Firefly Space : Company and Development General Thread

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/firefly_space/status/1232666479335624704

Firefly is hiring! If you are in Austin, RSVP for our job fair on Saturday February, 29th from 10 am to 2 pm!

[ParabolicSnark]

These companies are usually always hiring, if only to be collecting details for interested applications that they may rely on in the future. If they're pushing out a job fair like this it means either:
1) they've been having a hard time getting qualified applicants to join
2) they're planning a larger, short-term growth in staff count (like when Virgin Orbit did they're career fair in...2014?)

Usually #2 is done by the companies that are in the mid-10's of employees trying to push into the 100's after getting a new round of funding. Firefly doesn't fit that bill here.

[ParabolicSnark]

Snopes has issued a follow up to the statements issued by Firefly and Noosphere Ventures: link.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/kevzag/status/1234892041970020352

Interesting profile of @Firefly_Space's Ukrainian factory:

https://ain.ua/2020/03/02/firefly-aerospace-v-dnepre-fotoreportazh/

Google translate version:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fain.ua%2F2020%2F03%2F02%2Ffirefly-aerospace-v-dnepre-fotoreportazh%2F

[ParabolicSnark]

Every time I see an article about Firefly's Ukrainian facilities I'm amazed at how the US State Department hasn't stepped in and shut things down. ITAR generally covers the "how" in the design and manufacturing processes and the fact that the manufacturing is done, particularly at this level, in Ukraine is shocking.

[gongora]

Every time I see an article about Firefly's Ukrainian facilities I'm amazed at how the US State Department hasn't stepped in and shut things down. ITAR generally covers the "how" in the design and manufacturing processes and the fact that the manufacturing is done, particularly at this level, in Ukraine is shocking.

Isn't the design also being done there though?

[russianhalo117]

Every time I see an article about Firefly's Ukrainian facilities I'm amazed at how the US State Department hasn't stepped in and shut things down. ITAR generally covers the "how" in the design and manufacturing processes and the fact that the manufacturing is done, particularly at this level, in Ukraine is shocking.

Isn't the design also being done there though?

You have to watch out for cynical snarks. FAI's Alpha is no different than NG's Antares first stage. Same company was contracted to design, build and test. Alphas engines were contracted out to ARH and are based on heavily modernized legacy engines which FAI's is taking these engine kits, building them up, testing them and certifying them. FAI is acting as an integrator initially taking over the whole process later. This has been done before. If ITAR wanted to kill this ARH and YDO would have tapped out long ago. 

[ParabolicSnark]

Isn't the design also being done there though?

You have to watch out for cynical snarks. FAI's Alpha is no different than NG's Antares first stage. Same company was contracted to design, build and test. Alphas engines were contracted out to ARH and are based on heavily modernized legacy engines which FAI's is taking these engine kits, building them up, testing them and certifying them. FAI is acting as an integrator initially taking over the whole process later. This has been done before. If ITAR wanted to kill this ARH and YDO would have tapped out long ago. 

If it's as you mention, yes, that's above board. It's the same way ULA operates buying Russian engines.

However, At least before Firefly's rebirth, all the design was being done in Texas. Unless they started over from scratch, there had to be some transfer for information in the beginning. I'd be surprised if all development is there now, meaning some transfer would be on-going. LinkedIn shows a substantial amount of engineers listed in at the Texas location, including at least one turbomachinery specialist and numerous propulsion engineers specifically referencing engine system design.

[ncb1397]

Just to help unpack the post above. I think I came up with an acronym reference (did it for myself really). Correct me if I am wrong.

FAI = Firefly Aerospace, Incorporated
YDO = Yuzhmash Design Office
ITAR = International Traffic in Arms Regulations
NG = Northrop Grumman
ARH = Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings

[PM3]

However, At least before Firefly's rebirth, all the design was being done in Texas. Unless they started over from scratch, there had to be some transfer for information in the beginning. I'd be surprised if all development is there now, meaning some transfer would be on-going.

