Once and for all, FACT: COTS monies were used for Falcon 9 development

[Jim]

From this thread

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43851.msg1732217#msg1732217

No, it is fact. It is sourced on the wikipedia Falcon 9 article, with a quote directly from Shotwell.

NASA ultimately gave us about $396 million; SpaceX put in over $450 million ... [for an] EELV-class launch vehcle ... as well as a capsule

Repeating this.  COTS money was used for Falcon development.

[Jim]

This is to correct the misinformation that has been spread at all these places:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43290.msg1703332#msg1703332

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38021.msg1675629#msg1675629

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41712.msg1621851#msg1621851

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39540.msg1494911#msg1494911

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40640.msg1705725#msg1705725

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37873.msg1394631#msg1394631

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35157.msg1229497#msg1229497

[ncb1397]

Repeating this.  COTS money was used for Falcon development.

Considering that SpaceX was essentially broke after the 4th Falcon 1 flight, it has always been obvious that CRS milestone payments and COTS payments sustained them during Falcon 9 development.

[jpo234]

Repeating this.  COTS money was used for Falcon development.

Considering that SpaceX was essentially broke after the 4th Falcon 1 flight, it has always been obvious that CRS milestone payments and COTS payments sustained them during Falcon 9 development.

Not just SpaceX, but Elon personally stared into the abyss. SpaceX was saved by COTS and Tesla was saved by Daimler.

[Lar]

This is to correct the misinformation that has been spread at all these places:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43290.msg1703332#msg1703332

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38021.msg1675629#msg1675629

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41712.msg1621851#msg1621851

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39540.msg1494911#msg1494911

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40640.msg1705725#msg1705725

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37873.msg1394631#msg1394631

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35157.msg1229497#msg1229497

Good work saving all those links.

Whenever I see a state government say "we are spending all the lottery money on schools" I laugh. Because it's one big budget... lottery money is one income source among many, schools are one expenditure among many.

NASA bought a service which had multiple components, multiple deliverables, multiple milestones.... Did SpaceX money fund Dragon and NASA fund F9? or was it the other way around? Or half and half?

Answer: You can't say. It doesn't work that way.  I don't think that anyone disputes that SpaceX got money from NASA. Or SES, or Iridium, or the government of Taiwan, etc.

[meekGee]

Who cares.

The question is whether SpaceX became a stagnant government-dependent risk-averse contractor, or did they retain their drive, innovation, independence, while also servicing government contracts.

This is what matters and the answer to that is clear.

[Ludus]

Or is SpaceX funding NASA by offering drastically lower bids for launch services they need than they could ever get from another contractor or by any other means?

[Jim]

Who cares.

Many care, hence the number of links
The rest has nothing to do with the topic

[Jim]

Or is SpaceX funding NASA by offering drastically lower bids for launch services they need than they could ever get from another contractor or by any other means?

Spacex has only launched one spacecraft for NASA

[Ludus]

Or is SpaceX funding NASA by offering drastically lower bids for launch services they need than they could ever get from another contractor or by any other means?

Spacex has only launched one spacecraft for NASA

Cargo/Crew support of the ISS isn’t part of the NASA budget?

[envy887]

Many care, hence the number of links
...

TIL that "many" = Coastal Ron.

[McDew]

From by personnel experience with NASA HQ during the COTS procurement, they were very forth comming in admitting that the one of the objectives of the COTS procurement was to fund development of a Delta II replacement.

[spacenut]

Anyone could have bid on COTS.  Anyone.  SpaceX used the money more wisely than others. or it wasn't enough for others.  They had a plan for Falcon 5, later Falcon 9, and they had developed the Merlin engine on their own dime.  They got the contract and used the money wisely and developed Falcon 9.  Now that allowed them to launch private satellites as well as service ISS.  Yes it helped get them over the hump.  Lockheed and Boeing have taken far more money from the government to do things for far longer.  The good thing about COTS is NASA didn't tell SpaceX or Orbital how to develop their engines or rockets, just the capability to deliver the payloads.  This is how they should have developed SLS.  Get Boeing or Lockheed or Grumman to develop a rocket to deliver say 100 tons to LEO.  Then choose the lowest cost provider.  They probably should get out of the launch vehicle business now, and just concentrate on payloads for these various vehicles. 

[Space Ghost 1962]

Or is SpaceX funding NASA by offering drastically lower bids for launch services they need than they could ever get from another contractor or by any other means?

Spacex has only launched one spacecraft for NASA

As has Antares.

[ZachF]

Money is fungible. This is pedantic.

[meekGee]

Who cares.

Many care, hence the number of links
The rest has nothing to do with the topic

Actually, most people care about SpaceX's achievements and future plans.

Some, however, care about that F9S2 is not reusable, and that BFR is not 12m but "only" 9.

Hence the premise of this thread.

[AncientU]

Possibly the best $396M spent by the USG this century.

[QuantumG]

I believe the claim is that SpaceX didn't receive the money for Falcon 9 development, they received it for Dragon development and used it for Falcon 9 development... but even that isn't 100% correct as there were explicit payments for Falcon 9 risk reduction.

[meekGee]

I believe the claim is that SpaceX didn't receive the money for Falcon 9 development, they received it for Dragon development and used it for Falcon 9 development... but even that isn't 100% correct as there were explicit payments for Falcon 9 risk reduction.

And in either case, what's the OP's point exactly?

SpaceX developed and is operating F9 and Dragon (and Merlin, and FH) for much less than what the competition charge, and has done it with a fraction of the manpower.

If you look at how much of that pie was government money, it's even a smaller fraction.

Even before you count little annual $1B payments for "assurance".

And since there is no argument on whether SpaceX received government payments for work it has performed, what is the premise here?

[savuporo]

NASA bought a service which had multiple components, multiple deliverables, multiple milestones.... Did SpaceX money fund Dragon and NASA fund F9? or was it the other way around? Or half and half?

Answer: You can't say. It doesn't work that way. ..

Yes you can, when contracts and NASA press releases explicitly say so.

the first nine engine firing of its Falcon 9 launch vehicle at its Texas Test Facility outside McGregor on July 31st. A second firing on August 1st completed a major NASA Commercial Orbital Transportation Services (COTS) milestone almost two months early.
..
“This was the most difficult milestone in development of the Falcon 9 launch vehicle

https://www.nasa.gov/offices/c3po/home/spacex_9enginefire.html