   Level sensors are used for loading and they typically are at the 98, 99, 100 & 101% levels

Is your statement intended to be some sort of universal truth.  This is the only way all launch vehicles are designed?

Or is it, as is more likely, just true for some subset of rockets you know about?  If the latter, I'd really like to know, which rockets of all rockets built since 1957 are the one you were referring to?

Most rockets don't have utilization sensors

Online Llian Rhydderch

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Thanks, Jim.  Helpful answer.

Qualifying absolute statements can be a beautiful thing, and is helpful to conveying meaning in natural language.
Re arguments from authority on NSF:  "no one is exempt from error, and errors of authority are usually the worst kind.  Taking your word for things without question is no different than a bracket design not being tested because the designer was an old hand."
"You would actually save yourself time and effort if you were to use evidence and logic to make your points instead of wrapping yourself in the royal mantle of authority.  The approach only works on sheep, not inquisitive, intelligent people."

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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https://twitter.com/b0yle/status/1095431437728313346

Quote
[email protected]'s Kevin Runyon says factory in Decatur, Ala., is being geared up to produce up to 20 next-gen #Vulcan rockets per year. Will have "greater capability" than Atlas for payload rideshare. #CST2019

Really capable of building 20 Vulcan rockets annually. Isn't that a tiny bit overdone aka double the required production rate (and that's a optimistic assumption).  ::) :-[
« Last Edit: 02/15/2019 07:31 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline GWH

So? I doubt any of their machine centers are major production bottlenecks. If they need more than 6 and less than 20 in a year labour might be the only variable needed.

Better than being constrained to 1 rocket per year like certain government programs. :D

Offline rayleighscatter

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https://twitter.com/b0yle/status/1095431437728313346

Quote
[email protected]'s Kevin Runyon says factory in Decatur, Ala., is being geared up to produce up to 20 next-gen #Vulcan rockets per year. Will have "greater capability" than Atlas for payload rideshare. #CST2019

Really capable of building 20 Vulcan rockets annually. Isn't that a tiny bit overdone aka double the required production rate (and that's a optimistic assumption).  ::) :-[

It's probably due to an increase in automation. Machines have certain rates they work at regardless of how slow you can afford to go.

My desktop printer can print half a million pages a year. That doesn't mean I am printing half a million pages a year.

Offline russianhalo117

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Good article on NG development kf Gem63 and Gem63XL for Atlas and Vulcan. NG will also use Gem63XL on their Omega LV.

www.thespacereview.com/article/3658/1

"Orbital ATK promised to fund all of the upfront engineering costs themselves using a combination of internal and Air Force funding and also deliver the new motors at a price some 40 percent lowerthan the existing AJ-60A, for which ULA charges $5 million."

Not sure if $5M is Gem price or AJ60A, if later then GEM63 is $3M.
Actually per NGIS they will use another version called GEM-63XLT

Offline russianhalo117

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https://twitter.com/b0yle/status/1095431437728313346

Quote
[email protected]'s Kevin Runyon says factory in Decatur, Ala., is being geared up to produce up to 20 next-gen #Vulcan rockets per year. Will have "greater capability" than Atlas for payload rideshare. #CST2019

Really capable of building 20 Vulcan rockets annually. Isn't that a tiny bit overdone aka double the required production rate (and that's a optimistic assumption).  ::) :-[
20 Vulcan rockets initially upon completion of DIV production. There will be even higher annual capacity when the Atlas and Cenaur lines close down and existing launcher storage areas are emptied.

Online ZachF

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So, all of the new EELV contracts went to Atlas launches in the 2021-2022 timeframe.... Is Vulcan going to launch before 2022?
artist, so take opinions expressed above with a well-rendered grain of salt...
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Offline Sknowball

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So, all of the new EELV contracts went to Atlas launches in the 2021-2022 timeframe.... Is Vulcan going to launch before 2022?

The EELV awards that came out last week were EELV1, as Vulcan is not an EELV1 certified vehicle it could not be bid for these (just like how Blue Origin and NGIS could not bid New Glenn or OmegA).

Offline russianhalo117

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So, all of the new EELV contracts went to Atlas launches in the 2021-2022 timeframe.... Is Vulcan going to launch before 2022?
They were EELV1 contract awards. EELV2 awards are contingent upon EELV2 launcher downselect and launcher contract awards which hasn't occurred yet.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/1100165131101720579

Quote
Just finished a nice interview with @torybruno. The first flight hardware for Vulcan is now being produced at ULA’s factory in Alabama. First launch remains set for Spring 2021.

https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/1100167165578235905

Quote
Critical design review for Vulcan should be completed soon, says @torybruno. Waiting on some final data from BE-4 engine tests. He says Blue Origin has completed dozens of hotfire tests to date on the BE-4, the most powerful methane rocket engine ever built.

Presumably waiting to get higher than 70% power?
« Last Edit: 02/25/2019 10:00 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

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