Firefly USA before rebirth was developing a methalox aerospike engine. Firefly Ukraine is making a Kerolox tap-off cycle engine. That's much more likely derived from older Ukrainian designs than from the U.S. aerospike experiment.

[ncb1397]

However, At least before Firefly's rebirth, all the design was being done in Texas. Unless they started over from scratch, there had to be some transfer for information in the beginning. I'd be surprised if all development is there now, meaning some transfer would be on-going.

Firefly USA before rebirth was developing a methalox aerospike engine. Firefly Ukraine is making a Kerolox tap-off cycle engine. That's much more likely derived from older Ukrainian designs than from the U.S. aerospike experiment.

Part of the intellectual property dispute and resolution with virgin orbit, IIRC, was that they wouldn't pursue aerospike engines.

[russianhalo117]

Isn't the design also being done there though?

You have to watch out for cynical snarks. FAI's Alpha is no different than NG's Antares first stage. Same company was contracted to design, build and test. Alphas engines were contracted out to ARH and are based on heavily modernized legacy engines which FAI's is taking these engine kits, building them up, testing them and certifying them. FAI is acting as an integrator initially taking over the whole process later. This has been done before. If ITAR wanted to kill this ARH and YDO would have tapped out long ago. 

If it's as you mention, yes, that's above board. It's the same way ULA operates buying Russian engines.

However, At least before Firefly's rebirth, all the design was being done in Texas. Unless they started over from scratch, there had to be some transfer for information in the beginning. I'd be surprised if all development is there now, meaning some transfer would be on-going. LinkedIn shows a substantial amount of engineers listed in at the Texas location, including at least one turbomachinery specialist and numerous propulsion engineers specifically referencing engine system design.

There is not a middleman involved like ULA using RDAMROSS it is an approach more akin to Orbital before the Taurus-2 130 launch failure. FAI is not using domestic stages initially because they had issues and chose to ask for help. They are planning on launches abroad later. US production will ramp up soon with non domestic launcher stages being built at Yuzmash shops.

[ParabolicSnark]

Firefly USA before rebirth was developing a methalox aerospike engine. Firefly Ukraine is making a Kerolox tap-off cycle engine. That's much more likely derived from older Ukrainian designs than from the U.S. aerospike experiment.

It seems there is conflicting information about the original Firefly Alpha engine. Wikipedia says "The engine used methane, as opposed to RP-1." However their presentation on the aerospike at the 51st AIAA Joint Propulsion Conference showed a LOx/RP-1 aerospike with 10 thrusters around the spike.

[Prettz]

Firefly USA before rebirth was developing a methalox aerospike engine. Firefly Ukraine is making a Kerolox tap-off cycle engine. That's much more likely derived from older Ukrainian designs than from the U.S. aerospike experiment.

It seems there is conflicting information about the original Firefly Alpha engine. Wikipedia says "The engine used methane, as opposed to RP-1." However their presentation on the aerospike at the 51st AIAA Joint Propulsion Conference showed a LOx/RP-1 aerospike with 10 thrusters around the spike.

It started as a methane rocket but they changed to RP-1 when the methane autogenous pressurization didn't work out.

[novak]

Looks like speculation Tuesday. 

Comment:

However, At least before Firefly's rebirth, all the design was being done in Texas. Unless they started over from scratch, there had to be some transfer for information in the beginning. I'd be surprised if all development is there now, meaning some transfer would be on-going. LinkedIn shows a substantial amount of engineers listed in at the Texas location, including at least one turbomachinery specialist and numerous propulsion engineers specifically referencing engine system design.

A lot of people keep bringing up ITAR.  Not only is the state department aware of Firefly Ukraine, they are the ones who granted access to transfer said information.

https://tech.liga.net/technology/interview/maks-polyakov-firefly-aerospace-my-budem-delat-8-raket-v-god

We were given a license for TAA - Technical Assistance Agreement - a license under ITAR for cooperation between the two countries.

