Author Topic: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion  (Read 8250 times)

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #340 on: 12/06/2017 02:34 PM »
Might have been a good opportunity to speak with NASA and Orbital/ATK for testing a Cygnus to ISS as was the case when they made a flight with ULA on Atlas. A load of consumables would probably be welcomed if there is room to store on ISS...
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Online meekGee

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #341 on: 12/06/2017 02:47 PM »
Hello,

Could the car be equipped with 2 telescopes continuously transmitting (within BW) images of Earth and Mars?

Otherwise, I think sending a car out there will have only short term and minimal PR value. Many will interpret it as nonsense. IMO, a missed opportunity for SpaceX to grab more mindshare and for longer.
Even considering the case of "no extra goodies", it'll grab headlines and add to SpaceX's cool factor.

They should talk about the possibilities of one day retrieving it, or of visiting it in space, and these kinds of things fire fire up the imagination of anyone (almost).

SpaceX is not just a launch company. SpaceX wants to affect a huge social goal. This meshes perfectly with that goal.
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Online gongora

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #342 on: 12/06/2017 02:53 PM »
They don't have any permits for communicating with the payload.  The most likely explanation for that is an inert payload.

Online speedevil

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #343 on: 12/06/2017 03:10 PM »
To start a separate subthread.
Assuming for the moment that the Roadster idea is real.

When might this idea have happened?
He's had the roadster since around 2008, so that's no constraint.

In 2016, there the professed intention to launch Red Dragon to mars in 2018, though this seems to have slipped to 2020 by May 2017.

By at the latest summer 2017, it was clear Red Dragon was not happening.

The launch windows for Mars are roughly every two years:
Oct 2015-Mar 2016
Oct 2017-May 2018.
Nov 2019-Aug 2020

Up to March 2016, it's clear that Red Dragon was thought to be the first payload to Mars, and at this time it was clear that F9H wasn't in any way going to be ready for the trailing edge of the 2016 window.
As late as May 2017, noises were being made about a dual Red Dragon in 2020.

It seems unlikely any concrete development would be made on the Tesla plan before it became clear that NASA wasn't going to fund RD, and the decisions about retro-propulsion on commercial crew killed last hopes of doing it without NASA funding, as it would have been yet more investment at a time when ITS/BFR was coming into mind as the way forward.

For several of the proposed inaugural Falcon Heavy launch dates, it would have entirely missed the window to Mars.
In April 2017, it seemed that FH might make the october beginning of the launch window, if everything went right.

So, if up till July (?) it was thought that Red Dragon was happening, it may be that they had to initially aim at design and construction for this payload to happen in 3 months or so?

Perhaps by April 2017 it became clearer to Elon that Red Dragon was not going to proceed, hence the 'silliest thing we can imagine' tweet was aimed at this idea, meaning ~6mo.

Online Herb Schaltegger

Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #344 on: 12/06/2017 03:18 PM »
They don't have any permits for communicating with the payload.  The most likely explanation for that is an inert payload.

Thatís true, but itís possible that the FCC will issue STA (Special Temporary Authority) for short-term TT&C for a few hours to remain in contact with the payload post-SECO; that would at least allow some passive reception of video and stage safing/monitoring as it recedes.
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Online gongora

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #345 on: 12/06/2017 03:21 PM »
They don't have any permits for communicating with the payload.  The most likely explanation for that is an inert payload.

Thatís true, but itís possible that the FCC will issue STA (Special Temporary Authority) for short-term TT&C for a few hours to remain in contact with the payload post-SECO; that would at least allow some passive reception of video and stage safing/monitoring as it recedes.

I don't see an application for any STA dealing with the payload.  If they intend to do one they're sure taking a long time to file it.

Offline Shanuson

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #346 on: 12/06/2017 03:24 PM »
They don't have any permits for communicating with the payload.  The most likely explanation for that is an inert payload.

Thatís true, but itís possible that the FCC will issue STA (Special Temporary Authority) for short-term TT&C for a few hours to remain in contact with the payload post-SECO; that would at least allow some passive reception of video and stage safing/monitoring as it recedes.

I don't see an application for any STA dealing with the payload.  If they intend to do one they're sure taking a long time to file it.

