Author Topic: BFR ASDS  (Read 11179 times)

Offline CameronD

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #20 on: 10/02/2017 03:50 AM »
If the ASDS is truly mobile, it can get away from bad weather spots.

You still need to get to it, but 100 miles in each direction is not a big deal.

Unfortunately, 100 miles @ 5kts = 20 hours actually IS a big deal.. especially since that means your mobile platform is down for most of a day, meaning one day loss of customers - and that's assuming you have 100 miles of water you can move it and still get out of the weather system.

The video included cities like Hong Kong and Singapore where moving 100 miles in any direction would put you out of reach of your customers (travelling via high-speed ferry for 3-4 hours over a rough sea to get to a 30-minute flight to the other side of the world might make waiting in an airport lounge seem kinda comfortable: puke on the way to the flight, whilst boarding the flight, during the flight and after the flight.. yay! what fun!).

« Last Edit: 10/02/2017 04:07 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Ludus

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #21 on: 10/02/2017 03:54 AM »
An honest question. 

If they're thinking about a BFR ASDS - why bother with land pads at all?

Build the rockets at a ship yard, so they go directly from factory to ASDS, and that's the end of that.

No road transport of any kind ever.  ASDS can hang out just a couple of mile off shore, come in to load large cargo, go back out.

People and Fuel go out to the ASDS so it stays off shore.

No weather issues either, since the ASDSs are mobile.

Iíd think SpaceX would consider it. It makes sense to launch initially from 39a, but after that is it worth building a BFR launch site at Boca Chica (in addition to the F9/FH) vs offshore on the first BFR ASDS?

Mobile Spaceports open up a lot of possibilities. Scaling to a global system is obviously much easier. The Air Force and Navy will have an interesting sumo match over who has jurisdiction over this concept. Remote air and naval bases of strategic importance like Diego Garcia or Guam arenít so remote if they have a spaceport and installing such a thing is a lot easier in every respect if it just floats in from a shipyard and stays off the coast. Politics, environmental impact, long term budget issues are all much reduced.

On this one I get the sense that Elon had this in mind for some time. Heís not a big fan of acronyms but SpaceX insisted on ASDS despite the fact it was a barge with some capacity to hold position without anchoring. BFR ASDS seems like Ohhh I get it, that really is an Autonomous Spaceport.


Offline CameronD

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #22 on: 10/02/2017 04:13 AM »
Let's just hope the Air Force / Navy wouldn't mistake an incoming BFR from Asia as hostile. :)
 
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Ludus

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #23 on: 10/02/2017 04:13 AM »
Although it was shown in the context of the point to point express idea, it seems at least as important as a general purpose Spaceport.

Cargo launched to space might be put in a container in a facility on land, brought out by ship and the container loaded into the BFS cargo with the hammerhead crane.

That would apply to hyper express shipping, satellite dispensers, cargo to/from space stations or the Moon.

Offline Archibald

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #24 on: 10/02/2017 06:05 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_offshore_base

The great thing is, you can land a BFR and then have an ATR-42 or 737 to carry the passengers to an airport.

Online meekGee

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #25 on: 10/02/2017 07:58 AM »
If the ASDS is truly mobile, it can get away from bad weather spots.

You still need to get to it, but 100 miles in each direction is not a big deal.

Unfortunately, 100 miles @ 5kts = 20 hours actually IS a big deal.. especially since that means your mobile platform is down for most of a day, meaning one day loss of customers - and that's assuming you have 100 miles of water you can move it and still get out of the weather system.

The video included cities like Hong Kong and Singapore where moving 100 miles in any direction would put you out of reach of your customers (travelling via high-speed ferry for 3-4 hours over a rough sea to get to a 30-minute flight to the other side of the world might make waiting in an airport lounge seem kinda comfortable: puke on the way to the flight, whilst boarding the flight, during the flight and after the flight.. yay! what fun!).
I agree with the timeline, but not with the impact.

Think of the ASDS as truly mobile  basically an aircraft carrier.

Keep an eye out on the weather  and be constantly on the move. Whether you stop (relative to GPS? Relative to the water?) During launch/land is immaterial.