Comment:

FAI ... are planning on launches abroad later. US production will ramp up soon with non domestic launcher stages being built at Yuzmash shops.

This assertion appears to be false (at least it was false a year ago).  The article says:

I want to understand: can you make a complete rocket in the Dnieper?
- Can not. And this is illegal.

So clearly whatever the TAA was for, it wasn't transfer of an entire rocket design (As you might expect, if you've ever dealt with ITAR before).


Comment:

FAI's Alpha is no different than NG's Antares first stage. Same company was contracted to design, build and test. Alphas engines were contracted out to ARH and are based on heavily modernized legacy engines which FAI's is taking these engine kits, building them up, testing them and certifying them. FAI is acting as an integrator initially taking over the whole process later.

What about this? Is this conjecture, or do you have a source?

[john smith 19]

Firefly USA before rebirth was developing a methalox aerospike engine. Firefly Ukraine is making a Kerolox tap-off cycle engine. That's much more likely derived from older Ukrainian designs than from the U.S. aerospike experiment.

Kerolox tap-off?

That is quite novel, and much more interesting than the usual GG system.

It offers a potentially lighter and simpler system.  The joker (from the J-2S work) was ducting the hot, fuel rich combustion gas. With kero you're looking at possible clogging with the unburned fuel if its slowed down too much or gets too cold.

Not necessarily an issue for a single use engine, provided it's not test fired too many times to clog it up. AS it's a "full flow" engine it should offer a few more secs Isp at the same chamber pressure.  Important for a low mass system.

[russianhalo117]

Looks like speculation Tuesday. 

Comment:

However, At least before Firefly's rebirth, all the design was being done in Texas. Unless they started over from scratch, there had to be some transfer for information in the beginning. I'd be surprised if all development is there now, meaning some transfer would be on-going. LinkedIn shows a substantial amount of engineers listed in at the Texas location, including at least one turbomachinery specialist and numerous propulsion engineers specifically referencing engine system design.

A lot of people keep bringing up ITAR.  Not only is the state department aware of Firefly Ukraine, they are the ones who granted access to transfer said information.

https://tech.liga.net/technology/interview/maks-polyakov-firefly-aerospace-my-budem-delat-8-raket-v-god

We were given a license for TAA - Technical Assistance Agreement - a license under ITAR for cooperation between the two countries.

Comment:

FAI ... are planning on launches abroad later. US production will ramp up soon with non domestic launcher stages being built at Yuzmash shops.

This assertion appears to be false (at least it was false a year ago).  The article says:

I want to understand: can you make a complete rocket in the Dnieper?
- Can not. And this is illegal.

So clearly whatever the TAA was for, it wasn't transfer of an entire rocket design (As you might expect, if you've ever dealt with ITAR before).


Comment:

FAI's Alpha is no different than NG's Antares first stage. Same company was contracted to design, build and test. Alphas engines were contracted out to ARH and are based on heavily modernized legacy engines which FAI's is taking these engine kits, building them up, testing them and certifying them. FAI is acting as an integrator initially taking over the whole process later.

What about this? Is this conjecture, or do you have a source?

Where did i say a complete rocket?? I did not claim that.
Sources are per the press info released by said companies and IR filings. It has a very similar arrangement to Antares for initial production.

[ringsider]

Has anybody else noticed that the facilities shown by Firefly are the same ones shown by Skyrora?

[Ben]

The attempt at a rebuttal to the Snopes story about Firefly being funded by dating site scams is deeply weird. https://noosphereventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Statement.pdf

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Has anybody else noticed that the facilities shown by Firefly are the same ones shown by Skyrora?

Hmm ...

https://twitter.com/wikkit/status/1235257491832721408

"A Skyrora engineer next to a 3D printed rocket nozzle. Photo via Skyrora." in one article, vs. a photo from the article about Firefly's Ukraine operation. 3dprintingindustry.com/news/skyrora-p… - ain.ua/2020/03/02/fir…