Do we already have a FCC application for the launch itself? If the car stays with the 2nd stage it would be part of the rocket itself and so maybe the communication with it would also be part of the launch FCC application?

Online Herb Schaltegger

Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #347 on: 12/06/2017 03:28 PM »
They don't have any permits for communicating with the payload.  The most likely explanation for that is an inert payload.

Thatís true, but itís possible that the FCC will issue STA (Special Temporary Authority) for short-term TT&C for a few hours to remain in contact with the payload post-SECO; that would at least allow some passive reception of video and stage safing/monitoring as it recedes.

I don't see an application for any STA dealing with the payload.  If they intend to do one they're sure taking a long time to file it.

Do we already have a FCC application for the launch itself? If the car stays with the 2nd stage it would be part of the rocket itself and so maybe the communication with it would also be part of the launch FCC application?

Right. Basically, the STA would be for an ďextended coastĒ post-injection burn; a modification of the launch TT&C permit. Itís been a year or two since I looked at an STA application, or a permit for launch, so itís possible the launch permit may be enough to allow tracking & comms for long enough to cover any PR video stuff.
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Online gongora

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #348 on: 12/06/2017 03:33 PM »
Do we already have a FCC application for the launch itself? If the car stays with the 2nd stage it would be part of the rocket itself and so maybe the communication with it would also be part of the launch FCC application?

Right. Basically, the STA would be for an ďextended coastĒ post-injection burn; a modification of the launch TT&C permit. Itís been a year or two since I looked at an STA application, or a permit for launch, so itís possible the launch permit may be enough to allow tracking & comms for long enough to cover any PR video stuff.

Yeah, they can transmit from the second stage cameras as long as that stage is alive, and they could have a car mounted camera, but it doesn't appear they intend to transmit anything from the car after it separates from the second stage (assuming it does separate from the second stage, I'd assume they want a shot of it floating away).

Offline andrewsdanj

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #349 on: 12/06/2017 10:05 PM »
Now, one thing that I am curious about is the total mass (Tesla + attached upper 'coast' stage + whatever) placed into a Mars transfer orbit, as compared to (say) the total cruise mass of Curiosity.

It would be quite an achievement to beat the Atlas V 541 in terms of mass through TMI whilst recovering all three cores... Time will tell I guess!

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #350 on: 12/07/2017 08:38 AM »
The launch windows for Mars are roughly every two years:
Oct 2015-Mar 2016
Oct 2017-May 2018.
Nov 2019-Aug 2020
Thanks. That neatly quantifies the BFR/BFS schedule

Just to confirm you're saying to hit Mars in 2022 they need to be ready for launch by Aug 2020 at the latest?
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Online nacnud

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #351 on: 12/07/2017 08:51 AM »
No journey to mars is less than that, around 6-9 months, but BFR has been advertised to take less time, around 3 months.

Offline hektor

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #352 on: 12/07/2017 09:51 AM »
I hope they put some message in the glove box for whomever retrieves it.

Online speedevil

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #353 on: 12/07/2017 10:04 AM »
The launch windows for Mars are roughly every two years:
Oct 2015-Mar 2016
Oct 2017-May 2018.
Nov 2019-Aug 2020
Thanks. That neatly quantifies the BFR/BFS schedule

Just to confirm you're saying to hit Mars in 2022 they need to be ready for launch by Aug 2020 at the latest?

For 2022 Mars arrival, the window ends on ~Sep 26 2022, at high energy (5.7km/s), ending up on Mars on Dec 31 2022.
Relaxing '2022' somewhat, and launching Sep 10 gets you there in April 2023, needing only 4km/s.

link

There are high energy ~80-100 day transits for many transits, if you spend a kilometer a second or two extra fuel.

link



To drag this back on topic, you can also do a high energy launch up to perhaps the first week of Jan, taking ~22 months to Mars for 1.5km/s extra.
« Last Edit: 12/07/2017 03:03 PM by gongora »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #354 on: 12/08/2017 08:06 AM »
A further, but very important, payload detail:

Quote
Will the glove box contain "The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy"?
https://twitter.com/tiamaria68uk/status/938930620511801345