But if you're mobile by default, you can have calm conditions much more of the time.
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Offline DreamyPickle

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #26 on: 10/02/2017 08:18 AM »
If they're thinking about a BFR ASDS - why bother with land pads at all?

You still need at least one land pad with large hangars for inspection and servicing, for example at Boca Chica or the Cape. Even if the floating pads have hangars at one end they would be small and doing all your maintenance at sea would get complicated and expensive.

Also it seem likely that any launches would require evacuating the pad of any personnel, or placing them in some sort of bunker. By measuring pixels in the video you get a ship length of ~300m, comparable to the some of the largest ships in the world. This is still a bit less than the distance between 39A and the HIF.

I wonder if they've actually begun to look into building such a thing. A prototype based on a retrofitted LNG barge could be used to land in the Gulf of Mexico from Boca Chica, refuel and fly back. This would be useful for early grasshopper-like testing if you want to test high horizontal velocity and reentry but can't turn around or get into orbit.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #27 on: 10/02/2017 09:04 AM »
If they're thinking about a BFR ASDS - why bother with land pads at all?

....
I wonder if they've actually begun to look into building such a thing. A prototype based on a retrofitted LNG barge could be used to land in the Gulf of Mexico from Boca Chica, refuel and fly back. This would be useful for early grasshopper-like testing if you want to test high horizontal velocity and reentry but can't turn around or get into orbit.

It might be easier to convert a medium size VLCC into a BFR ASDS. Will still retain self-propel capability.

Offline DreamyPickle

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #28 on: 10/02/2017 10:46 AM »
Quote
A prototype based on a retrofitted LNG barge could be used to land in the Gulf of Mexico from Boca Chica, refuel and fly back.
It might be easier to convert a medium size VLCC into a BFR ASDS. Will still retain self-propel capability.

LNG barges already have the required equipment for large-scale cryogenics on the high seas and they can use boiled-off methane for propulsion and power. However a lower flatter deck for easy handling might be more desirable than extra fuel storage.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2017 02:04 PM by DreamyPickle »

Offline speedevil

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #29 on: 10/02/2017 01:40 PM »
Although it was shown in the context of the point to point express idea, it seems at least as important as a general purpose Spaceport.

Cargo launched to space might be put in a container in a facility on land, brought out by ship and the container loaded into the BFS cargo with the hammerhead crane.

That would apply to hyper express shipping, satellite dispensers, cargo to/from space stations or the Moon.

If you look carefully  at the video,, it shows 40 cabins, all around 8 feet cubes. Not - quite - the standard 8 foot shipping container (yes, you can get stubby ones), but remarkably similar.
If you added circular rails, and one vertical rail, then you can load and offload these automatically. I note that the video also shows cargo being unloaded on the moon, from a crane which appears to be in an opening around this size too.

Loading passengers and cargo onto these would be a whole lot nicer than having to have them go in the open air, as well as faster, especially relevant at sea.

In principle, also, you can have 3-4 8m long containers.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2017 02:23 PM by speedevil »

Offline JamesH65

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #30 on: 10/02/2017 02:24 PM »
I'd do what Dubai did with the Palm Islands. They are entirely man made, the first jutting out 3.5M in to the Gulf. It has a monorail from one end to the other.

Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make a 10mile causeway out to an artificial island - less work that these UAE islands.

Offline Ludus

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #31 on: 10/02/2017 04:00 PM »
Just a thought that a mothership BFR ASDS might have several landing only ASDSs with it that are basically the same as current. It seems like a BFS could land on the current ASDS. This would allow more flexible operations than just one landing pad. The crane could lift BFSs from the smaller Landing ASDSs that come alongside.


Offline Ludus

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #32 on: 10/02/2017 04:13 PM »
I'd do what Dubai did with the Palm Islands. They are entirely man made, the first jutting out 3.5M in to the Gulf. It has a monorail from one end to the other.

Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make a 10mile causeway out to an artificial island - less work that these UAE islands.

Artificial islands though lose many of the benefits of manufactured ASDSs. They can only be built in a very limited range of locations in shallow water. They canít avoid storms. They canít be relocated once built. The canít be mass produced and deployed. They take much longer to put in place. They may not have suitable sites near some major ports or otherwise good locations.