Quote
Yes
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/938947119246860290

Quote
Plus a towel and a sign saying ďDonít PanicĒ
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/938947119246860290

Offline Semmel

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #355 on: 12/08/2017 12:03 PM »
Imagine in about 100M years, some alien civilization finds the solar system. Humans are long gone and extinct. Some ruins on the planets surface are left but nothing major. Some stray satellites are still around, not many since most are kicked out by the moon. Then they find the roadster. First of all.. why would there be a wheeled thing in orbit? Its the first and only clue they get for the shape and physiology of humans since all other sats were robotic and apart from handling tools, nothing would indicate the size or shape of humans. So there is this car, what the hell does it do in orbit? And the aliens find the book in the glove box. Of course, they dont know its a glove box but they find the book there. And they reverse engineer the human culture from that book if its not turned to dust. Ohh dear ohh dear, the misinterpretations!

Online AncientU

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #356 on: 12/08/2017 12:05 PM »
Imagine in about 100M years, some alien civilization finds the solar system. Humans are long gone and extinct. Some ruins on the planets surface are left but nothing major. Some stray satellites are still around, not many since most are kicked out by the moon. Then they find the roadster. First of all.. why would there be a wheeled thing in orbit? Its the first and only clue they get for the shape and physiology of humans since all other sats were robotic and apart from handling tools, nothing would indicate the size or shape of humans. So there is this car, what the hell does it do in orbit? And the aliens find the book in the glove box. Of course, they dont know its a glove box but they find the book there. And they reverse engineer the human culture from that book if its not turned to dust. Ohh dear ohh dear, the misinterpretations!

They'd get the mostly harmless part right.
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Online nacnud

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #357 on: 12/08/2017 12:06 PM »
They would overestimate our understanding of the universe though.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #358 on: 12/08/2017 12:46 PM »
The launch windows for Mars are roughly every two years:
Oct 2015-Mar 2016
Oct 2017-May 2018.
Nov 2019-Aug 2020
Thanks. That neatly quantifies the BFR/BFS schedule

Just to confirm you're saying to hit Mars in 2022 they need to be ready for launch by Aug 2020 at the latest?

For 2022 Mars arrival, the window ends on ~Sep 26 2022, at high energy (5.7km/s), ending up on Mars on Dec 31 2022.
Relaxing '2022' somewhat, and launching Sep 10 gets you there in April 2023, needing only 4km/s.

There are high energy ~80-100 day transits for many transits, if you spend a kilometer a second or two extra fuel.

To drag this back on topic, you can also do a high energy launch up to perhaps the first week of Jan, taking ~22 months to Mars for 1.5km/s extra.
Excellent clarification. Thank you. Orbital mechanics is not my strong suit.

I think Musk has been talking in terms of 90-100 day trips. Also that allows maximum time to build BFR/BFS
So until the end of Q322 to get it done. I'm guessing the first BFR/BFS's will be loaded to whatever level is needed to assure that delta v capability.

About 4 years and 9 months.

The clock is definitely running.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2017 12:48 PM by john smith 19 »
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Offline StarTracker

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Re: Falcon Heavy Demo Mission Payload Discussion
« Reply #359 on: 12/08/2017 01:33 PM »
With apologies for being "that guy," (and for being off-topic) Snoopy could also inform their archaeological pursuits:

https://omnologos.wordpress.com/2008/10/02/snoopy-the-apollo-lunar-module-awaiting-collection/

Imagine in about 100M years, some alien civilization finds the solar system. Humans are long gone and extinct. Some ruins on the planets surface are left but nothing major. Some stray satellites are still around, not many since most are kicked out by the moon. Then they find the roadster. First of all.. why would there be a wheeled thing in orbit? Its the first and only clue they get for the shape and physiology of humans since all other sats were robotic and apart from handling tools, nothing would indicate the size or shape of humans. So there is this car, what the hell does it do in orbit? And the aliens find the book in the glove box. Of course, they dont know its a glove box but they find the book there. And they reverse engineer the human culture from that book if its not turned to dust. Ohh dear ohh dear, the misinterpretations!

Tags: ksp Mars