Offline CameronD

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #33 on: 10/02/2017 10:29 PM »
Well... to repeat what was posted right here some months ago:  ::)

Since this is a la-la thread, why not...

Going with that theme.. ;)

IMHO, you'd be better off building an artificial island out there - or a cluster of really large oil platforms connected together, complete with lading pad(s), flyback facilities, helipads and as much crew accommodation as you need to run the entire show.

And by putting it out international waters, you could make it duty-fee and start your own country.



(The pic is from the movie "Waterworld" in case anyone was wondering)
« Last Edit: 10/02/2017 10:30 PM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Online meekGee

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #34 on: 10/05/2017 02:33 PM »
Well... to repeat what was posted right here some months ago:  ::)

Since this is a la-la thread, why not...

Going with that theme.. ;)

IMHO, you'd be better off building an artificial island out there - or a cluster of really large oil platforms connected together, complete with lading pad(s), flyback facilities, helipads and as much crew accommodation as you need to run the entire show.

And by putting it out international waters, you could make it duty-fee and start your own country.



(The pic is from the movie "Waterworld" in case anyone was wondering)
Btw, the la-la comment was from a thread about a hovercraft ASDS for F9, and I meant "la-la" as in "a fun hypothetical discussion not related to any actual plans"..

Just for context...
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Offline Flying Beaver

Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #35 on: 10/05/2017 09:26 PM »
Some Hi-Rez Screenshots.

Its a VERY basic 3d placeholder model. A quick <30 min job.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 09:27 PM by Flying Beaver »
Saw OG-2 Booster Land in person 21/12/2015.

Offline CameronD

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #36 on: 10/05/2017 10:57 PM »
Btw, the la-la comment was from a thread about a hovercraft ASDS for F9, and I meant "la-la" as in "a fun hypothetical discussion not related to any actual plans"..

Just for context...

Yeah, I know.  Whilst looking for the pic above, I saw your la-la comment and, feeling a strong sense of deja vu, decided to post the entire thing as, you say, "a fun hypothetical discussion not related to any actual plans".  :)
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Online meekGee

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #37 on: 10/06/2017 12:37 AM »
:)  The more of these the merrier..
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Offline Archibald

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #38 on: 10/06/2017 07:39 AM »
http://dynamic-positioning.com/proceedings/dp2003/design_berkeley.pdf

Quote
The Mobile Offshore Base (MOB) is a large, self-propelled, floating, pre-positioned ocean structure formed
of three to five modules and reaching up to 1,500 meters in length.
It must accommodate the landing and take-off  of  C-17  conventional  aircraft,  host  3000  troops,  carry  10  million  gallons  of  fuel  and  provide  3   million  square  feet  of  internal  configurable  storage.  The  alignment  of  the  modules  is  maintained  through   the use of slew-able thrusters and/or connectors.

Plenty of room for passengers, methane, LOX, and commuter aircrafts to carry the passengers. A C-17 is as big as an A350 or 787.
add some shopping malls, hotels, and other goodies.

Offline vanoord

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Re: BFR ASDS
« Reply #39 on: 10/06/2017 10:52 AM »
http://dynamic-positioning.com/proceedings/dp2003/design_berkeley.pdf

Quote
The Mobile Offshore Base (MOB) is a large, self-propelled, floating, pre-positioned ocean structure formed
of three to five modules and reaching up to 1,500 meters in length.
It must accommodate the landing and take-off  of  C-17  conventional  aircraft,  host  3000  troops,  carry  10  million  gallons  of  fuel  and  provide  3   million  square  feet  of  internal  configurable  storage.  The  alignment  of  the  modules  is  maintained  through   the use of slew-able thrusters and/or connectors.

Plenty of room for passengers, methane, LOX, and commuter aircrafts to carry the passengers. A C-17 is as big as an A350 or 787.
add some shopping malls, hotels, and other goodies.

Some of the models being tested bear a resemblance to Pioneering Spirit - https://allseas.com/equipment/pioneering-spirit/

That wouldn't be an entirely daft design to follow. The cost would be massive, but no reason that they would have to be entirely carried by SpaceX.
« Last Edit: 10/06/2017 10:56 AM by vanoord »

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